Originally posted by abhilegendhe said "Kryptonian based" so that would remove DD and Mongul (?)
He assigned a heir for himself in DC One million actually.
Actually Lex would be even more of a monster if Superman wasn't present to keep his attention and obsession to himself. Remember 52 where Superman wasn't present and Lex pretty much committed genocide?What kryptonian enemies are on earth anyway? Most of them are in phantom zone. But you're telling me Darkseid or Mongul would stop attacking earth because Superman isn't on earth?
Superman's legacy is enough to inspire Earth, it isn't feasible if he doesn't exists. Remember JLA: The Nail?
Originally posted by abhilegend
He assigned a heir for himself in DC One million actually.
Actually Lex would be even more of a monster if Superman wasn't present to keep his attention and obsession to himself. Remember 52 where Superman wasn't present and Lex pretty much committed genocide?What kryptonian enemies are on earth anyway? Most of them are in phantom zone. But you're telling me Darkseid or Mongul would stop attacking earth because Superman isn't on earth?
Superman's legacy is enough to inspire Earth, it isn't feasible if he doesn't exists. Remember JLA: The Nail?
Oh god... I told myself I wouldn't respond but my fingers are acting of their own accord. Insanity ensues. 😛
Firstly, we are hypothesizing about a world in which Superman is no longer a part of, not a world where superheroes doesn't exist. What hero would willfully let something of the sort happen in this particular case. The whole idea behind this thread was to discuss who would fill the gap left behind.
Concerning Lex, that was one such instance. And it doesn't particularly deviate from my 'crazy would present differently' statement. It doesn't necessarily make him any more of a monster either, just one with a different focus. Regardless, this is a reality where other heroes would be there to stop him, and its more than likely that a Lex without Superman would be a much less creative person and thus easier to stop. I reason this because of how inventive, cunning and manipulative Lex had to be in order to make his natural state of physical inferiority negligible in relation to Superman.
Moving on. You've misunderstood. In a prior post I stated, "Obviously there are always exceptions, mostly in the form of extraterrestrial threats, especially with the long standing trend in fiction that the Earth is the crux of everything. Even in imaginary worlds we can't help but be self-involved," recognizing that there would always be exceptions. Even earlier than that, I made my position clear that I believed that Superman's absence would allow other characters to meet their intended potential. As such, I believe certain characters would rise to the challenges that villain's such as Darkseid or Mongul may present. Superman's existence enforces an age old status quo. Superman gone would likely break it and as a result give others the freedom to write their characters as they saw fit without adhering to an established hierarchy, which clearly exists in-universe and out. Could you imagine the uproar if Superman was no longer the top dog? And I mean that in every sense of the word. That said, there would then be no reason why some of these characters couldn't replicate Superman's feats or other aspects of his character, especially when they have shown similar capacities throughout their careers. We've seen other characters lead and inspire in much the same way, maybe not to the same extent but how could they ever hope to when Superman is written to be an all encompassing character? Secondly, I presented a hypothetical scenario that done away with all Kryptonian threats, past, present and future, deviating from the OP and assuming he hadn't arrived on Earth at all. Without Superman, there is no reason for any remaining Kryptonians to even come within the general vicinity of our solar system.
Next up, the idea presents many new and interesting opportunities to explore how certain characters would deal with things Superman regularly faced and in many an instance, with relative ease. I'd personally find it interesting to read stories involving some of the lesser characters (in regard to popularity and power) formulating creative methods in which to deal with scenarios that Superman would usually address. Given, Superman does do things with a certain energy unique to him; it's usually cool or flashy, and in most cases fun. 'Superman' and 'impressive' are two closely associated words as a result. It doesn't stop me from finding the majority of his showings formulaic and uninspired. Admittedly, he's not the only character that suffers from this. It's just that it bothers me to a greater extent because he's better than that. Well....he could be. He's got more going on for him than what is usually shown. He doesn't need all these super flashy, grandiose feats that establish him leagues beyond his would-be peers. As you can hopefully see I don't hate the character, rather I take issue with how he is portrayed. There are qualities I like about him. They just don't happen to exceed the number of qualities I dislike.
Nearly there now. While Superman may have an unparalleled legacy, there are other characters who have done just as much, given as much, and struggled as much, all in the name of a little blue planet known as Earth. He gets far too much credit but that's to be expected when everything is written to be so Superman-centric. He overshadows when he needn't. There's room enough.
