Originally posted by Bardock42OMG, James Taylor's insatiable ego suddenly makes sense now.
You just call out God's name
And you know wherever he is
He'll come running to see you again
Winter, spring, summer or fall
All you have to do is call
And he'll be there
You've got a friend
I guess I should say OMJ.
If you're talking about biblical god, there isn't much special about him. It' just Middle Eastern Mythology mixed with historical figures for the most part. /shrug
People need to understand, what defines that biblical god, all knowing, all loving, all powerful, would make him a very evil, selfish, sadistic entity, and not one I'd like to Lord over me. Why? Because if he was always all knowing, he knew of the plague of satan. Yet he did nothing to avoid it when he's also all powerful and could do as he wishes. The level of perfection he demands is unreasonable to say the least, the room for error, essentially none, is likewise unreasonable when he created us and knew exactly how hard we'd be tempted. I don't much care for a god who created humans to fail, and allowed the ultimate evil to be unleashed on them because...he didn't feel like stopping it.
Originally posted by Damborgson
If you're talking about biblical god, there isn't much special about him. It' just Middle Eastern Mythology mixed with historical figures for the most part. /shrugPeople need to understand, what defines that biblical god, all knowing, all loving, all powerful, would make him a very evil, selfish, sadistic entity, and not one I'd like to Lord over me. Why? Because if he was always all knowing, he knew of the plague of satan. Yet he did nothing to avoid it when he's also all powerful and could do as he wishes. The level of perfection he demands is unreasonable to say the least, the room for error, essentially none, is likewise unreasonable when he created us and knew exactly how hard we'd be tempted. I don't much care for a god who created humans to fail, and allowed the ultimate evil to be unleashed on them because...he didn't feel like stopping it.
Or perhaps your views are incorrect, and you are seeing it from a negative perspective. In all fairness perhaps you should read the bible, if the God that you are speaking of is the one in the Bible. If not, keep on keeping on.
I'm hardly a scientific person either and have no intent on going all "big-bang this" or "evolution that" on anything. This is just common sense. If he has the power to help, chooses not to, NOTE CHOOSES not to, how could he possibly be all loving?
edit: Also, these aren't snippy questions or rhetorical ones, I'd love for my faith to be restored somehow. No joke.
Originally posted by Damborgson
You found a positive perspective for allowing Satan into the world? Despite knowing what he'd become? And having the power to prevent it? Feel free to explain.
As whacky as it may at first seem, Satan was placed here to keep man from going to Hell. Bad things happen to good people, it's the way of the world. The Bible says that God will be a debtor to no man. He has given us all the power to shape the world, and keep from interfering in our choices. The key words here are Our Choices. It is us that wage war against each other, and do many unspeakable evils to each other. Not God.
People who blame Satan for every bad thing that happens are likely on the road to becoming reprobates, and at all times we have to claim ownership of the bullshit that we do, and stop blaming God for this, or Satan for that. I am not saying that they don't exist, because i believe that they do. Satan has a purpose, and from what I read from you, you live your life from an entirely carnal perspective, which isn't a terrible thing, after all we are all flesh. However you seem to not be able to see the spiritual portion written in the Bible. People believing that God is only Love, are completely deluded. he has more sides than we likely have words for.
You can:
A: Read the Bible, and make of it what you may.
OR
B: Do as you do, and keep on keeping on.
Shrugs
Originally posted by Stoic
As whacky as it may at first seem, Satan was placed here to keep man from going to Hell. Bad things happen to good people, it's the way of the world. The Bible says that God will be a debtor to no man. He has given us all the power to shape the world, and keep from interfering in our choices. The key words here are [b]Our Choices. It is us that wage war against each other, and do many unspeakable evils to each other. Not God.People who blame Satan for every bad thing that happens are likely on the road to becoming reprobates, and at all times we have to claim ownership of the bullshit that we do, and stop blaming God for this, or Satan for that. I am not saying that they don't exist, because i believe that they do. Satan has a purpose, and from what I read from you, you live your life from an entirely carnal perspective, which isn't a terrible thing, after all we are all flesh. However you seem to not be able to see the spiritual portion written in the Bible. People believing that God is only Love, are completely deluded. he has more sides than we likely have words for.
You can:
A: Read the Bible, and make of it what you may.OR
B: Do as you do, and keep on keeping on.
Shrugs [/B]
I can understand that. God can't be there to stop every stupid thing man does. But, what about a baby born with bone cancer that wasn't even capable of forming a coherent thought. It suffers horribly for a month then dies. That God even allows such suffering is something that never stood well with me even when I was in faith. Now I know it's because he's not really listening unfortunately. I don't blame anything anymore, it's just the way it is.
