Why I think Vitiate may be the most powerful Sith ever

Originally posted by Sinious
That is true but still it doesn't even come close to what Vitiate achieved with the force as a kid.

How old was Palpatine when he killed his father. Should be 15-20 something. Do you think he could turn a sith lord mad and then kill him? An average sith lord of TOR era would destroy 10 years old Palpatine.

...Vitiate is more powerful than Palpatine because Palpatine didn't kill his Sith Lord father at age 6?

Your conclusion might be fine if the comparison were valid, but it's not. Palpatine's father wasn't a Sith Lord nor was Naboo populated by Sith. His circumstances were totally different. The fact that he was in his teens when he butchered his family has no bearing on his Force power. I'm honestly not sure what the hell you're talking about.

Originally posted by Sinious
I think you didn't get my point. Palpatine's political achievements are exactly what makes him look less evil.

Galaxy-wide conspiracy, war crimes, genocide, and tyranny make him look less evil?

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate was superior to Palpatine's methodology

I think you mean Vitiate was more of a megalomaniac and I may or may not be inclined to agree.

Originally posted by Sinious
and already had an empire full of people that worshipped him.

Sure, due to a massive cult of personality he'd cultivated for a thousand years. Palpatine waltzed into the Senate and claimed galactic power in just a few decades.

Originally posted by Sinious
He is completely inhuman and lacks empathy for every living thing. Being sent into the republic as a spy politician would be an insult to him.

lol

Pretty sure Palpatine wasn't driven by empathy when he pursued a career in politics.

Originally posted by Sinious
Debatable.

Not really.

Sidious is the strongest sith of all time and will remain so,

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd just love to rub it in your faces. It isn't that I'm invested in the guy, I'd just like to stick it to the "Vitiate loses cuz he's slow and a feeb up close" guys.

Which you never bothered to refute with feats, and promptly conceded and put me on your ignore list. Lol

Originally posted by Arhael
It was a Sith planet ruled by Sith. How would it not be corrupted? Child was exposed to dark aura even before being born by mere fact that his father was a Sith Lord.

So what? If thats the case then every jedi born in Coruscant and every sith born in Korriban has an advantageous position that makes them less respectable. lol

Oh and Luke's father was the chosen one and this fact is always used as an impressive feat for Luke so why is this a bad thing for Vitiate?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...Vitiate is more powerful than Palpatine because Palpatine didn't kill his Sith Lord father at age 6?

Your conclusion might be fine if the comparison were valid, but it's not. Palpatine's father wasn't a Sith Lord nor was Naboo populated by Sith. His circumstances were totally different. The fact that he was in his teens when he butchered his family has no bearing on his Force power. I'm honestly not sure what the hell you're talking about.

Don't manipulate the context of my words. I've never stated such a thing. There are a lot Sidious fanboys who keep saying that Vitiate's power is unnatural and comes from his rituals and that he relies on nexus. Vitiate's youth proves that he was born extremely powerful and that he is possibly the most prodigious force-user sith ever.

It has. He wasn't surrounded by force users. Sure there were some in the planet but it wasn't like Korriban or Coruscant. Even top tiers like Luke wasn't able to use the force at all without some training so it is an impressive feat worth mentioning.

Galaxy-wide conspiracy, war crimes, genocide, and tyranny make him look less evil?

I think you mean Vitiate was more of a megalomaniac and I may or may not be inclined to agree.

A more common evil at least compared to Vitiate. If you cannot see the superiority of his style in this regard, I can't tell you anything.

No I don't mean that.

Sure, due to a massive cult of personality he'd cultivated for a thousand years. Palpatine waltzed into the Senate and claimed galactic power in just a few decades.

You call Vitiate's empire a cult? Wow. I don't know what to tell you. He had thousands of sith beneath him and none were able to overthrow him where Sidious was killed by the only other Sith in his empire.

Vitiate never wanted a political sith galactic dominance. He cared nothing of the sith or the jedi. He simply wanted to consume the galaxy.

Pretty sure Palpatine wasn't driven by empathy when he pursued a career in politics.

