KotOR era is infamous at using drain in combat. Even the Dark Jedi do it. And Revan does it immediately before a fight in a cutscene while extremely weakened..
Only Nihilus has done this to any significant effect. Malak was able to apply it, but it wasn't a game changing move, there was no great effect.
The point I was making was not only is it difficult to apply in combat, but that Revan simply never uses it. And that cutscene is the non-canon Dark Side choice.
Not to Revan's level.
Revan has absolutely no barrier feats.
It is, but not to the point of Revan's prowess at it.
True, so if Revan gets battered or hit by lightning he may be able to heal himself, but it's not like it's going to be a difference if he loses an arm or a head. This is also assuming Dooku gives him the opportunity to do this.
If Revan is capable of scoring a TK hit on Vitiate, he can get some on Dooku.
Pushing Vitiate, and lifting him off the ground and suspending him in the air are two very different things.
Revan has all that plus dozens of more force powers, like FLS. They are nearly the same, their pros and cons equally the others out, just Revan has the edge due to that regard.
Dooku has controlled Krayt Dragons telepathically, and created Dark Side manifestations (Very similar to Vitiate's "clones"😉 according to the databanks, and has studied several ancient Sith Holocrons, including Andeddu's.
Dooku remains to have infinitely better dueling feats, and his capabilities with the Force's main combative applications are no lesser than Revan's , and that's why he's Revan's superior.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku and Revan are about equal imo. Dooku has an edge with sabers and Revan has an edge with the Force.Dooku would give him trouble up close, but Revans TK, lightning and his Force in Balance horseshit will also give Dooku trouble too.
I'd think Revan would edge it though maybe.
I agree that Revan probably has the Force edge. While technically Dooku's TK/Lightning feats are better than Revan's on the whole, there's not much he's done that I find Revan incapable of doing just as well or better. And as Ant mentioned, being a practitioner of both the light and dark, he has a greater range of abilities to counter with. And the Balance of the Force move is pretty devastating in it's own right, while not outright deadly.
I still find Dooku's feats of skill to be superior by a significantly greater margin than Revan's Force abilities, though. Revan has some cool stuff to his name, though, like his Echani-type precognition, his ass-kicking of Vitiate's personal guard, and fighting through the Sith Academy. It'd be a good fight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile was described as average by Vrook, who's an assh*le, talking about her before the Mandalorian Wars. Kavar actually says the Exile was talented.
Which is irrelevant in both cases since she became much greater in Kotor II then she was previously and solo'd a Sith Academy. And Kreia was talking about her abilities in combat when she called her her greatest student.
Only Nihilus has done this to any significant effect. Malak was able to apply it, but it wasn't a game changing move, there was no great effect.
And that cutscene is the non-canon Dark Side choice.
Revan has absolutely no barrier feats.
This is also assuming Dooku gives him the opportunity to do this.
Pushing Vitiate, and lifting him off the ground and suspending him in the air are two very different things.
Dooku has controlled Krayt Dragons telepathically
and created Dark Side manifestations (Very similar to Vitiate's "clones"😉 according to the databanks
and has studied several ancient Sith Holocrons, including Andeddu's.
Dooku remains to have infinitely better dueling feats
Revan can handle Dooku's sabers with his Force.
Dooku can handle Revan's Force with his sabers.
That is why they are nearly equals, but the difference is, Dooku will fall to Revan's Force more then Revan will fall to Dooku's sabers.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nope. It wasn't Vrook. Vrook called her a failure of a Jedi. Master Vandar called her average, and he is anything but an "assh*le."
I don't remember Vandar ever even showing up in Kotor II. It's been a while though and its pretty pointless so who cares.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
In KotOR II she doesn't become greater in anything. The Masters flat out tell you that she only grew stronger from the Force bonds she formed with so many Force Sensitives. And as to what Kreia was describing, she says nothing of the sort. She says that by killing her you have done her the greatest service. It's all in her plan of killing the Force.
You mean other than the fact that she learns several lightsaber forms in minutes and masters various Force powers instantly, drains power from hundreds of slain opponents and yes, draws on the strength of nearly half a dozen Jedi? The Exile herself says that shes gotten more powerful. Solo'ing a Sith Academy, defeating Sion 5 times in a row and beating Kreia twice, all on one of the greatest darkside nexuses in existence, proves she's no average chump. 🙄
No, Kreia calls you "greater than any I have ever trained" right after you defeat her.
