Heck with a quote, I have the comic! I posted the comic! In this thread
Rivi-Anu did hold it, but briefly, and it looked very very much like a 'one with the force' moment to me, where she sacrificed her life to buy the moments needed for the others to run.
Rivi-Anu, obvious from just the one feat, was no average knight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And a random TOR Jedi Knight collapsed two buildings on Malgus. Yet Malgus still knew he could kick his ass with the Force in multiple ways and one-shot him with lightning.
An average knight can't do that unless the buildings are pretty easy to collapse (and depending on how they're made, could be. Just push over some supports and let gravity do the rest. Though it sounds to me like you have a prodigy in there).
Some people who are in the knight rank but really stronger do exist, but if you're including exceptional people, you gotta do it with both sides to be fair. Most TOR Jedi Knights couldn't do that, and if they could, the Sith would have a much harder time of it.
Or... are we sure it wasn't a master, just without the masterness pointed out?
Kalen Sykes
TOR Sith Warriors. I never thought the Imperial Knights were really as powerful as the preceding eras jedi Orders (Same goes with the Legacy Jedi Order).
Again, based on what?
The Imperial Knights are definitely a smaller order, so in total power, sure, but like I said, they're also shown to only give the rank at a fairly high skill level. The only IKs treated as not particularly powerful are the initiates. Individual Imperial Knights have done some pretty impressive fights. Azlyn Rae is a Jedi Master-turned-Imperial Knight, and she's not even exceptional among the IKs. They do lack anyone in the top tiers, there's no Malgus or Windu among them, but we see large numbers of them who perform well against strong foes in both force and sabers, and a number that I'd put up against combat-focused Jedi Council members in most eras (Like Antares Draco and Ganner Krieg).
As for the Legacy order... well, they're the order founded by Luke, so they've got no problems in the training department. Got some people of nice potential too. Featwise, they're fine. Their foes, the Sith, also have some nice feats, certainly the masters among them do, and Luke and Caedus both respected their boss.
Gonna need more than "I vaguely feel they're less powerful." A lot of people here used to say that. Fortunately, that's less common now they've become more aware of the feats.
Some people act like they're not three orders that have been fighting each other for the last decade with a number of certified badasses among them....
Originally posted by Q99
An average knight can't do that unless the buildings are pretty easy to collapse (and depending on how they're made, could be. Just push over some supports and let gravity do the rest. Though it sounds to me like you have a prodigy in there).Some people who are in the knight rank but really stronger do exist, but if you're including exceptional people, you gotta do it with both sides to be fair. Most TOR Jedi Knights couldn't do that, and if they could, the Sith would have a much harder time of it.
Or... are we sure it wasn't a master, just without the masterness pointed out?
My point was that some random dude doesn't really prove much as being representative of the era. That guy was far from the elite of his era as well yet his feat was above many of the elites in other era's. Your reasoning here and in the previous post applies just as much to the TOR era as it does the Legacy era. Most Sith Lords can't TK a 30 foot shuttle.
Originally posted by Nephthys
My point was that some random dude doesn't really prove much as being representative of the era. That guy was far from the elite of his era as well yet his feat was above many of the elites in other era's. Your reasoning here and in the previous post applies just as much to the TOR era as it does the Legacy era. Most Sith Lords can't TK a 30 foot shuttle.
No, but that's a 'considered-strong-but-not-top' Sith Lord. There's a couple stronger than him outside the inner circle, like Luft. So he's *reasonably* representative.
And there was an Imperial Knight who gave a very good fight to that one specifically.
(Btw, the lord in question with the shuttle feat is 'Darth Wredd's master'. Despite him being reasonably significant, his name simply never came up, which is why I've yet to give the name)
A scene from Legacy 2-
Jao Assam, full Imperial Knight who's considered talented but a bit young (and less strong than his master, Yalta Val), is facing Darth Luft, sith lord who's previously disparaged Wredd and Wredd's master.