Again, did I say Palpatine was driven by empathy? No. Why are you trying so hard to manipulate the subject? I obviously meant that he lacked empathy and the part where I compared him to Sidious was about being inhuman which he is. Palpatine has a more relatable story where Vitaite is like a mythologic being/god.

Man honestly, it is obvious that you are not debating to find a truth but to prove Sidious' superiority whether it is true or not. I personally am not sure which one is stronger and I think the more information we get about Vitiate, the more clear this will be.

Originally posted by Sinious
Don't manipulate the context of my words. I've never stated such a thing.

I'm not manipulating anything; you're just making little sense.

Originally posted by Sinious
There are a lot Sidious fanboys who keep saying that Vitiate's power is unnatural and comes from his rituals and that he relies on nexus. Vitiate's youth proves that he was born extremely powerful and that he is possibly the most prodigious force-user sith ever.

No one disputes that Vitiate was a prodigy by birth; what is in dispute is the notion that killing his Sith Lord father at age 6 somehow makes him more prodigious than young!Sidious, which was the thrust of your argument.

Originally posted by Sinious
It has. He wasn't surrounded by force users. Sure there were some in the planet but it wasn't like Korriban or Coruscant. Even top tiers like Luke wasn't able to use the force at all without some training so it is an impressive feat worth mentioning.

And as I already told you, the person with the greatest Force potential of all (Anakin Skywalker) was more like Palpatine than Vitiate in that he didn't broadcast his Force strength or go around conquering planets. All you've proven is that Vitiate was a prodigy (which was never in dispute), not that Vitiate is more prodigious or powerful than Palpatine.

Originally posted by Sinious
A more common evil at least compared to Vitiate. If you cannot see the superiority of his style in this regard, I can't tell you anything.

Hardly. I've already shown you that this is another element in which Vitiate is a Sidious rip-off. Palpatine's universal megalomania has its origins in the early '90s and The Dark Empire Sourcebook. The only difference between the two is that Sidious achieved more and still worked quietly towards that ultimate goal.

Originally posted by Sinious
No I don't mean that.

Then WTF does "Vitiate is superior to Sidious's metholodogy" mean?

Originally posted by Sinious
You call Vitiate's empire a cult? Wow. I don't know what to tell you.

facepalm

Time to brush up on some terminology.

Originally posted by Sinious
He had thousands of sith beneath him and none were able to overthrow him where Sidious was killed by the only other Sith in his empire.

...Your point?

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate never wanted a political sith galactic dominance. He cared nothing of the sith or the jedi. He simply wanted to consume the galaxy.

Nah. If Vitiate cared nothing for political dominance, he'd have never initiated the war the way he did and would have instead waited in the shadows until the right time to achieve apotheosis. Galactic conquest just wasn't his ultimate goal (neither was it Palpatine's).

Originally posted by Sinious
Again, did I say Palpatine was driven by empathy? No. Why are you trying so hard to manipulate the subject? I obviously meant that he lacked empathy and the part where I compared him to Sidious was about being inhuman which he is. Palpatine has a more relatable story where Vitaite is like a mythologic being/god.

Sounds like you need to start reconsidering your phrasing. If you meant that Palpatine has a more empathetic story than Vitiate, then you should probably state it that way.

Originally posted by Sinious
Man honestly, it is obvious that you are not debating to find a truth but to prove Sidious' superiority whether it is true or not. I personally am not sure which one is stronger and I think the more information we get about Vitiate, the more clear this will be.

So you draft a post full of random factoids, half irrelevant and half erroneous, for the sole purpose of trumpeting Vitiate... and that's "finding a truth." Meanwhile, I refute you systematically and I'm just a fanboy?

😂

You're going to have a hard time here. 😬

Luke skywalker is the chosen one

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not manipulating anything; you're just making little sense.

When have I ever said that Vitiate's youth just by itself, proves that he is more powerful than Sidious?

No one disputes that Vitiate was a prodigy by birth; what is in dispute is the notion that killing his Sith Lord father at age 6 somehow makes him more prodigious than young!Sidious, which was the thrust of your argument.

