Scourge. Maul will give him a lot of hate to draw power from, he has a hundred times the combat experience and training, he has biochemical enhancements and is amped by Vitiate, he wears lightsaber-resistant armor and possesses a portable shield generator. He's casually choked out a dozen Sith and killed over a thousand of them and a hundred powerful Jedi. Even the Dark Council fears him.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
As I recall, none of those guards were Sith. Even if they were, we only see him choking one of them--The others were likely killed in multiple different fashions.
Also, during combat, Scourge could send even HoT packing around with his TK abilities. As of TOR, Scourge is incredibly strong.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
As I recall, none of those guards were Sith. Even if they were, we only see him choking one of them--The others were likely killed in multiple different fashions.
Nah, the vast majority were Sith. Kira also says there were 2 Sith in there if you ask her, so maybe they just didn't bother to show the bodies.
Or maybe he disintegrated them 😮
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Scourge simultaneously choked about 10 - 12 guards/Sith to death without even lifting a finger (Scripted event).
Uh, no, him choking one of them out is a scripted event. Yes, the rest were killed by him beforehand, but assuming that he TK'd dozens at the same time because he did it to one of them is ludicrous.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, no, him choking one of them out is a scripted event. Yes, the rest were killed by him beforehand, but assuming that he TK'd dozens at the same time because he did it to one of them is ludicrous.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Even without that feat Scourge has the power, skill and combat ability to defeat Maul.
Not really. Maul has TKed dozens of individuals, overpowered Kenobi's force defences, pwned Jedi Masters (including a hand to hand combat master), survived a good amount of time with Sidious, pull a shuttle, own Savage, not to mention survive being bifercated.
I'm not sure that Mauls even been in dozens of fights, lets alone TK'd dozens of dudes. Overpowering Kenobi's defense is like breaking a 40 year old condom. Not difficult.
Scourge's personal power is immense, and he has 3 different amps to his combat ability: His unique power to draw off opponents hatred, his biochemical enhancements and his Vitiate amp. Furthermore he is surely more refined in his lightsaber ability than Maul is. He was already a master of 3 lightsaber forms and a master duelist in Revan, so 300 years and over a thousand duels later he'd have peak lightsaber mastery. And lastly he's better equipped than Maul is.
Were you done? I was waiting for you to prove your assertion that he has the power and skill to defeat Maul. Something other than your opinion.
What use is there in bringing up some amps unless you're going to list some force feats of his to show for his power? How is he more refined than "one of the most skilled sith in history?" Sorry, but you can't just take it upon yourself to put him above Maul's level based on kill count. By that logic you might as well say he's better than Sidious too.
Also, overpowering Kenobi isn't difficult...if you're someone like Maul, Dooku, or a rage enhanced Ventress.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Were you done? I was waiting for you to prove your assertion that he has the power and skill to defeat Maul. Something other than your opinion.
Power - Revan and Nyriss both say that he has "incredible potential" in Revan, while he is already a decently powerful Sith at that point. It's pretty obvious that he would have vastly improved in the 300 years after that. And he'll be getting a large boost of power from Maul's substantial rage and hate, on top of his Vitiate amp to his combat abilities.
And even if Maul is more powerful than he is, Scourge can use his shield generator to help protect him from direct TK attacks.
Skill - As I said, Scourge was already a master of Ataru, Soresu and Juyo as of Revan and has had 300 years of training (and he'd obviously be training hard for his eventual rebellion) and over a thousand duels to get more skilled since that time. His combat experience and technical mastery would logically be above Maul's because of this. So I don't see how Maul would defeat Scourge based on skill. And Scourge is larger than Maul is and has biochemical enhancements for his physical capabilities.
So Scourge is more skilled than Maul is and had enhanced capabilities, a shield generator and lightsaber resistance armor.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What use is there in bringing up some amps unless you're going to list some force feats of his to show for his power? How is he more refined than "one of the most skilled sith in history?" Sorry, but you can't just take it upon yourself to put him above Maul's level based on kill count. By that logic you might as well say he's better than Sidious too.
Well obviously because they're relevant? Scourge is an incredibly powerful Sith by himself and his combat ability is increased 3 times on top of that. Maul just can't compete with that. Scourge is above the Dark Council for a reason. Hell, on Quesh he was sure that he could have killed the HoT and Sajar if he'd wanted to.
You wank Maul too hard with that "one of the most skilled sith in history" thing. As if Scourge isn't also one of the most skilled Sith in history with his combat record and history. 🙄
Scourge obviously isn't on Sidious' level because he's nowhere near his power level. He is on Maul's level though. The kill count is relevant because it demonstrates that Scourge has an absurd amount of combat experience and it's indicative of his ability to have killed that many opponents.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, overpowering Kenobi isn't difficult...if you're someone like Maul, Dooku, or a rage enhanced Ventress.
It wouldn't be hard for Scourge either, lets face it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Power - Revan and Nyriss both say that he has "incredible potential" in Revan, while he is already a decently powerful Sith at that point. It's pretty obvious that he would have vastly improved in the 300 years after that. And he'll be getting a large boost of power from Maul's substantial rage and hate, on top of his Vitiate amp to his combat abilities.