I don't blame him for anything because I don't believe he exists. At least not in that interpretation. Evil exists though, that could represent him in a way, but it's mostly from humans.
It's those sides that contradict him endlessly throughout the book. He's the type of god that will kill children. Innocent children. Or make a father kill his son because he wanted to test his faith. Being all knowing, he'd have known without a doubt already. Which means he did it for what...pleasure? that's sick. And you're leaning heavily on something you can't understand because? If indeed God had such amazing plans, he'd express them in ways we can't even imagine. He's completely human in his responses in the bible to problems. Because he was created by humans. He speaks against jealousy and proudly boasts he's a jealous god for goodness sake.
A. Where did that assumption that I didn't read the bible come from?
B. We're just having a chat. Do you mean keep on that?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What were you before now?How did you gain your faith the first time, and how did you lose it?
I was Catholic/Christian
I was just born into it. Private school and all that. I just couldn't deal with so many contradictions in the bible and repeated silence to my prayers. Like praying for someone to get better and waking up the next morning to find out they died, that's what happened to who would have been my baby niece. She suffered horribly for a couple of weeks, then died of a viral infection. You can bet the entire family prayed its heart out for her to be saved.
Some people rationalized it as God using the baby as a means to get the family together. I realized how sick it was for god to let a baby die so we'd pray to him.
Originally posted by DamborgsonIf he has the power to help, chooses not to, NOTE CHOOSES not to, how could he possibly be all loving?
The dynamics at work in relationships among people probably aren't all that analogous to a relationship with God, and it's probably a mistake to respond to this with commentary meant to illustrate good practice with the former.
I'll go ahead and do so anyway, however, on the chance it might give you a different perspective, for not everything most people THINK of as kind and loving actually IS kind and loving or results in a good outcome in real life.
Note that this is ONLY a partial answer, one-fifth of an answer, maybe, and is best understood in the context of the book it appears in (link to a few pages of the book's contents included below).
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24. Don't give up, and don't give in. It is unkind to shield people from the consequences of their own behavior. In doing so, we teach them they are inadequate and weak. When we give in to irresponsible behavior by excusing it or sympathizing with it, we condone and foster spoiled, law-unto-self behavior. And if we give up -- by ignoring people or tearing into them -- we undermine their motivation to try. The discipline of Don't give up, and don't give in, tempered with love, comes from responsible, disciplined living. Otherwise we take the course of least resistance -- giving in when we care or giving up when we don't.
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Principle Centered Leadership. Stephen R. Covey. Thirty Methods of Influence.
(#24)
http://books.google.com/books?id=goRg0jK_hEAC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=%22thirty+methods+of+influence%22+stephen+covey&source=bl&ots=gZxuddku6G&sig=vssSMVmHRQBzJx6XX1pNRIuIUm4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2Ax8U_TxC8ekyASx0YCwAg&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22thirty%20methods%20of%20influence%22%20stephen%20covey&f=false
Originally posted by Damborgson
I was Catholic/ChristianI was just born into it. Private school and all that. I just couldn't deal with so many contradictions in the bible and repeated silence to my prayers ...
The part after the ellipse (...) is extremely personal and difficult to address in a forum setting. I'd be uncomfortable in even trying to address that right now, am not sure I'm equipped to, and think for now that would best saved for private messaging if in the future you ever even wanted me to.
But I might be able to address some of the more general issues you allude to at the beginning of your response here.
I'm especially curious for instance, right now: What contradictions in the Bible do you think exist? Can you show me some of them?
Originally posted by Damborgson
I can understand that. God can't be there to stop every stupid thing man does. But, what about a baby born with bone cancer that wasn't even capable of forming a coherent thought. It suffers horribly for a month then dies. That God even allows such suffering is something that never stood well with me even when I was in faith. Now I know it's because he's not really listening unfortunately. I don't blame anything anymore, it's just the way it is.I don't blame him for anything because I don't believe he exists. At least not in that interpretation. Evil exists though, that could represent him in a way, but it's mostly from humans.
It's those sides that contradict him endlessly throughout the book. He's the type of god that will kill children. Innocent children. Or make a father kill his son because he wanted to test his faith. Being all knowing, he'd have known without a doubt already. Which means he did it for what...pleasure? that's sick. And you're leaning heavily on something you can't understand because? If indeed God had such amazing plans, he'd express them in ways we can't even imagine. He's completely human in his responses in the bible to problems. Because he was created by humans. He speaks against jealousy and proudly boasts he's a jealous god for goodness sake.