They face off in sabers on a floating platform, neither gets the edge, Luft throws a multi-ton hunk of metal against Jao, Jao tries to block it but isn't strong enough and is hit by it and knocked into the water.
Then, two Cadets of the IKs come in full armor! They were deployed to the situation by their trainer who needed additional muscle and said they were up for combat deployment. Luft wonders aloud if he'll at least get a workout.
Half a second later both are effortlessly disarmed by Luft's saber skills. Luft laments no workout. Jao takes advantage to sneak up behind Luft and attacks.
So dude can take down pairs of padawans without even trying, but a full Knight, even one on the junior side, is a serious fight for him.
Marasiah Fel, also, killed sith in combat while she was still a IK apprentice, and then once promoted she was put on missions alongside masters.
---
You have to understand, the total number of full Imperial Knights is about 60~. According to the Legacy era campaign guide, the way it works is, basically, prospective recruits just stay in training for extremely long periods until they finally reach the required level. Or, I would suspect, when a position finally opens due to the passing of a IK. We do know on a few occasions they've also taken in Jedi who're willing to swear the oaths- again, master level (the main example is Azlyn Rae, who was on the strike team at the confrontation between Karness Muur and Darth Krayt, and she was the one who stabbed Krayt in the neck while he was in a lightning duel with Muur).
So they're an all-elite, but few in number, group, always lead by a Fel. Five random IKs is thus a lot different of a thing than five random Sith Warriors or Jedi Guardians.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not sure what you just tried to prove, other than that padawan level IK's can't compete with a Sith Lord. Which is um, not really something that needed proving.
The bit where the one somewhat-green full Knight can take on a Sith Lord of that level is the key factor.
In other words, any Imperial Knight could do that well, the experienced ones better. Again, until someone is at that level, they are not considered an Imperial Knights. The padawan equivalents are people who *want to* be Imperial Knights. Marasiah Fel, capable of taking down sith in combat and easily Jedi Knight level at the least, still wasn't an IK at first.
Sith Warriors are also the elite of the Empire's troops.
But they are still troops, so to speak. They are not Masters. They are not Lords. They match up fairly well against the experienced Jedi Knight guardians defending the temple. The most promising among *them* become Lords.
Imperial Knight is a title akin to Sith Lord rather than Sith Warrior.
Q99,
You honestly have no point in this discussion, ranks do not determine quality. You did point out that Imperial Knights are good but you are underestimating the quality of Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire in general.
It can be argued that Sith reached epitome of their quality as an Order within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Their is a great deal of information in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia concerning this matter, I recommend you to read this book if you haven't already.
Sith Warrior represents a Sith discipline/class and have nothing to do with ranks of an individual. An individual can become a Sith Warrior irrespective of the rank factor, from apprenticeship to top of the Sith hierarchy. Look no further then the example of Darth Malgus.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Your reasoning implies that rank=power, which isn't true. You're also implying that Jedi Knights couldn't fight Imperial Knights because they aren't Masters. Finally, you still haven't proved that Imperial Knights have been shown to be better than TOR Jedi.
SW LegendYou honestly have no point in this discussion, ranks do not determine quality. You did point out that Imperial Knights are good but you are underestimating the quality of Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire in general.
Really? Are you implying that Sith Lords are not stronger than Sith Warriors which are not stronger than Sith Apprentices? That Jedi Masters are not, on the whole, stronger than Jedi Masters?
Rank does determine quality when you must get that level of quality in order to get the rank.
Basically, take two equal batches of 300 lightside force sensitive people. Give 'em to the Jedi, and the Imperial Knights. The Jedi will get 200+ Jedi from them, most of whom will be weaker. The Imperial Knights'll get, oh, 30.
The IKs and the top 30 Jedi Masters will be the exact same level, same candidates and all, but the Jedi will also have a bunch of less powerful knights. Because the IKs simply only give the top 30 the rank, their average will be higher from simple exclusion of the weaker.