Actually, a lot of people do just that. He killed the Lord at the age of 10. And do you really think that Sidious could pull it off?

And as I already told you, the person with the greatest Force potential of all (Anakin Skywalker) was more like Palpatine than Vitiate in that he didn't broadcast his Force strength or go around conquering planets. All you've proven is that Vitiate was a prodigy (which was never in dispute), not that Vitiate is more prodigious or powerful than Palpatine.

Anakin was always limited by his character. No matter how much potential he had, he was too stupid to understand the nature of the force and he could never become as manipulative as Sidious/Vitiate or as wise as Yoda. He was always distracted by very unimportant things for other force users. Havin a lot of midi-chlorians is not the only thing that determines how much prodigious one person is.

Hardly. I've already shown you that this is another element in which Vitiate is a Sidious rip-off. Palpatine's universal megalomania has its origins in the early '90s and The Dark Empire Sourcebook. The only difference between the two is that Sidious achieved more and still worked quietly towards that ultimate goal.

Then WTF does "Vitiate is superior to Sidious's metholodogy" mean?

Yep I remember. I am still amazed by it. Though just because he was written before Sidious doesn't make him less powerful. Also Vitaite got much closer to consuming the galaxy. And in the story, Vitiate is the one who tried it first.

I mean that Vitiate wouldn't bother doing things that Palpatine has done.

Time to brush up on some terminology.

Don't be so harsh man I aint no native speaker. 😮

...Your point?

I don't think Palpatine would be able to rule that Empire. A Dark Council would fry his ass within the first century.

Nah. If Vitiate cared nothing for political dominance, he'd have never initiated the war the way he did and would have instead waited in the shadows until the right time to achieve apotheosis. Galactic conquest just wasn't his ultimate goal (neither was it Palpatine's).

Vitiate never cared about winning the war. He just wanted a long lasting galaxy wide conflict that would help him with his ritual. If the sith would win and take over the galaxy, it would probably be harder for him to complete his ritual.

If you meant that Palpatine has a more empathetic story than Vitiate, then you should probably state it that way.

I never said anything about relating Palpatine to empathy. Let me rephrase what I think about this:

They both lack empathy but Vitiate is more inhuman.

So you draft a post full of random factoids, half irrelevant and half erroneous, for the sole purpose of trumpeting Vitiate... and that's "finding a truth." Meanwhile, I refute you systematically and I'm just a fanboy?

laughing out loud

Irrelevant and erroneous? Why cause it makes our beloved Palp look weaker than what people claim him to be? And you systematically refute me? lol right.

All I am saying is that there is at least a chance. Vitate may or may not be the most powerful sith. You just want everyone to accept that Palpatine would destroy him no matter what.

You're going to have a hard time here. erm

thanks

Originally posted by Sinious
When have I ever said that Vitiate's youth just by itself, proves that he is more powerful than Sidious?

...I never said you said that. 😐

Originally posted by Sinious
Actually, a lot of people do just that. He killed the Lord at the age of 10. And do you really think that Sidious could pull it off?

Do I think that teenage!Palpatine could kill a random Sith Lord? Yeah, probably.

Originally posted by Sinious
Anakin was always limited by his character. No matter how much potential he had, he was too stupid to understand the nature of the force and he could never become as manipulative as Sidious/Vitiate or as wise as Yoda. He was always distracted by very unimportant things for other force users. Havin a lot of midi-chlorians is not the only thing that determines how much prodigious one person is.

Cool story. Bottom line is that Anakin's story is proof enough that killing Force users and conquering worlds in between daytime naps doesn't make you more powerful in the Force than a guy who doesn't.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yep I remember. I am still amazed by it. Though just because he was written before Sidious doesn't make him less powerful. Also Vitaite got much closer to consuming the galaxy. And in the story, Vitiate is the one who tried it first.

Again, cool story. Doesn't change the fact that Vitiate is a pale imitation of Sidious, which is off-topic anyway.

Originally posted by Sinious
I mean that Vitiate wouldn't bother doing things that Palpatine has done.

So what?

Originally posted by Sinious
Don't be so harsh man I aint no native speaker. 😮

That's okay. But it's probably best you don't accuse people of manipulating your words if, by your own admission, you're a bit clumsy with them. Understand?