Lastly, what you see as inspiration, I see as a double edged sword. He may inspire and bring hope, but he also creates a false sense of security. The people take his presence for granted but what happens when the day comes and Superman is nowhere to be found? They've spent so long depending on him that they've forgotten how to fend for themselves as there was never a need to. It's that fight inside of all of us that makes us what we are. Makes us special. A Superman-dependent society is essentially a society that has relinquished that fight in faith that their messiah figure will always be there to protect them. As we know, Superman isn't the immortal, infallible figure he is perceived to be. His legacy perhaps, but not the man himself. In turn, how could other heroes ever hope to live up to his name when they were never given a proper chance?
Sorry for the wall of text by the way. I hadn't intended it to be so long. Apparently I had more to say than originally thought.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Who?
Originally posted by Orrsome28
Oh god... I told myself I wouldn't respond but my fingers are acting of their own accord. Insanity ensues. 😛Firstly, we are hypothesizing about a world in which Superman is no longer a part of, not a world where superheroes doesn't exist. What hero would willfully let something of the sort happen in this particular case. The whole idea behind this thread was to discuss who would fill the gap left behind.
Concerning Lex, that was one such instance. And it doesn't particularly deviate from my 'crazy would present differently' statement. It doesn't necessarily make him any more of a monster either, just one with a different focus. Regardless, this is a reality where other heroes would be there to stop him, and its more than likely that a Lex without Superman would be a much less creative person and thus easier to stop. I reason this because of how inventive, cunning and manipulative Lex had to be in order to make his natural state of physical inferiority negligible in relation to Superman.
Moving on. You've misunderstood. In a prior post I stated, "Obviously there are always exceptions, mostly in the form of extraterrestrial threats, especially with the long standing trend in fiction that the Earth is the crux of everything. Even in imaginary worlds we can't help but be self-involved," recognizing that there would always be exceptions. Even earlier than that, I made my position clear that I believed that Superman's absence would allow other characters to meet their intended potential. As such, I believe certain characters would rise to the challenges that villain's such as Darkseid or Mongul may present. Superman's existence enforces an age old status quo. Superman gone would likely break it and as a result give others the freedom to write their characters as they saw fit without adhering to an established hierarchy, which clearly exists in-universe and out. Could you imagine the uproar if Superman was no longer the top dog? And I mean that in every sense of the word. That said, there would then be no reason why some of these characters couldn't replicate Superman's feats or other aspects of his character, especially when they have shown similar capacities throughout their careers. We've seen other characters lead and inspire in much the same way, maybe not to the same extent but how could they ever hope to when Superman is written to be an all encompassing character? Secondly, I presented a hypothetical scenario that done away with all Kryptonian threats, past, present and future, deviating from the OP and assuming he hadn't arrived on Earth at all. Without Superman, there is no reason for any remaining Kryptonians to even come within the general vicinity of our solar system.
Next up, the idea presents many new and interesting opportunities to explore how certain characters would deal with things Superman regularly faced and in many an instance, with relative ease. I'd personally find it interesting to read stories involving some of the lesser characters (in regard to popularity and power) formulating creative methods in which to deal with scenarios that Superman would usually address. Given, Superman does do things with a certain energy unique to him; it's usually cool or flashy, and in most cases fun. 'Superman' and 'impressive' are two closely associated words as a result. It doesn't stop me from finding the majority of his showings formulaic and uninspired. Admittedly, he's not the only character that suffers from this. It's just that it bothers me to a greater extent because he's better than that. Well....he could be. He's got more going on for him than what is usually shown. He doesn't need all these super flashy, grandiose feats that establish him leagues beyond his would-be peers. As you can hopefully see I don't hate the character, rather I take issue with how he is portrayed. There are qualities I like about him. They just don't happen to exceed the number of qualities I dislike.
Nearly there now. While Superman may have an unparalleled legacy, there are other characters who have done just as much, given as much, and struggled as much, all in the name of a little blue planet known as Earth. He gets far too much credit but that's to be expected when everything is written to be so Superman-centric. He overshadows when he needn't. There's room enough.
Lastly, what you see as inspiration, I see as a double edged sword. He may inspire and bring hope, but he also creates a false sense of security. The people take his presence for granted but what happens when the day comes and Superman is nowhere to be found? They've spent so long depending on him that they've forgotten how to fend for themselves as there was never a need to. It's that fight inside of all of us that makes us what we are. Makes us special. A Superman-dependent society is essentially a society that has relinquished that fight in faith that their messiah figure will always be there to protect them. As we know, Superman isn't the immortal, infallible figure he is perceived to be. His legacy perhaps, but not the man himself. In turn, how could other heroes ever hope to live up to his name when they were never given a proper chance?