And both Palpatine and Plagueis have made similar statements about Maul.
I'm not saying Scourge didn't improve over time, but it's your burden to prove just by how much. Sometimes a person's skill can reach a certain limit after so long.
Also, Maul can do the same. Again, give me force feats of his to show for his power. I'm not interested in boosts unless I know just how much the boosts give him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And even if Maul is more powerful than he is, Scourge can use his shield generator to help protect him from direct TK attacks.
Are his shields made specifically to defend against TK attacks? Kenobi has effortlessly used TK on spider droids which are equipped with shied generators.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Skill - As I said, Scourge was already a master of Ataru, Soresu and Juyo as of Revan and has had 300 years of training (and he'd obviously be training hard for his eventual rebellion) and over a thousand duels to get more skilled since that time. His combat experience and technical mastery would logically be above Maul's because of this. So I don't see how Maul would defeat Scourge based on skill. And Scourge is larger than Maul is and has biochemical enhancements for his physical capabilities.
Savage is larger than Maul, but we seen how much that helped him in a duel against the latter.
As I said, you can't just take it upon yourself to place Scourge on Maul's level based on kill count or number of duels. You're just arguing from your opinion nothing more. Ventress has a large number of kill count for her age, but it isn't her kill count that makes her so impressive. It doesn't even put her above Kenobi, who doesn't even have a kill count. Obviously ones kill count doesn't mean much, unless you could provide more context to them.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So Scourge is more skilled than Maul is and had enhanced capabilities, a shield generator and lightsaber resistance armor.
I'm not convinced. Maul is canonically proven to be one of the most skilled sith in history, which is an accolade hard to top. Your opinion that Scourge is better than Maul based on kill count and how long he's been around, is just that: your opinion.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well obviously because they're relevant? Scourge is an incredibly powerful Sith by himself and his combat ability is increased 3 times on top of that. Maul just can't compete with that. Scourge is above the Dark Council for a reason. Hell, on Quesh he was sure that he could have killed the HoT and Sajar if he'd wanted to.
And Maul is considered "the most deadly sith apprentice in history" and the "one of the most skilled sith" in general for a reason.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You wank Maul too hard with that "one of the most skilled sith in history" thing. As if Scourge isn't also one of the most skilled Sith in history with his combat record and history. 🙄
You wank HoT's quote of being the most powerful jedi of his era even harder. Such statements only matter when they apply to TOR characters, right?
Maul has feats to back it up, such as stomping Anoon Bandora (the blademaster who is well known for his technical skill), and defeating Qui Gon Jin, who is said to be even more skilled than Anoon in terms of saber prowess. Not to mention that a rusty Maul has once defeated CW Kenobi and forced him to retreat, and as M. Yoda pointed out, Maul has also defeated a jedi who specializes in H2H combat.
Maul has accolades and is given context regarding his skills. Not to mention he was consistently put in life or death situations by Sidious, which tested his speed, strength, skill, and endurance--basically pushing him to his physical and mental limits. Training which resulted in him being able to survive being cut in half and regenerate half his body.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge obviously isn't on Sidious' level because he's nowhere near his power level. He is on Maul's level though. The kill count is relevant because it demonstrates that Scourge has an absurd amount of combat experience and it's indicative of his ability to have killed that many opponents.
Kill count suggests Scourge is extremely skilled, it's not proof he's as skilled as one of the most skilled sith in history, no matter how much you want it to be.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It wouldn't be hard for Scourge either, lets face it.
Based on what? His kill count, living long, and being powerful? Give me force feats.
Tell you what, just wake me up when you can provide more than just his kill count of thousands of nameless/featless jedi and sith, his 3 boosts, and people calling him powerful.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And both Palpatine and Plagueis have made similar statements about Maul.I'm not saying Scourge didn't improve over time, but it's your burden to prove just by how much. Sometimes a person's skill can reach a certain limit after so long.
Also, Maul can do the same. Again, give me force feats of his to show for his power. I'm not interested in boosts unless I know just how much the boosts give him.
Funny, in the Book of Sith Sidious refers to Maul as nothing but an animal who could never hope to expand beyond a limited set of tasks.
Enough that he goes from clearly below Dark Council member level to comfortably above it. As I said, he had incredible potential within him. Which obviously indicates a great deal of growth left before him. And he had more time than most Sith to harness his power.
Maul can do the same what? We see in Revan that Scourge gets a sizeable boost from drawing off other Sith's rage and hate.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are his shields made specifically to defend against TK attacks? Kenobi has effortlessly used TK on spider droids which are equipped with shied generators.
Of course shield generator's can withstand direct kinetic force. Especially with Scourge blocking the attack or anchoring himself with the Force at the same time.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Savage is larger than Maul, but we seen how much that helped him in a duel against the latter.As I said, you can't just take it upon yourself to place Scourge on Maul's level based on kill count or number of duels. You're just arguing from your opinion nothing more. Ventress has a large number of kill count for her age, but it isn't her kill count that makes her so impressive. It doesn't even put her above Kenobi, who doesn't even have a kill count. Obviously ones kill count doesn't mean much, unless you could provide more context to them.