Dark Jedi have used it to. Hell, even the apprentices.
Are you even listening? I said to significant effect, which neither the apprentices nor Malak have done.
*motions to the Foundry*
Well for one, that's not a barrier, that's a Force Protection bubble. For two, he has no feats with it, just that he has the ability. Three, even though Cade used this ability to it's utmost extent, it never ended up being useful in combat as much as warding off explosions and the like.
Lol. As if Dooku won't spare Revan a second. In the PT fights, they always have breaks in between several slashes.
Yes, there are breaks in the combat, but it isn't going to go on forever with Dooku letting Revan recuperate every time he gets injured now.
They are both telekinesis.
Kay. Sora Bulq pushed Mace through a cave, so I suppose he can simply rag doll him whenever now. Seems legit.
Is that still canon?
Is Revan?
Isn't it a little silly to call this out when you use the database in your arguments every other day?
I don't even know why I even debate with you.
Because you'd have no incentive if you didn't.
Dooku has no feats like the mass slaughter on the Star Forge,
The likes of Antares Draco and Shado Vao do.
and holding against Yoda for a little bit is not as impressive as smacking down one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history 7 times in a row.
Well for one, we've argued the 7 times in a row bullshit and you weren't able to prove that.
And for two, even if that were the case, it's still better regardless! 😄
Revan can handle Dooku's sabers with his Force.
Wat? Uh, no, Revan handles Dooku's sabers with his saber, it'd be difficult with the Force.
Dooku can handle Revan's Force with his sabers.
Wat? Uh, you can't exactly defend against Force attacks with a lightsaber, unless it's like lightning or something.
That is why they are nearly equals, but the difference is, Revan will fall to Dooku's saber more then Dooku will fall to Revan's powers.
👆
I think Revan could take Tyranus with difficulty.
Revan is superior in the force while Tyranus is superior as a duelist, however Revan's tactical ingenuity is a factor that must be considered.
With Revan's tactical foresight, he could immerse himself in the fight, and use his lightsaber abilities in conjunction with the force to prevent Tyranus from scoring a hit on him with his blade. With his tactical mind and planning, he could find the proper ways and opportunities to lash out at Tyranus with the force.
This is why I believe Revan takes Tyranus down with difficulty.
Are you even listening? I said to significant effect, which neither the apprentices nor Malak have done.
Well for one, that's not a barrier, that's a Force Protection bubble
For two, he has no feats with it, just that he has the ability.
Yes, there are breaks in the combat, but it isn't going to go on forever with Dooku letting Revan recuperate every time he gets injured now.
Kay. Sora Bulq pushed Mace through a cave, so I suppose he can simply rag doll him whenever now. Seems legit.
Is Revan?Isn't it a little silly to call this out when you use the database in your arguments every other day?
The likes of Antares Draco and Shado Vao do.
Well for one, we've argued the 7 times in a row bullshit and you weren't able to prove that.
And for two, even if that were the case, it's still better regardless! big grin
Wat? Uh, no, Revan handles Dooku's sabers with his saber, it'd be difficult with the Force. Wat? Uh, you can't exactly defend against Force attacks with a lightsaber, unless it's like lightning or something.
With Revan's tactical foresight, he could immerse himself in the fight, and use his lightsaber abilities in conjunction with the force to prevent Tyranus from scoring a hit on him with his blade. With his tactical mind and planning, he could find the proper ways and opportunities to lash out at Tyranus with the force.
They were able to preform Force Drain in the middle of combat, that alone proves my argument.
Okay. It doesn't really help Revan's case, though.
You also ignore the mind****ery.
Because Revan has never done it to anyone notable.
I was unaware there was a difference, but regardless, my point holds. However, both is a "barrier" so to speak.
There's a massive difference actually, I was going to mention that about your Respect Thread but I forgot.
They can withstand anything while he is on the brink of death.
That is a feat.
What?
I'm referring to TK.
I don't know where this came from...?
I don't picture Revan getting injured anymore then Dooku is, especially with his precognition and accuracy.
You do know that Revan isn't the only person that can use precognition, and that Sith as a standard use the dark side to cloud their opponent's precog?