Sorry for the wall of text by the way. I hadn't intended it to be so long. Apparently I had more to say than originally thought.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730605/000rw9ce-3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730606/000rw9ce-4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730607/000rw9ce-5.jpg.html
I could point you towards many such stories where all of these points have been made and countered. And Superman doesn't stagnate anyone's potential, leave that stuff for battleboards. He leads, inspires and protects people. Often from themselves.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman Secundus.
TL: DR. There is a story regarding what you're saying though. One of the best stories I've read actually.http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730605/000rw9ce-3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730606/000rw9ce-4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730607/000rw9ce-5.jpg.htmlI could point you towards many such stories where all of these points have been made and countered. And Superman doesn't stagnate anyone's potential, leave that stuff for battleboards. He leads, inspires and protects people. Often from themselves.
I'll try and take you on your word. Those scans however represent so many of the issues I have with Superman and addresses so few of the points I made. Other than touting a boatload of American propaganda with a casual disregard for many of the people who helped build that very country, not to mention basically saying begone with culture and history that doesn't belong to the U.S, it doesn't do much to make me believe in Superman's struggle. Evidently, Superman unnecessarily shoulders the burden alone when he needn't. He lives in a world rife with potential; an abundance of heroes willing and capable of relieving that very burden. But no, why take away one of Superman's only consistent struggles, as superficial as it is? If he conducted himself differently the people would view him differently. If he was torn over not saving one life out of billions then the burden is his alone because he himself established the unattainable expectation that has since been pressed upon him. He doesn't have my sympathy that's for sure. And all it took were the words of some random stranger to console him. The depth of his regret... It's staggering.
You also keep deviating from the OP's stipulated scenario, preferring to deal with already explored interpretations of alternate worlds. As far as I'm concerned they hold little weight in this discussion. Admittedly, I too did pose a hypothetical question outside of the original, which apparently you didn't care for since you didn't bother to address it. This is meant to be a current 'Superman dies tomorrow - who fills his role?' type of scenario to which you're only contribution was, "Thor is too weak. Krypto would do a better job." It leads me to believe that no one holds a candle to the boy in blue in your mind.
On second thoughts. Really? All of my points countered? You'll have to forgive my disbelief. Especially since many of my points were in relation to real world issues such as the unwavering status quo and lack of writing freedoms as a result. And as such, I do believe Superman is a man from a bygone era, written as if he were still the most relevant and enveloping character comic fiction has witnessed. I spoke of breaking the mold... Letting other characters come into their own without Superman being the center focus, the one true hero, the only man that can save the good people of Earth. He is after all, in a paraphrasing of your own words , a character that can, "survive being thrown through the Earth's core whilst being in a 'nearly depowered' state." It speaks volumes for not only his character but others that will never have the opportunity to step outside of his shadow.
Wrapping it up or my version of it at least, I don't see how you can make such a weightless claim about him leading, inspiring and protecting humanity. He mustn't do a very good job of the first two. The third's pretty much a given considering he's often shown that he can defy any imposed limitations with as much as a simple 'nope, not happening!' attitude. But I digress. What great achievement of humanity's has Superman bore witness to? What profound change has his presence ushered in? We're still talking about a fictional world where organized crime runs rampant, racism still exists, homosexuality is a dubious topic at best, poverty and famine is never not an issue etc. etc. These aren't even some of the more profound issues humanity faces. Wow, he certainly inspired the perpetrators of those particular issues to do better, to be better. I mean, come on, this is a world where an alien messiah is readily accepted by the masses, yet issues like those stated still exist. He's done such a fine job. Commendable really. What has his alien intellect and arguable wisdom done for society that's so admirable? Sure, it's a given he doesn't want to interfere with natural evolution, but I don't see him inspiring the masses in any significant or practical way. They say they want to be better because of Superman's existence in their lives, but it certainly isn't shown on the level it should be. In addition, how can they not be considered entirely dependent when in Superman's own dialogue in the above scan he says as follows, "The one truth they hold above all else 'no he can't be everywhere at once, but if he's there for me I'll be safe.'" Their faith in him trumps their own will to fight; to persevere on their own merit. Obviously there are circumstances where only a superhero could save them like your example and its all well and good, but like I said, it can create a false sense of security when he becomes the sum, the totality of yours and everyone's continued existence, and not to mention lead to a great deal of disappointment and resentment when that is no longer the reality you face.
