Khan Noonien Singh vs. Palpatine

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are attempting to interfere and aid Palpatine's cause here.

I am not; you revived the thread for the alleged purpose of "responding to the heretics", which is why I posed the question here and not in the other thread.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I'll address this when Darth Ant brings it up.

Originally posted by Me
If you aren't prepared to provide a rebuttal here, you shouldn't have bumped the thread.

These guys fight in character not how you want them to fight. If you start scripting out of character feats then you're being biased.

I haven't made any sort of claim whatsoever, much less one scripting my take on the fight. Telekinesis is a well known ability in Palpatine's arsenal. I challenged you to provide a case for how Khan could cope with it. So far, you've answered the call poorly.

It isn't too late to change your biased ways. Get a load of the new guy.

Like a lot of other users here, you're a bit quick to jump the gun, to make assumptions. You should be more careful; calling bias on someone who has yet to make a claim only serves to make you look like an ignoramus.

I'm not going to waste any more time here if you don't intend to participate, so I'll only ask once more; provide an argument. Or don't, and I'll leave. It's up to you.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I am not; you revived the thread for the alleged purpose of "responding to the heretics", which is why I posed the question here and not in the other thread.

I haven't made any sort of claim whatsoever, much less one scripting my take on the fight. Telekinesis is a well known ability in Palpatine's arsenal. I challenged you to provide a case for how Khan could cope with it. So far, you've answered the call poorly.

Like a lot of other users here, you're a bit quick to jump the gun, to make assumptions. You should be more careful; calling bias on someone who has yet to make a claim only serves to make you look like an ignoramus.

I'm not going to waste any more time here if you don't intend to participate, so I'll only ask once more; provide an argument. Or don't, and I'll leave. It's up to you.

Sidious didn't tk characters who do not have Khan's cellular regeneration and he didn't continue to press in that fashion so why are you scripting his actions which aren't based on his fights. Kindly support your arguments and do not script Palpatine's actions if you cannot support them with facts.

I have already posted clips of how Palpatine uses it in battle. Both Savage and Maul weathered the tk attacks.

As force users capable of telekinesis themselves. Arguing that Khan can do so because they can is faulty logic at best, unless you can prove that he possesses the same abilities that they do.

Besides, even Maul and Savage weren't ultimately able to do much to stop Palpatine's telekinesis when it came down to it.

Sidious didn't defeat any highly skilled combatant with tk

Last I checked, it dealt with Maul pretty cleanly.

and you're ignoring Khan's superhuman cellular regeneration.

In what way am I ignoring it?

Palpatine doesn't typically go for the immediate kill. I've posted various examples you're just going to ignore.

You're absolutely right, he doesn't, typically. Palpatine's hubris is decidedly his greatest weakness, and ultimately the cause of his downfall; this is a legitimate point to press.

However, another thing to recognize is that his laid back approach to combat is frankly because in most of these situations he isn't threatened; Maul was never a legitimate threat to Sidious in their fight, and was dealt with as soon as Sidious decided he was done playing around. Dave Filoni, director of Star Wars: The Clone Wars, emphasizes this in interviews on S5E16 "The Lawless":

"At the end of the day, with Sidious, no one was really going to be able to touch him."

IGN: He really always does have the upper hand in that fight.
Filoni: And he's enjoying himself as he does it.

"And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says "I'm done with this," and goes in and mauls Maul so to speak."

If Khan is a legitimate threat to Sidious as you claim, Sidious would not have the same laid back attitude towards the fight as he did with Maul. He'd want to get rid of any danger to himself as quickly as possible. It's just as you said in the other thread: Sidious is a coward, and would be wary of a fight with a warrior who could actually kill him. It would be illogical based on your own preconceptions of Palpatine's character for him to intentionally prolong a fight where he's in danger.

Sidious didn't tk characters who do not have Khan's cellular regeneration and he didn't continue to press in that fashion so why are you scripting his actions which aren't based on his fights. Kindly support your arguments and do not script Palpatine's actions if you cannot support them with facts.