A. Where did that assumption that I didn't read the bible come from?
B. We're just having a chat. Do you mean keep on that?
You say that you understand that God can not be there to stop every single stupid thing that we do, but he could, he chooses not to according to the bible. He gave us all a will to do good or bad. But because he is a just God, he remains in a position of non interference. Therefore he is not at fault for any of our actions. We are at fault for every ill that befalls us. It's not God that pollutes the atmosphere, or kills every animal on the face of the planet, that would be us doing all of those evils.
The bible speaks of generational curses. These curses could have been in place several generations ago. Perhaps the baby that dies of cancer was from a line of evil people that practiced evil things. Yes I mean people practicing witch craft for their own personal gain, and the baby was meant to pay for those sins as they are, and were yolked to the curse before they were ever born. Perhaps it wasn't a curse at all, and just a medical condition, and that child was never meant for this world. Like I said bad things happen to good people.
What children did he kill? Are you speaking of Abraham's son Isaac? God doesn't know without a doubt, because he gave us something that offsets probability... Will. The will to do what we want to do. It is your choice to believe whatever it is that you do. It's your choice to sleep with another mans wife, or give a pregnant woman your seat while riding on a bus. Life is about what you will do, but there is a payment for everything that you choose to do, whether for good, or ill.
God neither needs our love, or asks for it. However he asks for our obedience because in our obedience we show our love. You can say all of the negative things that you choose to about God, but it doesn't change the fact that he never did anything wrong. It's all about us. We do the wrongs in this world, and use God as a scapegoat.
Many people that die today would never have died if we did not tamper with so many things. In our endeavors to make life comfortable, we sometimes screw up our world. Was it God that spilled crude oil all over the oceans? What happens if this is the reason that babies die of cancer? What if it is from the foul water that their mothers unknowingly ingested. The bible says that every person is given a measure of faith. My faith may be greater than yours, I don't know, perhaps it isn't. Either you WILL, or you WON'T.
"I am just, so I will not interfere."
"But Lord, some of the evil doers amongst us are causing destruction and death. We can't will them away out of choice, we are only mortal. But you could, Lord. Please, won't you will them away, out of a love for us, and for justice?"
"No, I am just. Therefore I never interfere, even when you are powerless to stop the evil that I invented and allow to exist."
Either God is suffering from an unusual variation of the bystander effect, or God is a monstrous entity with no regard for our lives.
God repented for making man Lucien. Like I said it's up to you to believe what you want to believe in. He also said that he would not be a debtor to anyone, because he doesn't owe us a thing. Meanwhile all I see is a bunch of sniveling from people complaining about all of the bullshit in this world, but not counting all of the really amazing things in it. before attempting to make God the scapegoat of all of the garbage in this world, why not look at the spirit of man? Why the hell does God have to wipe our asses every time we take a shit? Anyone that thinks that he should have to put up with that type of mess must find it rather difficult to claim ownership of their doings.
No. You see you have your beliefs, and others have theirs. Perhaps if you studied the bible you may get an answer to your question, or was that a statement? I really can't tell. I'll give you a hint though. For God loved the world, and those in it. Automatons is what he made before us. Perfect in every way, but they were made to automatically love him, and he sought something else. He wanted his creations to love him on their own, and this is why we were given a will. No other creature made can boast as much as we can. We shape the world, and anything in it that does not abide by our will <-- (there's that word again) is either caged, or eliminated. In the end, you will do as you want to do. Isn't that wonderful? or would you have preferred that he made us love him?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Stoic, that was a statement. I have read the bible. I studied to be a preacher when I was young.
Oh OK, so then throw your hands in the air, and wave em like you just don't care 😛 .
Seriously though, there is only only one truth concerning the existence of God. Either he is real, or he isn't. I like insurance, and I will be obedient, and continue to learn about God. If there are those that want to follow him, I will always point them in the direction to the best of my abilities. My wife is currently on assignment in Nigeria she's a Civil Engineer, and a week ago she became very sick (this of course happened just as she is about to come home in a few weeks from now), and I didn't know if she would have made it. She contracted malaria, and I cried, and didn't sleep for 2 days, because I knew that there was a good chance that you can die from it. So I prayed to God, and she came out of it while in the hospital. I believe that God is wonderful, and he was kind to us, and he has given us a little more time to be together before we inevitably die. It can happen at any time, but we were given an amazing gift from my perspective and hers.