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't think Palpatine would be able to rule that Empire. A Dark Council would fry his ass within the first century.

😂

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate never cared about winning the war. He just wanted a long lasting galaxy wide conflict that would help him with his ritual. If the sith would win and take over the galaxy, it would probably be harder for him to complete his ritual.

Until he was psychically manipulated by Revan into suing for peace? Talk about something that Palpatine wouldn't have let happen....

Originally posted by Sinious
They both lack empathy but Vitiate is more inhuman.

Debatable. The difference between the two is that Palpatine is clever enough to appear human and empathetic.

Originally posted by Sinious
Irrelevant and erroneous? Why cause it makes our beloved Palp look weaker than what people claim him to be? And you systematically refute me? lol right.

Yes, because Palpatine not killing his Sith Lord father at age 6 somehow retcons his ability to destroy fleets of ships unaided in Dark Empire. Get a grip, son. Palpatine has the feats and accolades that make him, at the very least, Vitiate's equal. Their dissimilar origins change nothing.

Originally posted by Sinious
All I am saying is that there is at least a chance. Vitate may or may not be the most powerful sith. You just want everyone to accept that Palpatine would destroy him no matter what.

Cool story.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...I never said you said that. 😐

Do I think that teenage!Palpatine could kill a random Sith Lord? Yeah, probably.

Cool story. Bottom line is that Anakin's story is proof enough that killing Force users and conquering worlds in between daytime naps doesn't make you more powerful in the Force than a guy who doesn't.

Again, cool story. Doesn't change the fact that Vitiate is a pale imitation of Sidious, which is off-topic anyway.

So what?

That's okay. But it's probably best you don't accuse people of manipulating your words if, by your own admission, you're a bit clumsy with them. Understand?

😂

Until he was psychically manipulated by Revan into suing for peace? Talk about something that Palpatine wouldn't have let happen....

Debatable. The difference between the two is that Palpatine is clever enough to appear human and empathetic.

Yes, because Palpatine not killing his Sith Lord father at age 6 somehow retcons his ability to destroy fleets of ships unaided in Dark Empire. Get a grip, son. Palpatine has the feats and accolades that make him, at the very least, Vitiate's equal. Their dissimilar origins change nothing.

Cool story.

Thanks, this was a cool story as well.

Pure evil? Sidious never went out in public and slaughtered innocent people, he never ordered the clones to kill innocents, he only tried to kill all the jedi,

Originally posted by PTforthewin
Luke skywalker is the chosen one

Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Do I think that teenage!Palpatine could kill a random Sith Lord? Yeah, probably.

But that's not what they asked. The question was "could Palpatine have killed a Sith Lord while Palpatine was a little boy with no training at all?"

Personally I don't think he could.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So what?

So Vitiate is more overtly inhuman and monstrous/more like a mythological being which is what this is about. The whole point of this thread is that Vitiate is more inhuman and more akin to a primordial force of destruction than a mortal man because he is so utterly incapable of anything even resembling humanity or empathy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Debatable. The difference between the two is that Palpatine is clever enough to appear human and empathetic.

Yeah but that's the point. He could at least appear to be human and a good guy. Vitiate was so utterly alien to humanity and empathy that he couldn't have done that if he tried.

To clarify, this is not meant to be any kind of mark against Palpatine. No one's arguing how powerful or how evil he was. The point is simply that Vitiate is a different kind of evil.

To put it another way it's like comparing the Marvel villains Venom and Kaine. Both had different M.O.'s, Kaine was very much a silent stalker watching from the shadows while Venom was more direct. This doesn't make either one "better" than the other, just different.

The force perceived both Plagueis and Palpatine as greater threats than it did any other sith (Palpatine more so considering that it was his death that brought balance to and satisfied the force). As I said in another thread, even God-like beings (Force Priestesses) directly interfered to guide certain jedi such as Yoda towards a path to defeating Sidious.