Again, I've made none of the claims you're trying to place on me here, so your little rant here is unnecessary.

Those beautiful posts are being wasted in this irrelevant thread Newguy. Go back to civilized sub forums.

When are people going to realize that quan is just trolling?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As force users capable of telekinesis themselves. Arguing that Khan can do so because they can is faulty logic at best, unless you can prove that he possesses the same abilities that they do.

Besides, even Maul and Savage weren't ultimately able to do much to stop Palpatine's telekinesis when it came down to it.

Last I checked, it dealt with Maul pretty cleanly.

In what way am I ignoring it?

You're absolutely right, he doesn't, typically. Palpatine's hubris is decidedly his greatest weakness, and ultimately the cause of his downfall; this is a legitimate point to press.

However, another thing to recognize is that his laid back approach to combat is frankly because in most of these situations he isn't threatened; Maul was never a legitimate threat to Sidious in their fight, and was dealt with as soon as Sidious decided he was done playing around. Dave Filoni, director of Star Wars: The Clone Wars, emphasizes this in interviews on S5E16 "The Lawless":

"At the end of the day, with Sidious, no one was really going to be able to touch him."

IGN: He really always does have the upper hand in that fight.
Filoni: And he's enjoying himself as he does it.

"And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says "I'm done with this," and goes in and mauls Maul so to speak."

If Khan is a legitimate threat to Sidious as you claim, Sidious would not have the same laid back attitude towards the fight as he did with Maul. He'd want to get rid of any danger to himself as quickly as possible. It's just as you said in the other thread: Sidious is a coward, and would be wary of a fight with a warrior who could actually kill him. It would be illogical based on your own preconceptions of Palpatine's character for him to intentionally prolong a fight where he's in danger.

Again, I've made none of the claims you're trying to place on me here, so your little rant here is unnecessary.

He attacked him and disarmed him with his sabers. Ignoring their actual fight and falsely claiming he just tk defeated him with ease is trolling.

If Maul and Opress can tank the tk attacks why can't Khan ?

Sidious had the same approach to Luke despite admitting he could destroy us. You can't ignore him toying with Luke for over a minute. And he has no Intel on Khan not that it matters as his approach with Luke was slow and sadistic not quick and effective. Palpatine knew Yoda was a threat and gave him 35 seconds to recover while he walked around, cackled, and laughed without even attacking a downed opponent. If you read my posts you'd see I backed my criticisms of his arrogance with clips, time stamps, and various examples spelling this out. This is why I'm a fantastic debater because I don't just make baseless claims I back it up.

He also didn't defeat any of these opponents with tk either which you did claim he did. Argue on facts not your hopes and perceptions.

Originally posted by Sinious
Those beautiful posts are being wasted in this irrelevant thread Newguy. Go back to civilized sub forums.

#awfuldebating101

Originally posted by quanchi112
I never said Khan can use telekinesis

Well, that's theoretically what he'd need to "weather" Palpatine's TK.

If it hits Khan he's going to tank it.

And if he pins him to the wall? If he chokes him? If he does this?

We don't see Palpatine apply tk in the same manner you're claiming either.

Except for...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

0:35 - Strangles two Mandalorian Death Watch soldiers to death with a twitch of his fingers.

1:00 - Does the same to two more Death Watch soldiers, this time suspending them in the air.

1:45 - Throws and pins Darth Maul and Savage Opress to the walls of the throne room, and then releasing them.

4:20 - Strangles Darth Maul, hoists him in the air, then proceeds to slam him into the ground repeatedly.

He attacked him and disarmed him with his sabers. Ignoring their actual fight and falsely claiming he just tk defeated him with ease is trolling.

And so what? How is Palpatine disarming Maul relevant to my point? If Maul had his lightsaber, could he have somehow blocked Palpatine's TK with it? No.

Fact of the matter is, the director of the show outright told us that Palpatine ended the battle with telekinesis the moment he decided to.