There is a difference between scoring a TK hit and ragdolling.
Obviously Revan can't ragdoll Dooku, but he can get some hits.
Well whirlwind is equivalent to a spinning rag doll, so if he can't rag doll Dooku I don't know why you brought it up.
You call me out he has never shown the ability in combat, so prove Dooku has, along with the quote of the clones.
I will, PM me about it later. I have it on a notepad on my PC, right now I'm on a Mac I bought a couple days ago. It's very nice. 🙂
Like I said, no they don't. The most they have ever beaten were two dozen. Revan beat like a dozen per door. Let's get serious now.
There were just less than two dozen on panel, and considering they were fighting from their ship, into where the Sith were keeping the Princess prisoner, back to their ship, there's no way every Sith was caught on the two pages of panel that showed that.
Also, your dozen at a door thing is nothing but your ridiculous speculation. There were "dozens" total according to your quote, not hundreds.
Prove what? That he regenerated his power? That's canon. We debated if he smacked him down at no health.
Exactly, he used the Jedi lunch boxes to sustain his stamina, reserves, health, etc. But these 7 Jedi are just Jedi. Malak draining one of them wouldn't restore him nearly to full strength, unless he's really that pathetic.
Again, the fight was extended significantly because Malak could sustain himself off the life Forces of others, and he was already stronger than usual, but it's not like a game where he goes around whacking Malak to death 7 times. As you said, let's get real.
Except it isn't! 😄
Is!
You know what I mean't.
Revan can balance it out with his Force prowess while Dooku can with his sabers. Except Revan has the edge via intelligence and precognition.
I don't see how Revan's military genius would stack up in a one on one duel with someone as formidable as Dooku, and you are really stretching the whole precognition thing out of proportion.
It'd be a good fight, I've also concluded that Revan is likely the greater Force User of the two while Dooku is the better duelist. The difference is that I find the difference in their Force Mastery to be slim, while the difference in their talents with a blade is significant.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't remember Vandar ever even showing up in Kotor II. It's been a while though and its pretty pointless so who cares.
You mean other than the fact that she learns several lightsaber forms in minutes and masters various Force powers instantly,
drains power from hundreds of slain opponents and yes, draws on the strength of nearly half a dozen Jedi?
The Exile herself says that shes gotten more powerful.
Solo'ing a Sith Academy, defeating Sion 5 times in a row and beating Kreia twice, all on one of the greatest darkside nexuses in existence, proves she's no average chump. 🙄
No, Kreia calls you "greater than any I have ever trained" right after you defeat her. [/B]
Okay. It doesn't really help Revan's case, though.
Because Revan has never done it to anyone notable.
What?
There's a massive difference actually, I was going to mention that about your Respect Thread but I forgot.
You do know that Revan isn't the only person that can use precognition, and that Sith as a standard use the dark side to cloud their opponent's precog?
I will, PM me about it later. I have it on a notepad on my PC, right now I'm on a Mac I bought a couple days ago. It's very nice. smile
There were just less than two dozen on panel, and considering they were fighting from their ship, into where the Sith were keeping the Princess prisoner, back to their ship, there's no way every Sith was caught on the two pages of panel that showed that.
Also, your dozen at a door thing is nothing but your ridiculous speculation. There were "dozens" total according to your quote, not hundreds.
"Dark Jedi pour from the giant doors, and a battle commences."
"For now though, he [Darth Malak] orders all his apprentices into battle against you!"
"Here you encounter a large number of Dark Jedi crowding this thin, lit walkway. Wade into the fray and execute a number of techniques of your choosing, cutting a swath through the assembled troops until all have fallen."
"During this time, Sith apprentices, Dark Jedi, and the finest Sith shock troops are waiting to demolish your party."
"The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station."
It's in the hundreds without a doubt.
Malak draining one of them wouldn't restore him nearly to full strength, unless he's really that pathetic.
You are really stretching the whole precognition thing out of proportion.
while the difference in their talents with a blade is significant.
So a Dark Jedi can do it, but Darth Revan himself cannot, despite using Drain in a cutscene? Seems legit.
Learn to read. I said that Revan *doesn't* use it in combat, and that nothing suggests it would have a game-changing effect on the battle if he did.