A random sampling of a group that includes weaker people will have a lower average than a random sampling of a masters-only group. Whichever the order the master-only group is from.
Originally posted by Q99
Really? Are you implying that Sith Lords are not stronger than Sith Warriors which are not stronger than Sith Apprentices? That Jedi Masters are not, on the whole, stronger than Jedi Masters?
Rank does determine quality when you must get that level of quality in order to get the rank.
Basically, take two equal batches of 300 lightside force sensitive people. Give 'em to the Jedi, and the Imperial Knights. The Jedi will get 200+ Jedi from them, most of whom will be weaker. The Imperial Knights'll get, oh, 30.
The IKs and the top 30 Jedi Masters will be the exact same level, same candidates and all, but the Jedi will also have a bunch of less powerful knights. Because the IKs simply only give the top 30 the rank, their average will be higher from simple exclusion of the weaker.
A random sampling of a group that includes weaker people will have a lower average than a random sampling of a masters-only group. Whichever the order the master-only group is from.
Sith Warrior isn't a rank, and on the whole Sith Lords, Jedi Masters, and Jedi Knights have all held the rank of fodder. Let's not kid ourselves.
Except when someone becomes a lord, they stop being called just a Sith Warrior most of the time.
And 'fodder' is relative. A Lord/Master can be fodder to the leader of the Sith Order/Jedi Order, but still be stronger than a Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior.
No, when you get the level of maturity, and experience, especially considering teaching in this case, you get the rank. You can be the best private in the history of an army, kill 600 people with your bare hands, and then take a capital single handily. You won't be a general once it's all said in done.
Because being a general is based on command ability, not kickass ability. If you're in an organization that promotes on kickass ability, the high ranks will be more kickass.
The Imperial Knights promote on kickass. Their primary job is combat. There are no IK diplomats or such. They handle diplomacy by being assigned to guard a diplomat.
The Jedi Knights still get the good ones, so this proves nothing.
If you have a group of 200 Padawans, Knights, and Masters, and I have a group of 30 Masters, and 12 are randomly selected from each group, then on average you'll have 4 padawan, 4 knights, and 4 masters- or perhaps even more padawans and knights- while I'll have 12 masters every time.
My group will win pretty much every time.
That's what's happening here.
Sith Warriors- even if you include warriors-turned-lords, then you're going to have some Knight-level and some Master-level out of the 5.
A group of 5 masters will still win, because the Sith have got less powerful people included in and the IKs don't.
I guess on the average this may lower the sample, but first you have to prove that the best here is somehow above the average there.
Already done so. The Imperial Knights only give someone the rank. What a 'relatively inexperienced' Imperial Knight can do has been mentioned multiple times.
Seriously, are you arguing 'the Master equivalents, who only get the title when they reach a level of master, who often fight with Master Jedi and Master Sith, aren't above average of another side'?
There doesn't seem to be much of an argument here. I've given both feats and the very way the title is given. You've given 'but that doesn't really mean what you just said, right?' and 'but surely a group of only masters isn't really stronger than a group of mostly knight equivalents, right?'.
And let's just throw in a quote from the RPG: "The Imperial Knights are among the most talented and dangerous force-users in the galaxy."
And before one starts to try and imply something about the power of the era in general- yes, they have high force feats, dueling feats, and have interacted with people of the Old Empire, KotoR, Clone Wars, and Luke's order. There is precisely nothing to indicate they're any weaker on average. If you wish to indicate so, bring evidence to prove it and don't just imply it without being able to back it up.
Originally posted by Q99
Except when someone becomes a lord, they stop being called just a Sith Warrior most of the time.
And 'fodder' is relative. A Lord/Master can be fodder to the leader of the Sith Order/Jedi Order, but still be stronger than a Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior.
Because being a general is based on command ability, not kickass ability. If you're in an organization that promotes on kickass ability, the high ranks will be more kickass.