Sidious had the same approach to Luke despite admitting he could destroy us. You can't ignore him toying with Luke for over a minute.

Palpatine knew Yoda was a threat and gave him 35 seconds to recover while he walked around, cackled, and laughed without even attacking a downed opponent.

If you read what I posted, you'd know that I agreed that this is a vital weakness of Palpatine's and a valid point to press.

That being said, Palpatine would only adopt this approach from a position of power; if he were being overwhelmed by Khan, it'd be illogical to assume he wouldn't end the fight like he ended Maul's.

If you read my posts you'd see I backed my criticisms of his arrogance with clips, time stamps, and various examples spelling this out. This is why I'm a fantastic debater because I don't just make baseless claims I back it up.

I wouldn't say that makes one a fantastic debater; it just means one's not a terrible debater.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, that's theoretically what he'd need to "weather" Palpatine's TK.

And if he pins him to the wall? If he chokes him? If he does this?

Except for...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

0:35 - Strangles two Mandalorian Death Watch soldiers to death with a twitch of his fingers.

1:00 - Does the same to two more Death Watch soldiers, this time suspending them in the air.

1:45 - Throws and pins Darth Maul and Savage Opress to the walls of the throne room, and then releasing them.

4:20 - Strangles Darth Maul, hoists him in the air, then proceeds to slam him into the ground repeatedly.

And so what? How is Palpatine disarming Maul relevant to my point? If Maul had his lightsaber, could he have somehow blocked Palpatine's TK with it? No.

Fact of the matter is, the director of the show outright told us that Palpatine ended the battle with telekinesis the moment he decided to.

If you read what I posted, you'd know that I agreed that this is a vital weakness of Palpatine's and a valid point to press.

That being said, Palpatine would only adopt this approach from a position of power; if he were being overwhelmed by Khan, it'd be illogical to assume he wouldn't end the fight like he ended Maul's.

I wouldn't say that makes one a fantastic debater; it just means one's not a terrible debater.

We see Palpatine pin Maul and Opress but he didn't beat them either. That isn't Palpatine. I have no idea why you're posting feats for other characters and trying to script a Palpatine attack through feats from Dooku.

32-35 seconds we see the Mandalorian guards have that amount of time to act. He basically attacks unsuspecting opponents who weren't aware of his intentions or his abilities. Khan kills him in less than one second so this supports my viewpoints not yours. Well done.

He wasn't in the same room thus irrelevant against Khan here since they are in the same visible vicinity.

He releases them so this is proof he won't just to keep someone pinned. He also doesn't defeat or ko Maul with tk also backing my claims. Khan has greater feats of resistance than Maul due to his cellular regenerative feats.

The point is despite the tk edge Palpatine doesn't defeat him with tk alone he engages him. This means he won't do so here either since that's out of character.

He already fought and disarmed him with the lightsabers. The rest of the fight isn't immaterial and it's pretty obvious Palpatine is above him so this further proves my claims he makes poor decisions due to his own arrogance since you claimed he could have ended it any time he wanted it still took multiple minutes.

Untrue as he was being arrogant to Windu while firing the Lightning from a position of submission on his backside. He was screaming, no you will die. He's moronic in combat. I also posted that he shot lightning for 40 seconds burning himself like an absolute dumbass.

Khan will put holes in his body and kill him with one shot so the room for error is none here.

Do you realize how many debaters from the Star Wars sub forum alone so not back their claims and actually think debating means disproving their unproven claims. It's hilarious.

So more or less, you're saying that Palpatine possesses the ability to demolish Khan as the SWVF's are contending, but won't due to his tendency towards overwhelming hubris?

Reasonable, but that isn't the impression you seemed to give off earlier, which is why I asked for your thoughts on how Khan could handle telekinesis. Unless you have another word to put in?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
So more or less, you're saying that Palpatine possesses the ability to demolish Khan as the SWVF's are contending, but won't due to his tendency towards overwhelming hubris?

Reasonable, but that isn't the impression you seemed to give off earlier, which is why I asked for your thoughts on how Khan could handle telekinesis. Unless you have another word to put in?