Does he have to for it to be considered an addition to Revan's belt? No. The point of all these powers is to express Revan has more then Dooku does, and inevitably that will be the difference, and a slight difference it is.
Which is why I mentioned Dooku's mastery of beast control (which he has displayed to a far greater level than Jolee), and his ability to produce Dark Side manifestations, to prove that he too has a variety of abilities he's honed during his years.
*motions to Respect Thread*
I'll... Take a look later then, I guess?
So what is the correct term for it so I can change it?
It's a "Force Protection Bubble" which while not as applicable in standard combat, is a much more advanced power than a simple barrier.
And you do know Revan's precognition is nearly unparalleled in the mythos?
You using the fact that Revan beat a non-force sensitive Echani as supreme evidence of his victory against Dooku is not very convincing.
Loser. Windows all the way.
They both have their pros and cons.
So like 28. Sooo comparable. 🙄
Stop trolling, as if in two pages they could show all the Sith faced throughout the Academy besides a mere 6. 🙄
Also, thinking about it, if you're slaughtering hordes of these fodder Sith guys in the dozens, I really don't think there's any difference as far as skill goes for killing 30 and killing 20 more afterwards really. I guess it speaks for stamina to keep going, but the skill factor is the same.
Once again, your wrong. It is stated to be dozens per a specific area, and it says "dozens" twice. So by default, there is at least 42-72. However that is ignoring all the other accoaldes:'
"This area holds the source of power on this station, the Star Forge itself, and it’s teeming with Dark Jedi and Malak’s apprentices."
"Dark Jedi pour from the giant doors, and a battle commences."
"For now though, he [Darth Malak] orders all his apprentices into battle against you!"
"Here you encounter a large number of Dark Jedi crowding this thin, lit walkway. Wade into the fray and execute a number of techniques of your choosing, cutting a swath through the assembled troops until all have fallen."
The fact that it said there were dozens of Sith on the Forge twice means absolutely nothing, and nothing else contradicts me.
Also, I've never said there's less than 42-72 Dark Jedi killed by Revan/co., but I doubt it's any more than that.
It's in the hundreds without a doubt.
It's definitely not.
The nearby Star would be amping the Jedi marginally as well.
For one, this is speculation. For two, Malak is amped by a Dark Side Nexus even greater than Lehon, it would still be immensely pathetic if one of those Jedi could fill most of his Force Reserves.
You mean like how he is stated to anticipate moves months in advance?
Nah, I actually lowball it.
Extreme hyperbole. If that were the case, he couldn't have possibly been surprised by anything Vitiate threw at him.
Even better, he would have seen Scourge betraying him, getting defeated by the strike team, and Malak's betrayal weeks in advance.
Except that is where you are incorrect.
I hoped my Revan Lightsaber Thread would persuade you otherwise, but I now see it is more do the fact of how big of a gap you put between the PT and it's powerhouses compared to the other eras.
That gap has little to do with favoring one era, largely it's simply that I rate the PT's higher caliber duelists closer to the PT's top tiers than you do based on their feats and accolades. There *is* the fact however, that the EU often has less material on a singular era, and because of this it's harder to judge some of the characters--And I am usually not going to rate a nearly featless character on par with or better than one who has accomplished a lot based on hype alone.
Now, Revan on the other hand has proven that he's in that higher class caliber of duelists, and that is thanks to the threads you've compiled considering before he lacked this. However, I am not under the impression he's better than the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi, who in turn has been shown to be strictly inferior to Dooku in a duel.
And if I couldn't persuade you for the last 2 years, I guess I shouldn't even try now.
It's because your arguments reek of hyperbole and stretching things to make Revan look good.
Your additions to the Respect Thread and Dueling speculation thread have taken you a very long way, though. 👆
Learn to read. I said that Revan *doesn't* use it in combat
Which is why I mentioned Dooku's mastery of beast control (which he has displayed to a far greater level than Jolee), and his ability to produce Dark Side manifestations, to prove that he too has a variety of abilities he's honed during his years.
You using the fact that Revan beat a non-force sensitive Echani as supreme evidence of his victory against Dooku is not very convincing.
