Hiruzen Sarutobi vs Hashirama Senju

We're talking peak Hiruzen here, not the significantly aged one from the original Naruto series. This means in terms of both physical stature and chakra levels, he's much greater.

That being out of the way, both of these two have been called "The God of Shinobi", and the greatest of the Hokage. Hashirama was said to have powers that many wrote off as a fairy tale, while Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of the five Kage even in his advanced age.

The only restriction is that Hashirama may not enter Sage/Hermit Mode, other than that this is fair game.

Setting: The rocky area where Pain used Chibaku Tensei against Naruto.

Hashirama kicks his ass.

I agree Hashirama is the stronger of the two, but considering that even in his old age he successfully took on both Hashirama and Tobirama, I don't see how he's going to get his ass kicked here.

I mean, he is a master of all 5 chakra elements, and has the most vast knowledge of ninjutsu of anyone else in the series. His Adamatine Nyoi is harder than diamond, and has the power to drive back the complete Kurama and smash through the Shinju's branches. And if all else fails, he does have the Reaper Death Seal, which IIRC unlike in his old age, he can use with ranged distance.

I don't see Hiruzen being outclassed here. If anything, out of all of the Hokage he is second to Hashirama, and Madara considered Tobirama to be someone of his own caliber pre-Rinnegan.

Those were Edo Kage held back by both Orochimaru and Kishi's, then weaker, Narutoverse.

Hashirama has all but been confirmed as the strongest Hokage and considering he's a casual mountain buster, he'd probably just flatten Hiruzen with a gesture.

Those were Edo Kage held back by both Orochimaru and Kishi's, then weaker, Narutoverse.

If you're blaming that on the Narutoverse being weaker, doesn't that mean that Hiruzen would also be stronger?

^ not really, he was eventually put on the defensive by the Edo Kage he fought even Orochimaru was playing around.

I dont think its a stomp because the 3rd hokage is no joke as well and still a high tier ninja in the verse. But i think hashirama is on an even higher tier if not the highest is the verse.

Based on logic and statements by the characters it should be a close fight with Hashi coming out on top most of the time. But based on Kishi's h4x, Hashi stomps until Sarutobi posts better feats.

Well honestly, I have no clue why you guys are saying Hashi wins this.

Without his sage mode, Sarutobi should be perfectly capable of beating him. He was apparently stronger than Jiraiya even in his old age, and was recently able to stand up to Jyuubito in his old age for a bit.

They were both considered the god of shinobi though, but I still think that since Saru knows every jutsu there is, and is just as strong as Hashi, he should be able to pull a win, at least since Hashi doesn't have sage mode in this.

Without his Sage Jutsu, he's definitely incapable of using insta-wins on the caliber of the thousand fist statue, which was absolutely ridiculous in the first place.

Hiruzen was massively powerful himself, and had mastered almost all Ninjutsu, and his Adamatine Nyoi is one of the best weapons you can have.

That being said, I do think Hashirama even without his sage powers is on a solidly higher level than Hiruzen, but he'd definitely put up one hell of a fight.

Hashirama wins.

Barring the obvious fact that a Prime Hiruzen Sarutobi is an unknown, there's lip-service, his status as one of Ashura's reincarnations, stupidly ridiculous high-level feats & jutsu that blow anything Sarutobi has demonstrated way out of the park, and so on and so forth, that swing this fight in Hashirama's favour.

There's also Tsunade being unable to fathom just how powerful her grandfather was for being able to defeat Madara, and being Hiruzen's pupil, she'd know the extent of Hiruzen's power.

Hashirama operated on another level entirely.

Barring the obvious fact that a Prime Hiruzen Sarutobi is an unknown,

He's not, really. Just think of Old Sarutobi with greater chakra reserves and stamina, or just look to Edo Sarutobi for reference.

That moment where he fought the smaller Thousand Fist Statue summoned by Guruguru by using high level techniques from each chakra nature via Shadow Clones was badass in itself.

ridiculous high-level feats & jutsu that blow anything Sarutobi has demonstrated way out of the park,

His most ridiculous jutsu were done in Sage Mode, which is not available to him in this fight.

Hashirama. Even when I prefer the concept behind Hiruzen's char and the mythological peak Sarutobi.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well honestly, I have no clue why you guys are saying Hashi wins this.