That Palpatine will lose due to his own arrogance is a pretty reasonable argument actually. However, we need merely take the conditions of this battle into account here. You said:

Into Darkness version of Khan vs. live action films version of Palpatine also known as Darth Sidious. They fight in a features environment. Both are trying to assert their superiority over the other. Khan is armed Boolean gun and his phaser rifle. Darth Sidious is equipped with his light saber. Who wins ?

I fully agree that Palpatine has a habit of "parading around like a moron", but if we take all of your examples into account, he only displays such arrogance when it appears he has won. I would therefore submit to you that he would not start the battle strutting around like a moron and that Khan would have to be in a position where he was all-but-beaten in order for these characteristics to emerge into the battle.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
That Palpatine will lose due to his own arrogance is a pretty reasonable argument actually. However, we need merely take the conditions of this battle into account here. You said😄oes Khan have any defense to Sidious immediately removing his two weapons at the start of the battle via force pull? I don't believe he does. Don't worry, we can discuss the [b]likelihood that he'll employ such a tactic shortly afterwards, but I'd first like to know if we're in agreement on at least this much.

I fully agree that Palpatine has a habit of "parading around like a moron", but if we take all of your examples into account, he only displays such arrogance when it appears he has won. I would therefore submit to you that he would not start the battle strutting around like a moron and that Khan would have to be in a position where he was all-but-beaten in order for these characteristics to emerge into the battle. [/B]

He strutted around like a moron against Yoda. He held the advantage so even if he managed to disarm he'd start posturing and cackling though I don't believe he'd have the chance.

Palps EASILY, and I mean EASILY wins. This is a non fight.

Now, when has Khan raised his gun, aimed, and fired I under a second

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Palps EASILY, and I mean EASILY wins. This is a non fight.

Now, when has Khan raised his gun, aimed, and fired I under a second

Khan wins.

That was not under a second. Read what I asked... when has he done that in under a second?

Palpatine isn't the idiot you claim him to be, when he comes across Maul and Opress he immediately force holds them against the wall, only after he's gotten their measure does he let them down. The guy has plans on top of plans, do you think he'd act in a cocky manner if he knew he could lose?? Against Yoda he had the upper hand for most of the fight, save the lightsaber exchange but I've always said that Yoda seems to be the superior duelist compared to Sidious and Sidious was superior in raw Force usage. So when he was cackling as he threw the Senate pods at Yoda he did so from a calculating position.

Anyway this is all moot, Khan has no way to get around Sidious' Force abilities, Lightsaber abilities, agility, strength or speed. He's just too much for Kahn to deal with.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That was not under a second. Read what I asked... when has he done that in under a second?

Originally posted by relentless1
Palpatine isn't the idiot you claim him to be, when he comes across Maul and Opress he immediately force holds them against the wall, only after he's gotten their measure does he let them down. The guy has plans on top of plans, do you think he'd act in a cocky manner if he knew he could lose?? Against Yoda he had the upper hand for most of the fight, save the lightsaber exchange but I've always said that Yoda seems to be the superior duelist compared to Sidious and Sidious was superior in raw Force usage. So when he was cackling as he threw the Senate pods at Yoda he did so from a calculating position.

Anyway this is all moot, Khan has no way to get around Sidious' Force abilities, Lightsaber abilities, agility, strength or speed. He's just too much for Kahn to deal with.

His guns. They kill Palpatine, easily.

One thing Quan you don't take into consideration is the fact Sidious can't act in character due to the battle situations. He's not going up agisnst a lightsaber deulist and force weilder so realisticly he won't be fighting in the same way. The only time we have seen Sidious go up agaisnt people who are in possession of guns are the mandalorian guards and he choked them without a thought, so by your own admission Sidious will just choke Khan out due to the evidence. He has no TK barrier so nothing is stopping him from choking him, he can do it without even bi no in the same room or hand gestures, he did it in canon, so there is no doubt this is out of character or non canon or anything.