Lastly, humanity doesn't need protection from itself, it needs to wake up to itself so it can evolve and sometimes that takes a massive slap in the face. As always it's a matter of trial and error. If it takes a few hiccups and bumps here and there along the way, then so be it. Humanity doesn't need a world as Superman envisions it for them, it needs to create it's own image of the world; a realistic and practical one. Human's will never be perfect but they certainly don't need the likes of Superman's guiding hand to keep striving for a better tomorrow.
And with that, I conclude this essay. Poorly written to you by a severely sleep deprived person. sleepy
Originally posted by Orrsome28Well I don't think its just american propaganda. But I have no experience with american ideals and thought it was a very well done scene.
[B]I'll try and take you on your word. Those scans however represent so many of the issues I have with Superman and addresses so few of the points I made. Other than touting a boatload of American propaganda with a casual disregard for many of the people who helped build that very country, not to mention basically saying begone with culture and history that doesn't belong to the U.S, it doesn't do much to make me believe in Superman's struggle.
Evidently, Superman unnecessarily shoulders the burden alone when he needn't. He lives in a world rife with potential; an abundance of heroes willing and capable of relieving that very burden. But no, why take away one of Superman's only consistent struggles, as superficial as it is?Superficial? He is the only one of his kind, the last son of a dead planet. It has been a very deep issue for him to ask for help. Would you say the same for Batman?
If he conducted himself differently the people would view him differently. If he was torn over not saving one life out of billions then the burden is his alone because he himself established the unattainable expectation that has since been pressed upon him.He hasn't. Its the myth of him that is so huge. Any lesser man would crumple under weight of such expectations. But leave it to you to misunderstand such a simple scene.
He doesn't have my sympathy that's for sure.Well. lets just say he wouldn't cry over it.
And all it took were the words of some random stranger to console him. The depth of his regret... It's staggering.You haven't read much of Superman if you think that's the end of the issue. It has been referenced many times over.
You also keep deviating from the OP's stipulated scenario, preferring to deal with already explored interpretations of alternate worlds.Which are more close to reality than your fantasy.
As far as I'm concerned they hold little weight in this discussion. Admittedly, I too did pose a hypothetical question outside of the original, which apparently you didn't care for since you didn't bother to address it.Your question was hypothetical, I don't do much hypothetical.
This is meant to be a current 'Superman dies tomorrow - who fills his role?' type of scenario to which you're only contribution was, "Thor is too weak. Krypto would do a better job."And you took that seriously? Dear God, ease up a little. It was a joke as much as Digi posted a joke.
It leads me to believe that no one holds a candle to the boy in blue in your mind.As a symbol of inspiration? Very few characters do and in comics only Spider-Man and Captain America come close.
On second thoughts. Really? All of my points countered?If I tried to give you issues to read? Yes. Not yet though.
You'll have to forgive my disbelief. Especially since many of my points were in relation to real world issues such as the unwavering status quo and lack of writing freedoms as a result.But that's not Superman's fault.
And as such, I do believe Superman is a man from a bygone era, written as if he were still the most relevant and enveloping character comic fiction has witnessed.Quite the opposite. Superman is more necessary than ever today. To inspire hope in a world ruled by cynicism and despair. Like I said he protects people, even from themselves. That's what we need now.
I spoke of breaking the mold... Letting other characters come into their own without Superman being the center focus, the one true hero, the only man that can save the good people of Earth. He is after all, in a paraphrasing of your own words , a character that can, "survive being thrown through the Earth's core whilst being in a 'nearly depowered' state." It speaks volumes for not only his character but others that will never have the opportunity to step outside of his shadow.And they can do it even if Superman's around. You are blaming Superman for the incompetence of writers. Take Grant Morrison's JLA for example, Superman was a force of nature but he didn't overshadow any character.
Wrapping it up or my version of it at least, I don't see how you can make such a weightless claim about him leading, inspiring and protecting humanity. He mustn't do a very good job of the first two. The third's pretty much a given considering he's often shown that he can defy any imposed limitations with as much as a simple 'nope, not happening!' attitude.He has done a good job inspiring since a Legion of heroes exists solely due to be inspired by him. And as for the defying impossible odds, that's what heroes do.
But I digress. What great achievement of humanity's has Superman bore witness to? What profound change has his presence ushered in? We're still talking about a fictional world where organized crime runs rampant, racism still exists, homosexuality is a dubious topic at best, poverty and famine is never not an issue etc. etc.Talk about being ignorant. The work he has done for humanity inspires them till a thousand years later. Change doesn't happens over night in humanity.