Because he was able to win against not only Madara and an epic Susanoo but the Kyuubi?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's not, really. Just think of Old Sarutobi with greater chakra reserves and stamina, or just look to Edo Sarutobi for reference.

That moment where he fought the smaller Thousand Fist Statue summoned by Guruguru by using high level techniques from each chakra nature via Shadow Clones was badass in itself.

His most ridiculous jutsu were done in Sage Mode, which is not available to him in this fight.

How much greater would his chakra levels be? How much more stamina would he have? Would it be enough to last for an entire day against Hashirama? Would he have the same jutsu that old Hiruzen had when he could have learned jutsu after he started declining? Would he have the same knowledge of jutsus? Etc. etc. We don't know exactly how much stronger Hiruzen was when he was in his physical prime.
If we're going to use Edo Hiruzen as a reference point here, then Hiruzen would lose. But in my opinion, Hiruzen at his peak should be stronger.

True. But his jutsu outside of Sage Mode are rather ridiculous as well. He makes wooden constructs capable of playing catch with Bijuu damas, and palming aside mountain cutting swords, which is extremely ridiculous in Naruto. Then there's his regenerative abilities.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
How much greater would his chakra levels be? How much more stamina would he have? Would it be enough to last for an entire day against Hashirama? Would he have the same jutsu that old Hiruzen had when he could have learned jutsu after he started declining? Would he have the same knowledge of jutsus? Etc. etc. We don't know exactly how much stronger Hiruzen was when he was in his physical prime.
If we're going to use Edo Hiruzen as a reference point here, then Hiruzen would lose. But in my opinion, Hiruzen at his peak should be stronger.

True. But his jutsu outside of Sage Mode are rather ridiculous as well. He makes wooden constructs capable of playing catch with Bijuu damas, and palming aside mountain cutting swords, which is extremely ridiculous in Naruto. Then there's his regenerative abilities.

Yea and not to mention that poison forest jutsu which is pretty devastating in its own right

I have a soft spot for Sarutobi. So he wins.

How much greater would his chakra levels be? How much more stamina would he have? Would it be enough to last for an entire day against Hashirama?

I would assume so.

Would he have the same jutsu that old Hiruzen had when he could have learned jutsu after he started declining? Would he have the same knowledge of jutsus?

Uh, yeah. In his prime he was known as The Professor, and according to Orochimaru he had mastered almost all Ninjutsu techniques.

If we're going to use Edo Hiruzen as a reference point here, then Hiruzen would lose. But in my opinion, Hiruzen at his peak should be stronger.

I agree, but that's the best reference point we have. We saw him creating multiple shadow clones and performing high level Ninjutsu of each Nature Transformation from each of them, and we saw that even against the top tiers the Adamatine Nyoi is still extremely effective.

He makes wooden constructs capable of playing catch with Bijuu damas, and palming aside mountain cutting swords, which is extremely ridiculous in Naruto. Then there's his regenerative abilities.

True, but we've already seen Hiruzen fighting off Guruguru's smaller version of the Thousand-Fist Statue by himself, and we saw him driving back the Nine Tails solo with a single attack from the Adamatine Nyoi. I don't think it's ridiculous to assume he could compete with Hashirama's Wood Human, and realistically that is his best non-Senjutsu technique, I doubt he'd just pull it out from the start.

Hiruzen even in his old age--who's own performance against Orochimaru/co. was said to be pathetic compared to his peak self--Was still considered to be the strongest of the five Kage at the time of his death. During his peak he was called the God of Shinobi, and many thought him to be the strongest of the Hokage. There is simply no way he's out of his league against the other Hokage.

I agree Hashirama solidly wins, but Hiruzen really was no joke, only the best of the best could defeat him. Even in his old age he was capable of fighting off both Hashirama and Tobirama, even if they weren't at maximum capacity it's extremely impressive.

So what about Hiruzen Sarutobi vs Tobirama Senju?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I would assume so.

Well, I don't think there's any evidence that he could sustain a fight with Hashirama for an entire day, given that he'd almost certainly be on the defensive.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, yeah. In his prime he was known as The Professor, and according to Orochimaru he had mastered almost all Ninjutsu techniques.

Okay, yeah, that's a good point. I forgot about the Professor thing.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
True, but we've already seen Hiruzen fighting off Guruguru's smaller version of the Thousand-Fist Statue by himself, and we saw him driving back the Nine Tails solo with a single attack from the Adamatine Nyoi. I don't think it's ridiculous to assume he could compete with Hashirama's Wood Human, and realistically that is his best non-Senjutsu technique, I doubt he'd just pull it out from the start.

