Originally posted by Nephthys
No its not. Shes losing.She does overpower him in a saberlock though. 😬
Meh. It was definitely a serious challenge for him anyway.
Point is I don't know why this is even a discussion anymore. Filoni said years ago that ROTS was the first time Kenobi gets Grievous in a one on one fair situation and that's when he batters him.
He's also said regarding Ventress vs Grievous that Grievous isn't a match for someone of Ventress's caliber. And I doubt anyone here is going to argue Ventress is in a caliber above Kenobi.
Meh. It was definitely a serious challenge for him anyway.
*References to above post*
Point is I don't know why this is even a discussion anymore. Filoni said years ago that ROTS was the first time Kenobi gets Grievous in a one on one fair situation
I don't see how this is relevant--Grievous is dirty, it's part of his usual fighting style.
and that's when he batters him.
What? Sure, Obi-Wan held the dominant edge after scoring a strike that took off a couple of Grievous's arms, but Grievous definitely wasn't a sitting duck in that fight.
Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-
The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it.
He's also said regarding Ventress vs Grievous that Grievous isn't a match for someone of Ventress's caliber. And I doubt anyone here is going to argue Ventress is in a caliber above Kenobi.
No, but I would argue that Ventress is in the same caliber as Kenobi. I'd also point out that Ventress was influenced by the residual dark power provided by Dathomiir.
Grievous has defeated Ventress before.
NewGuy01
I don't see how this is relevant--Grievous is dirty, it's part of his usual fighting style.
NewGuy01
What? Sure, Obi-Wan held the dominant edge after scoring a strike that took off a couple of Grievous's arms, but Grievous definitely wasn't a sitting duck in that fight.
NewGuy01
Grievous has defeated Ventress before.
If you're drawing from Legends material (which I would understand, in context) then Dooku's lectures apply, too. If the Revenge of the Sith novel stands Grievous still has whatever accolades Windu provided him, if not necessarily anything else from their duel in Labyrinth of Evil. He's obviously a demanding offensive presence, but it's apparent (especially in Legends material) that he lacks the prescience, power or nuance necessary to actually defeat any of the era's top dogs in a "fair" fight (i.e. no surprise, no help, both parties in good health).
It's relevant because neither summoning the MagnaGuards nor fleeing are usually viable in these versus fights.
Grievous has never called on his MagnaGuards to gain an advantage against Obi-Wan. I'm not exactly sure how whether or not he flees is relevant to the fairness of a fight?
About twenty five seconds after the first clash of lightsabers Grievous is down two hands.
And during those thirty* five seconds, Grievous breaks the defenses of the greatest Soresu user in the mythos, and is a "hairsbreadth" from slicing through his head.
Obi-Wan was able to take out two of his arms by suddenly switching to an offensive fighting method while Grievous was in mid-attack. After he lost those arms, Kenobi didn't take another. (Though admittedly the fight was interrupted not long after that.)
Dooku's lectures apply, too.
That's right, nothing Dooku said contradicts me. In fact, now that you mention it, Dooku in LoE mused that he had a hard time defeating Grievous in their sparring matches.
He's obviously a demanding offensive presence, but it's apparent (especially in Legends material) that he lacks the prescience, power or nuance necessary to actually defeat any of the era's top dogs in a "fair" fight.
But my original point to begin with is that you would have to be a top dog to defeat him in the first place, which Kit Fisto did. If Grievous has fought on par with the likes of Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Fisto should be somewhere around that level of capability as well.
Revan can't take three fighters of that caliber.
Emperordmb
Obviously we're talking about legends if Revan is an entire side in this matchup.
Obviously.
This is getting longer than intended, so tl;dr:
1) I don't think Grievous could pretty much ever beat Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, or several other PT standouts under neutral conditions, so I take issue with the suggestion that he's on their level.
2) Since that probably has little to do with your argument as it pertains to the OP, sorry. Nitpicks.
NewGuy01
Grievous has never called on his MagnaGuards to gain an advantage against Obi-Wan.
NewGuy01
I'm not exactly sure how whether or not he flees is relevant to the fairness of a fight?
NewGuy01
And during those thirty* five seconds, Grievous breaks the defenses of the greatest Soresu user in the mythos, and is a "hairsbreadth" from slicing through his head.
Eminence
About twenty five seconds after the first clash of lightsabers Grievous is down two hands.
Breaks his defenses, is a hairsbreadth from slicing through his head, and doesn't actually touch him. Obi-Wan almost gets shot to rags by a bunch of battle droids in Labyrinth of Evil; Mace Windu almost falls to Jango Fett and almost takes a bolt to the head in Shatterpoint. I would think close calls are sort of par for the course in swordfights and CQC in general.
Spoiler:
no pun intended.
NewGuy01
Obi-Wan was able to take out two of his arms by suddenly switching to an offensive fighting method while Grievous was in mid-attack. After he lost those arms, Kenobi didn't take another. (Though admittedly the fight was interrupted not long after that.)
NewGuy01
That's right, nothing Dooku said contradicts me. In fact, now that you mention it, Dooku in LoE mused that he had a hard time defeating Grievous in their sparring matches.
Then again, earlier he expresses the belief that "few, if any" Jedi could overcome Grievous' combat skills, so... I dunno.
I also don't know where everybody falls on the non-contradictory elements of the CWC, but there he counsels the General to have "fear, surprise, and intimidation" on his side against "the best of the Jedi," and to retreat should any of those advantages be missing. He says Grievous must "break" them before engaging them or victory isn't ensured, which I guess taken literally indicates that Dooku does think he could have a chance.