The Imperial Knights promote on kickass. Their primary job is combat. There are no IK diplomats or such. They handle diplomacy by being assigned to guard a diplomat.
If you have a group of 200 Padawans, Knights, and Masters, and I have a group of 30 Masters, and 12 are randomly selected from each group, then on average you'll have 4 padawan, 4 knights, and 4 masters- or perhaps even more padawans and knights- while I'll have 12 masters every time.
My group will win pretty much every time.
That's what's happening here.
Sith Warriors- even if you include warriors-turned-lords, then you're going to have some Knight-level and some Master-level out of the 5.A group of 5 masters will still win, because the Sith have got less powerful people included in and the IKs don't.
😆 Where have you been? Are we talking about the same Sith? People come into the Academy leaving in body bags. Also read what I said above, again, about rank not equaling power.
Already done so. The Imperial Knights only give someone the rank. What a 'relatively inexperienced' Imperial Knight can do has been mentioned multiple times.
Seriously, are you arguing 'the Master equivalents, who only get the title when they reach a level of master, who often fight with Master Jedi and Master Sith, aren't above average of another side'?
There doesn't seem to be much of an argument here. I've given both feats and the very way the title is given. You've given 'but that doesn't really mean what you just said, right?' and 'but surely a group of only masters isn't really stronger than a group of mostly knight equivalents, right?'.
And let's just throw in a quote from the RPG: "The Imperial Knights are among the most talented and dangerous force-users in the galaxy."
No they aren't. There is no Sith Warrior rank. Sith Warrior is a profession.
And Sith Lords *still* aren't called it very often.
And still, that supports the point- Sith Warriors aren't a specific rank. Imperial Knights are, and a high one. Sith Lord is, and a high one. A rankless title that covers lower and mid-rank people as well as high rank ones is, in a random selection of members, going to have more weaker members in it than a title that is just high rank ones.
Sith Warrior= Jedi Knight is a game mechanic at best and a laugh at you being funny at worst.
*Looks at the deception trailer* Oh look, it's sith warriors and jedi knights fighting on even terms. That's game mechanic?
Which no logical military or monastic force is designed on.
The Imperial Knights are primarily bodyguards and military strike force. They are neither a complete military nor monastic force.
Though how force users and military go together never makes much sense, see Jedi and Sith generals.
You do not have to be powerful to be a Master, something that has been shown many times.
Sure, you can be promoted because of diplomacy, politics, or what have you, depending on what the order wants.... and these ones are promoted due to combat, because that's all they do.
Where have you been? Are we talking about the same Sith? People come into the Academy leaving in body bags. Also read what I said above, again, about rank not equaling power.
So you insist that if there was a matchup between five Sith Warriors and five Sith Lords, you would not bet on the Lords?
I don't have to argue a definite fact represented in the universe by every source. I honestly don't know why I'm still replying to you somehow thinking that power=rank.
Ranks can be given in response to power. These are.
And you're also brushing off that there are examples of power to support it.
Saying "power does not equal rank" does not allow you to brush aside power.
I never said that; what I did say is that holding a rank doesn't make you any more powerful than anyone else, which for some reason you continue to imply without any evidence to back it up.
If you argument is rank and profession is completely irrelevant, then why are you even debating a vs where literally the only information is the numbers, rank and professions of the two sides?
Given information: "One side has 5 members of the rank and profession of Imperial Knight, the other side has 5 members of the rank and profession of Sith Warrior."
Also, I've given information to back up the strength of the Imperial Knights. You've brushed it aside because you feel it's rank based.
Basically you're trying to put yourself in a position where you can ignore any evidence because it's evidence on the strength of people who are Imperial Knights or Sith Warriors, when in fact that is the exact information that the op is asking.
TOR Jedi and Sith are not still in the galaxy.
Do you feel this is an argument for them in some respect? Do you feel some eras are just innately more or less powerful? Do you have any evidence that TOR rank and file are more powerful, or are you just going to imply it without backing it up?