Palpatine even as of ROTS was the most powerful sith in history as far as natural power. This could be due to the fact that he had the most intimate bond with the dark side, as the Plagueis novel suggests that Sidious and the dark side basically became one, being in complete harmony with one another (Palpatine even mused that as a child, he would hear a voice telling that no harm would come to him whenever he felt threatened. The implication being that it was the dark side whispering to him, and that even before he had any connection to the sith, Palpatine was intimately connected to the dark side from birth despite coming from a family of non-force sensitives and living on a planet that wasn't tainted by the dark side nor was it population with dark siders.). The ROTS novel, while filled with hyperbole, implies that the dark side was spread throughout the galaxy with Palpatine being it's darkest center, draining light from the galaxy. This is how he was able to blunt jedi sensitivity (clouding their senses) on a galactic scale, leading them to their death traps. Palpatine's and Vitiate's methods may have been a bit different, but in the end Palpatine was the most successful of the two, and the force regarded him as a greater threat than it did Vitiate, hence the creation of the chosen one.

IMO, I find it inappropriate for another sith to be more powerful than Palpatine, as Palpatine is the big bad in the most important era of SW history, where the chosen one was created by the force itself to bring about his down fall. He was stated by Lucas to represent the devil, and the New Essential Guide to Characters referred to him as "the greatest evil the galaxy had ever known." Yes, these statements were made before the creation of Vitiate's character, but the creation of Vitiate's character does nothing to undermine those statements, as Palpatine still had the greater impact on the force, and was regarded by the force itself as being a greater threat, hence the creation of the chosen one and the interference of god-like beings to guide certain jedi towards a path to his downfall. In terms of accolades Vitiate comes close; however, regarding feats and the affect they had on the force, Palpatine beats him pretty solidly.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
But that's not what they asked. The question was "could Palpatine have killed a Sith Lord while Palpatine was a little boy with no training at all?"

Personally I don't think he could.

So Vitiate is more overtly inhuman and monstrous/more like a mythological being which is what this is about. The whole point of this thread is that Vitiate is more inhuman and more akin to a primordial force of destruction than a mortal man because he is so utterly incapable of anything even resembling humanity or empathy.

Yeah but that's the point. He could at least appear to be human and a good guy. Vitiate was so utterly alien to humanity and empathy that he couldn't have done that if he tried.

To clarify, this is not meant to be any kind of mark against Palpatine. No one's arguing how powerful or how evil he was. The point is simply that Vitiate is a different kind of evil.

To put it another way it's like comparing the Marvel villains Venom and Kaine. Both had different M.O.'s, Kaine was very much a silent stalker watching from the shadows while Venom was more direct. This doesn't make either one "better" than the other, just different.

👆 👆 👆

Exactly. Im pretty sure it was clear to everyone. He worked so hard to misunderstand/manipulate the topic so that Sidious remains the most powerful sith.

@The_Tempest It got unnecessarily ugly for no reason. My name on this forum is Sinious. Why would you want to defend Sidious so badly against me lol

This is not a versus thread after all.

I don't see how Palpatine and Plagueis were bigger threats to the Force than Vitiate, at all.

It's frankly silly to suggest it.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yeah but that's the point. He could at least appear to be human and a good guy. Vitiate was so utterly alien to humanity and empathy that he couldn't have done that if he tried.

Are you implying that Vitiate was so inhuman that he didn't know the difference between good and evil, or that he was just too retarded to pretend to be good? If it's the former, the fact that he calls himself irredeemable suggests otherwise.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how Palpatine and Plagueis were bigger threats to the Force than Vitiate, at all.

It's frankly silly to suggest it.

The fact that the force perceived them that way, and the fact that they were, Palpatine especially. I think it's silly to argue otherwise.

👆

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The fact that the force perceived them that way, and the fact that they were, Palpatine especially. I think it's silly to argue otherwise.

Theres no source stating that. It responded to their assault on it, but that doesn't they were an unequaled threat or anything.

Vitiate represented a significantly greater threat than Sidious did. Without Scourge and the Hero of Tython, Vitiate would absorb the Force of the galaxy. That's well more of a threat than "kills lots of dudes."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate represented a significantly greater threat than Sidious did.

Nay, fool.