NewGuy01
But my original point to begin with is that you would have to be a top dog to defeat him in the first place, which Kit Fisto did. If Grievous has fought on par with the likes of Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Fisto should be somewhere around that level of capability as well.
I'd argue that Grievous fighting Mace to a stalemate while significantly disadvantaged by the terrain would be considered "on par".
However, as I said before, it's irrelevant. You are adding to my initial point: Grievous was capable of challenging the likes of Dooku, Mace, and Obi-Wan in a one on one lightsaber duel, and as you said, in single combat, the B-Team members are all better than he.
Revan would have to be significantly greater than the likes of Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi to outmatch these three for a majority.
Originally posted by NewGuy01I don't see how this is relevant--Grievous is dirty, it's part of his usual fighting style.
Yeah but getting help is playing dirty. That doesn't make Grievous a better fencer or anything, so pointless discussing that.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
What? Sure, Obi-Wan held the dominant edge after scoring a strike that took off a couple of Grievous's arms, but Grievous definitely wasn't a sitting duck in that fight.Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-
The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it.
Are you high? Kenobi completely thrashed Grievous in ROTS. And that was Grievous at his peak mind you, since he was getting trained by Dooku through TCW, and even references such in the ROTS battle despite having fought Kenobi many times before.
Movie trumps the novel any day.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, but I would argue that Ventress is in the same caliber as Kenobi. I'd also point out that Ventress was influenced by the residual dark power provided by Dathomiir.Grievous has defeated Ventress before.
It doesn't matter, because Filoni made it clear that Grievous is no match for a Jedi of Ventress's caliber, dark side nexus or not. Remember she never even once used Force TK on him.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Grievous has never called on his MagnaGuards to gain an advantage against Obi-Wan. I'm not exactly sure how whether or not he flees is relevant to the fairness of a fight?
Yes he has. In "Grievous Intrigue." And he still lost to Kenobi.
Originally posted by Eminence
This is getting longer than intended, so tl;dr:
1) I don't think Grievous could pretty much ever beat Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, or several other PT standouts under neutral conditions, so I take issue with the suggestion that he's on their level.
👆 As do I.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
In what I consider to be ambiguously canon material, Ventress TKed Grievous, and he sprang back up.
Like you said it's ambigous canon, but again doesn't really matter, because the higher canon (TCW) made it pretty clear that a Jedi Council level member would dominate Grievous with TK.
Koth does it, Fisto does it and Kenobi does it. It would be silly to think Ventress couldn't do it, as her force powers are probably greater than any of those three.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
In what I consider to be ambiguously canon material, Ventress TKed Grievous, and he sprang back up.
Like you said it's ambigous canon, but again doesn't really matter, because the higher canon (TCW) made it pretty clear that a Jedi Council level member would dominate Grievous with TK.
Koth does it, Fisto does it and Kenobi constantly does it. It would be silly to think Ventress couldn't do it, as her force powers are probably greater than any of those three.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We've been over this several times yet you refuse to accept Kenobi is clearly beyond Grievous even though Dave Filoni had made that clear.
And you're just as wrong now as you were then. Filoni's made it clear that Grievous is a threat to Kenobi in combat by portraying it in his own series, otherwise Obi Wan wouldn't have consistently struggled with the cybor. If Filoni has said otherwise, then he's contradicting what is displayed for us onscreen.
^Grievous barely interfered when Kenobi was facing the magnaguards. From 1:55 to 2:36 was a one on one match between Kenobi and GG, with Grievous holding the upper hand throughout the fight (which is far too long for Kenobi to be considered "beyond" Grievous) until Obi Wan used the force on him. There was also plenty of room for Obi Wan to maneuver. He wasn't as limited as you are suggesting. Hell, their fight in ROTS didn't even take up as much room. Don't act as if Obi Wan requires a football field worth of room.
^This fight has Grievous giving Kenobi a ragdoll treatment, which, again, wouldn't have happened if Kenobi was "beyond" GG. In fact, Grievous just stands there talking while he had Kenobi floored, giving Obi Wan the opportunity to use a powerful force push on him.
^About 2:37. This fight actually had Kenobi relying on outside help instead of Grievous, which was more help than the magnaguards have ever provided Grievous.
Then there is their clash in "The Deserter," which had Grievous getting the best of Obi Wan, leaving Kenobi down long enough for him to escape from republic forces.
You can argue until you're blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that Grievous has consistently posed a threat to Kenobi in saber combat, and that Kenobi has never decisively beat GG up until ROTS.
Also, I don't know why you always bring up Ahsoka's duel with GG, as it doesn't change the consistent struggle Kenobi has had with him. Perhaps GG wasn't taking her seriously as Newguy pointed out, or maybe it was a low showing for GG. Either way, Obi Wan's struggles against Grievous are far too consistent to ignore.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And you're just as wrong now as you were then. Filoni's made it clear that Grievous is a threat to Kenobi in combat by portraying it in his own series, otherwise Obi Wan wouldn't have consistently struggled with the cybor. If Filoni has said otherwise, then he's contradicting what is displayed for us
Lol ok you know better than the director of TCW on what he was portraying.
Yes he struggled in the past, but only due to circumstances. Filoni had made it clear that the reason Kenobi battered Grievous in ROTS was because that was the first time he got him out in the open for a fair one on one.
He's also stated he doesn't think Grievous can match a Jedi of Ventress' s caliber.
So your the one who can deny it until your blue in the face, and keep praising the odd kick Grievous gets on Kenobi before Kenobi smashes him and Grievous runs like a b****. It doesn't change the fact that Filoni's words and Kenobi vs Grievous's final battle in ROTS prove Kenobi was simply above Grievous and by fair margin.