Due to Savage's lack of skill, which isn't a factor here. Savage was still stronger than Maul is. I merely pointed out that Scourge is likely stronger than Maul is.
Bugger off am I arguing from opinion. I'm extrapolating from the facts. Fact 1: Scourge was already an extremely skilled swordsman in Revan. Fact 2: Someone's combat skill increases as they gain experience in combat. Fact 3: Scourge has perhaps the largest amount of combat experience in the mythos. Fact 4: It's stated that Scourge benefits from his massive experience base in other areas, so it's only logical that he'd do so in terms of his combat experience. Fact 5: Scourge became a master of 3 lightsaber forms (including Juyo) in his 30 odd years of life before Revan, giving us a baseline for how swiftly he can improve his lightsaber skills. Fact 6: He then has an extra 300 years after that to improve his lightsaber prowess and has plenty of opportunity and motive to do so, since his job and mission in life revolves around combat and we know that he has fought over one thousand opponents in that time.
Conclusion: Scourge has an exceeding grasp of combat skill.
As for Ventress, can you truly say that she didn't benefit from dueling all those people? Of course she did, direct combat experience has a known ability to be beneficial. Which is kindergarten obvious.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm not convinced. Maul is canonically proven to be one of the most skilled sith in history, which is an accolade hard to top. Your opinion that Scourge is better than Maul based on kill count and how long he's been around, is just that: your opinion.
Wasn't he only one of the most skilled sith "appentices" in history? Which puts him on par with, er, Visas Marr maybe? Of course, Scourge isn't a mere apprentice, so that quote means nothing to him.
It only says "one of". It's impressive to a point, but it's only good enough to show us that Maul is a skilled Sith. What, is he one of the most skilled.... hundred Sith? Million? That quote by itself doesn't put Maul above any notable Sith. Any.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And Maul is considered "the most deadly sith apprentice in history" and the "one of the most skilled sith" in general for a reason.
Maul wasn't the most dangerous sith apprentice in history, he was only one of them. And that means nothing in regards to Scourge, who isn't a freaking apprentice. 🙄
And here you're not even addressing the point, only throwing out Maul accolades as if they trump Scourge. If you're not going to try don't bother replying, because I won't.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You wank HoT's quote of being the most powerful jedi of his era even harder. Such statements only matter when they apply to TOR characters, right?Maul has feats to back it up, such as stomping Anoon Bandora (the blademaster who is well known for his technical skill), and defeating Qui Gon Jin, who is said to be even more skilled than Anoon in terms of saber prowess. Not to mention that a rusty Maul has once defeated CW Kenobi and forced him to retreat, and as M. Yoda pointed out, Maul has also defeated a jedi who specializes in H2H combat.
Maul has accolades and is given context regarding his skills. Not to mention he was consistently put in life or death situations by Sidious, which tested his speed, strength, skill, and endurance--basically pushing him to his physical and mental limits. Training which resulted in him being able to survive being cut in half and regenerate half his body.
Yeah, because that quote actually definitively puts him above certain people. Maul being "one of the best evar" is ambiguous and vague as phuck. It's basically worthless in regards to putting Maul above other Sith. I could be called one of the best debaters in history, but that doesn't mean I could beat Socrates in an argument, or thousands of others either.
Maul isn't said to have beaten either of those two due to his technical skill. He beat Qui-Gon by being younger, more powerful and fitter than him. And Anoon has nothing to his name other than losing to Maul and his apprentices fangirlish opinion, so color me unimpressed. He forced a concussed Kenobi to retreat after he'd beaten the crap out of him while he was tied up and Don Moch'd him. And beating a featless racist stereotype doesn't suggest he can beat Scourge either.
I've never argued that Maul isn't skilled. Of course he has accolades and context for his skill. I just really don't see how they measure up to Scourge's. Despite being pushed to his limits and having greater power, Maul's skill isn't enough for him to beat Kenobi. It won't be enough for him to beat Scourge.
Maul didn't regenerate half his body, he used the Force to create a mechanical spider torso and legs. That's like, not even close to the same thing. 😬
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kill count suggests Scourge is extremely skilled, it's not proof he's as skilled as one of the most skilled sith in history, no matter how much you want it to be.
Do you seriously disagree that it would make Scourge that skilled, or are you just not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt for pretty obvious reasons?
Either way it's more than an opinion. If you want to ignore evidence that's cool as long as you're upfront about it.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Based on what? His kill count, living long, and being powerful? Give me force feats.Tell you what, just wake me up when you can provide more than just his kill count of thousands of nameless/featless jedi and sith, his 3 boosts, and people calling him powerful.
Well I'm obviously not going to do that because you don't accept the one I gave you and Scourge has limited exposure on that front. I've proven his power, skill and general level of ability however. I don't need Force feats.
Wake me up when I give a shit about what evidence you choose to listen to.
Just because I don't care if he's convinced doesn't mean I don't care to reply. In these debates it borderline impossible to get your opponent to accept your argument. We just bicker back and forth until one stops replying. I'm not forming an argument for them, but for the wonderful people in the audience, and my own pride as a debater.