Stop trolling, as if in two pages they could show all the Sith faced throughout the Academy besides a mere 6. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Also, thinking about it, if you're slaughtering hordes of these fodder Sith guys in the dozens
Extreme hyperbole. If that were the case, he couldn't have possibly been surprised by anything Vitiate threw at him.
With little to go on for K2, we decided to expand the culture with those elements in mind, and even have a member of the Echani be able to join your party - which is responsible for much of the new hand-to-hand fighting feats and animations you'll see in the game, as well as potentially new powers.
Echani are a culture that communicates through battle, and there are many fighting rituals they use when dealing with their own people - and perhaps your character as well. If you wish to gain influence with them, engaging them in sparring matches or combat can earn their respect, their trust, and perhaps more.
The greatest among the Echani are said to be able to read their opponent's moves so well they can predict the path of a battle several seconds, sometimes even minutes in advance, by gauging their opponent's fighting style, heart rate, and their movements in combat. In many ways, the Echani see combat as a rapid dejarik game, calculating feints, attacks, and dodges with a speed that few can surpass.
More on the Echani will be present in the game, but I wanted to talk a little about their origins and their current ties to the Expanded Universe. "
However, I am not under the impression he's as good as the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi, who in turn has been shown to be strictly inferior to Dooku in a duel.
Your additions to the Respect Thread and Dueling speculation thread have taken you a very long way, though. thumb up
1. You are missing the point. The point is Revan possesses a vast array of deadly Force abilities that demonstrates his superiority to Dooku in Force power.
Yes, Revan's Force Knowledge is wider than Dooku's, though I don't think it's by as much as you're trying to infer here.
2. You have only seen two duels with Revan, and in fact, KotOR Prima Guide implies Revan frequently uses it in combat with the statement:
"For best results, try drain life or death field"
Are you really still trying to pass that off as canon? That's just pathetic, you can't even use those powers in KOTOR in the first place unless you choose the non-canon dark side choices!
Incorrect. I use the fact he destroys someone who is capable of striking fear in the Empire's most powerful members through it.
The Imperial Guards as an organization threaten the Dark Council, not small platoons. It's an impressive feat nonetheless though, it's faintly reminiscent of the MangaGuards, as they have a quote saying they're superior to most of the Jedi.
Yes, they can, because perhaps those were the only Sith present? Idk. It's just as convincing as your baseless assumptions.
It's funny that you're accusing me of making baseless assumptions.
It is an assumption, though, and it's based on the same factor that is always present in comic book feats, and it's that not everything can be captured on the panels. Unless you'd like to argue the fight between Kenobi and A'Sharad was only a few clashes.
They are not fooder.
How many times must I repeat myself? These guys are stated to be "highly skilled duelists" capable of using Lightning, Drain, Choke, and various other Force abilities in combat while having feats of defeating Jedi Knights. They are a formidable opponent.
They're hardly any different than the One Sith, they may not be fodder to regular Jedi Knights, but they are to the upper class.
[i]"The "Echani" were mentioned in Kotor1, and they are also the people responsible for the fighting styles used by Palpatine's Imperial Guard (at least as it's explained in the Expanded Universe, most notably in Crimson Empire, I believe). The Echani rely heavily on hand-to-hand combat and personal shield technology, and they had their asses handed to them by Revan during the Jedi Civil War, because, not surprisingly, there weren't many people able to face Revan across a battlefield and survive the encounter.
This is good, I like the reference to Palpatine's guard, it really binds the universe together in a way.
I still am not convinced this is making him better than Dooku, though.
*cringe*
Well I emailed Chris, hopefully he can persuade you. He puts Revan's lightsaber combat in a *very* high regard.
You're cringing because I put Revan lower than Obi-Wan Kenobi as a lightsaber duelist? You're a madman.
Yes, Revan's Force Knowledge is wider than Dooku's, though I don't think it's by as much as you're trying to infer here.
you can't even use those powers in KOTOR in the first place unless you choose the non-canon dark side choices!
The Imperial Guards as an organization threaten the Dark Council, not small platoons. It's an impressive feat nonetheless though, it's faintly reminiscent of the MangaGuards, as they have a quote saying they're superior to most of the Jedi.
it's that not everything can be captured on the panels.
hey're hardly any different than the One Sith, they may not be fodder to regular Jedi Knights, but they are to the upper class.
I still am not convinced this is making him better than Dooku, though.