These aren't even some of the more profound issues humanity faces. Wow, he certainly inspired the perpetrators of those particular issues to do better, to be better. I mean, come on, this is a world where an alien messiah is readily accepted by the masses, yet issues like those stated still exist. He's done such a fine job. Commendable really. What has his alien intellect and arguable wisdom done for society that's so admirable? Sure, it's a given he doesn't want to interfere with natural evolution, but I don't see him inspiring the masses in any significant or practical way.You're rambling at this point. Take a look at Legion of Super Heroes.
They say they want to be better because of Superman's existence in their lives, but it certainly isn't shown on the level it should be. In addition, how can they not be considered entirely dependent when in Superman's own dialogue in the above scan he says as follows, "The one truth they hold above all else 'no he can't be everywhere at once, but if he's there for me I'll be safe.'" Their faith in him trumps their own will to fight; to persevere on their own merit. Obviously there are circumstances where only a superhero could save them like your example and its all well and good, but like I said, it can create a false sense of security when he becomes the sum, the totality of yours and everyone's continued existence, and not to mention lead to a great deal of disappointment and resentment when that is no longer the reality you face.That's a dilemma every hero faces. Its even said for Thor or Captain America and they have failed before too.
Lastly, humanity doesn't need protection from itself, it needs to wake up to itself so it can evolve and sometimes that takes a massive slap in the face.Such a massive change can lead to self destruction.
As always it's a matter of trial and error. If it takes a few hiccups and bumps here and there along the way, then so be it. Humanity doesn't need a world as Superman envisions it for them, it needs to create it's own image of the world; a realistic and practical one. Human's will never be perfect but they certainly don't need the likes of Superman's guiding hand to keep striving for a better tomorrow.Well if see how humanity has fared in last two thousand years and how its faring right now, it needs exactly that. But I take that you don't approve. Good for you, but you haven't actually read the stories regarding superman's struggles. You have an idea, a perverted idea of struggles of Superman actually. I suggest you read some superman stories and come back.
You made some poor assumptions and a few mildly offensive implications, as if I were a complete moron but I'll let it lie. I did prepare a response; unfortunately it exceeded the imposed character limitation and I can't deem it worth the hassle splitting it into multiple posts. So alas, I'm going to end my part of this ever increasing insanity. I grow tired and weary of this discussion and its gone far beyond what I'd intended. Whether you bother to respond or not is obviously at your discretion, but don't feel obligated because I won't be revisiting this subject again. So if you want the last word, feel free. It matters little. Our views are fundamentally different and this continuing back and forth won't change a lick. I fully respect your opinions but at the end of the day your reality is not my own.
So I bid my due, grateful for whatever stimulation this discussion with you provided my brain.
👆
Originally posted by Orrsome28Well did you expect to make a post about uselessness and harmfulness of one of the most popular and selfless heroes who saved the earth countless times and not get some sort of a backlash on a comicbook forum? That's a rough equivalent of going to a holocaust survivors forum and preaching about Hitler's greatness and righteousness of his ways. Ok a very rough one.😛
You made some poor assumptions and a few mildly offensive implications, as if I were a complete moron but I'll let it lie. I did prepare a response; unfortunately it exceeded the imposed character limitation and I can't deem it worth the hassle splitting it into multiple posts. So alas, I'm going to end my part of this ever increasing insanity. I grow tired and weary of this discussion and its gone far beyond what I'd intended. Whether you bother to respond or not is obviously at your discretion, but don't feel obligated because I won't be revisiting this subject again. So if you want the last word, feel free. It matters little. Our views are fundamentally different and this continuing back and forth won't change a lick. I fully respect your opinions but at the end of the day your reality is not my own.So I bid my due, grateful for whatever stimulation this discussion with you provided my brain.
👆
I don't agree with Orrsome. At all. I think he/she is completely and utterly wrong in almost every way.
That said, it's not the topic, and two, you shouldn't really care if someone doesn't like Superman; that's their right.
Just don't derail the thread (and that's not just to you either, other people are doing it).
Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't agree with Orrsome. At all. I think he/she is completely and utterly wrong in almost every way.That said, it's not the topic, and two, you shouldn't really care if someone doesn't like Superman; that's their right.
Just don't derail the thread (and that's not just to you either, other people are doing it).
It won't happen again.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman Secundus.
TL: DR. There is a story regarding what you're saying though. One of the best stories I've read actually.http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730605/000rw9ce-3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730606/000rw9ce-4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730607/000rw9ce-5.jpg.htmlI could point you towards many such stories where all of these points have been made and countered. And Superman doesn't stagnate anyone's potential, leave that stuff for battleboards. He leads, inspires and protects people. Often from themselves.
I wonder how much they had to pay Garth (I munch Penis) Ennis not to have Superman molest small children for that bit?