He didn't fight off Guruguru all by himself, but he was the only one who could mount a proper defense. He did have one heck of a feat though.

Hiruzen driving back Kurama solo was an anime-only feat. In the manga, we don't see what happens, and we do not see the Adamantine Staff pushing Kurama out of Konoha. So it's a non-canon feat as the manga over-rules the anime.

His best non-senjutsu technique for this fight in particular would prolly be the Flowering Trees jutsu IMO. Hiruzen would be hard pressed to deal with that jutsu unless he countered it immediately. Hashirama's gate god seals are also pretty uber. They were capable of sealing Edo Madara's movements.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hiruzen even in his old age--who's own performance against Orochimaru/co. was said to be pathetic compared to his peak self--Was still considered to be the strongest of the five Kage at the time of his death. During his peak he was called the God of Shinobi, and many thought him to be the strongest of the Hokage. There is simply no way he's out of his league against the other Hokage.

I agree Hashirama solidly wins, but Hiruzen really was no joke, only the best of the best could defeat him. Even in his old age he was capable of fighting off both Hashirama and Tobirama, even if they weren't at maximum capacity it's extremely impressive.

[B]So what about Hiruzen Sarutobi vs Tobirama Senju? [/B]

Either there is something I'm missing, or people simply hyped him up or weren't aware of his or the other Hokages' true strength. After all, people thought Hashirama's strength was too ridiculous to be true. Tsunade, who would obviously have a very good idea as to what Hiruzen was capable of, having been his student, could not believe how much power her grandfather wielded.

I'm not saying Hiruzen was a joke, though if you compare his performances to that of Hashirama's, he is outclassed. Every single Mokuton related feat of Edo Madara's is directly applicable to Hashirama as well. That means Jukai Koutans that are nearly impossible to evade, and take a great deal of power to stop; Wood Dragons that can restrain Bijuu; Multiple Mokuton clones that can act as decoys, etc.

Those two were extremely far from their maximum capacity when a sub-par Hiruzen fought them off during the Chuunin exams, and they still toyed with him. So using that as an argument in favour of a peak Hiruzen is really not doing anything.

That's a good fight. Comparing their performances as Edo Tenseis, I'd give the slight edge to Tobirama I guess.

Really, I think that saying that Hashi isn't allowed to use his sage mode is like saying that Naruto isn't allowed to use kyubi mode, or Saru is not allowed to summon Enma. Hashi's sage mode is something that he has trained to acquire. And I think that without using his Sage mode he would totally kick Sarutobi's ass. Hashi took madara on by himself and Madara used Kurama with the armour of his Susano and Hashi beat him. And when Orochimaru summoned all the previous kage he said that Hashi would be able to resist the Edo Tensei and act on his own free will but Sarutobi wasn't even mentioned.

And Hashi can also do basic of all the five elements, but Sarutobi is not able to do the wood release as Hashi is. Hashi also has the power to heal injuries without doing any seals. As Madara said the medical ninja and tsunade is a disgrace to be related to Hashi and be that bad.

He could also do advanced ninjutsu with one hand seals. In the fight with Orochimaru and Sarutobi Hashi and Tobirama had suppressed their emotions so they were not able to use the full potential of their intelegence. Witch has a huge part of how you fight. And they only had to obey what Orochimaru told them to do.

What Hashi was short on in chakra control he made up for with his total amount of chackra. When Hashi molded chakra he could brake rocks while Sarutobi cracked roof plates and changed the atmosphere. When Naruto gave chakra to all the shinobi in the allied shinobi force Hashirama said that that was almost the amount of chakra that he possessed. And he had tremendous stamina. Hashi also has splendid Taijutsu and was very strong as he hit Sarutobi and sent him flying to the ground. I think Hashi definitely has the upper hand.

I think out of 10 fights Hashi would have won 10 out of 10. I am not at all saying that Sarutobi is weak but I would say this is the order of the strongest shinobi. (Not taking Naruto and Obito or any other's into consideration just the old guys)

1. Hashirama Senju
2. Uchia Madara
3. Tobirama Senju
4. Sarutobi Hiruzen

Keep in mind that this is only my opinion would like to hear your opinions 🙂

I wonder who would have won in a battle between Naruto (Hokage) and Hashi? That would have been thrilling to watch.