Force Lightning is still a technique dependent upon the wielders personal affinity with said technique, not purely raw power. Sith like Zannah and Maul have no talent for it at to a notable extent, while lesser Sith do. Likewise lesser Sith have demonstrated greater ability with the technique than many great ones have.
Originally posted by NephthysWhile true, that would only I feel be a valid argument if Sidious or the Sith Emperor had any such limitations.
Force Lightning is still a technique dependent upon the wielders personal affinity with said technique, not purely raw power. Sith like Zannah and Maul have no talent for it at to a notable extent, while lesser Sith do. Likewise lesser Sith have demonstrated greater ability with the technique than many great ones have.
But clearly both of them have a high level of talent for Force Lightning, noting that given Sidious was the first Sith ever (in terms of appearance) to use Force Lightning it is of course going to be bigged up as his most practiced and accomplished ability.
And the fact that he mastered the Force Storm, which is in many ways an extrapolation of Sith Lightning, demonstrates he was supreme in this field.
Anyway, I prefer not to resort to canon, I was just pointing it out. I personally feel his feats speak for themselves.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Force Lightning is still a technique dependent upon the wielders personal affinity with said technique, not purely raw power. Sith like Zannah and Maul have no talent for it at to a notable extent, while lesser Sith do. Likewise lesser Sith have demonstrated greater ability with the technique than many great ones have.
And yet it's different in the case of Revan's tutaminis? 😮
Originally posted by Beniboybling
While true, that would only I feel be a valid argument if Sidious or the Sith Emperor had any such limitations.But clearly both of them have a high level of talent for Force Lightning, noting that given Sidious was the first Sith ever (in terms of appearance) to use Force Lightning it is of course going to be bigged up as his most practiced and accomplished ability.
And the fact that he mastered the Force Storm, which is in many ways an extrapolation of Sith Lightning, demonstrates he was supreme in this field.
Anyway, I prefer not to resort to canon, I was just pointing it out. I personally feel his feats speak for themselves.
But as I said, many Sith have demonstrated a talent for the technique that's lesser than that of weaker Sith. Nox for instance already demonstrated superior destructive power with lightning as an apprentice than many full Sith Lords have cough like dooku cough. Sidious being "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean he's better at Force Lightning.
The Force Storm was based off of Malgus' Force Maelstrom, actually.
Yes, I almost always prefer feats to assumptions based on power level.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And yet it's different in the case of Revan's tutaminis? 😮
That's specifically stated to be a representation of his raw power though.
Originally posted by NewGuy01Errr... no? (again?)
And yet it's different in the case of Revan's tutaminis? 😮
Tutanimis is, in general, a raw power feat. Granted some users are more talented than others but clearly both Yoda and Revan have full mastered this ability. However considering its a raw power feat ultimately one is going to be limited by their raw power i.e. Force Ability. So simply by way of being a superior Force User Yoda is capable of absorbing and redirecting more energy than Revan.
Just like Sidious, by way of having a greater amount of power at his disposal, is able to create more potent Force Lightning than the Sith Emperor.
Pretty simple.
Originally posted by NephthysSo your saying that the Sith Emperor could be a lesser Force wielder to Sidious, but simply have a greater talent in lighting? Okay, but I can't think of any examples of where that has been the case. As far as I'm concerned when it comes down to Lightning talent can't trump power, only a lack of talent can inhibit it. But what has Nox done as an apprentice that surpasses superior Sith Lords?
But as I said, many Sith have demonstrated a talent for the technique that's lesser than that of weaker Sith. Nox for instance already demonstrated superior destructive power with lightning as an apprentice than many full Sith Lords have cough like dooku cough. Sidious being "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean he's better at Force Lightning.The Force Storm was based off of Malgus' Force Maelstrom, actually.
Yes, I almost always prefer feats to assumptions based on power level.
Malgus didn't invent the Force Maelstrom??
But yes, which I have presented.
Originally posted by NewGuy01Ah ignore me, I thought you were responding to me for some reason...
I am aware of that, I was referring to Neph's claim saying Force lightning isn't an accurate indicator of raw power, before turning around and saying that Revan's raw power is akin to Yoda's because of their Tutaminis showings.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So your saying that the Sith Emperor could be a lesser Force wielder to Sidious, but simply have a greater talent in lighting? Okay, but I can't think of any examples of where that has been the case. As far as I'm concerned when it comes down to Lightning talent can't trump power, only a lack of talent can inhibit it. But what has Nox done as an apprentice that surpasses superior Sith Lords?Malgus didn't invent the Force Maelstrom??
But yes, which I have presented.
It's possible. Certain people are simply more talented in one area than others are. I could make the same argument about Vitiate being faster than Dooku because he's more powerful, but I doubt you'd agree with me. Even in the case of two being very talented in the same area and similarly powerful, there can still be a disparity in overall mastery and potency. Also even if Sidious is more powerful, that could just be by a miniscule amount. And his talent with lightning could be greater than Sidious' by a greater amount. You cannot dismiss this possibility out of hand. That's why I determine the levels by feats. Shattered rock with it. And Thanaton was able to tear through metal with lightning when he was an apprentice.
Sidious seems to credit Malgus with inspiration for the technique at any rate.
Ok.
Don't feel rushed trying to respond to this. I'll be gone for several hours after this post is published anyway.
All right, I promised the OP I would post a counter-analysis to this so here it is:
Firstly, I accept that when amped by a DS nexus Nyriss' lightning is superior to Dooku's - and I accept that Yoda struggled against Dooku's lighting whereas Revan seemingly did not. However I reject this as proof that Revan is anywhere near Yoda's league in terms of power.
"Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss's Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord."
―Star Wars: The Essential Readers Companion
Yoda is a scholar, an aged scholar who suffers from arthritis among other things, and because of that Yoda finds it difficult to build up and exert his vast reservoirs of Force energy on his environment. And this is why Yoda struggled against Dooku, not because he lacked power, but lacked the ability to quickly exert it. He was old, frail and slow - but still vastly powerful.And this is a view that the Jensaarai, who you may be familiar, concurs with. Here is his summary of the topic - relevant until the 32:00 mark.
Indeed compare the following:
Here is Yoda warding of Dooku's TK attacks, note the slow deliberate motions and the obvious exertions it takes for him to do this. Something decidedly absent from the lesser Dooku's attacks. Yet here we have two far younger and more combat-experienced Force Users throwing around projectiles with consummate ease. And then again here a similar pair also wield TK without the exertion Yoda displays. Neither Ventress, Anakin, Malgus or Darach are in the same league as Yoda, and yet - because they are younger and unlike Yoda used to using their powers in the field - they are able to use TK far quicker than he.
And yet we would not argue these individuals superior or even equal Force Users. For despite Yoda's age and scholarly persona, when he is able to bring his full powers to bear through concentration they are vast to say the least, vastly superior to what Revan is capable of.
- - - - - -
Revan on the other hand, a practiced, younger warrior who like Anakin, Ventress, Malgus and Darach had been in many battles and became accustomed to use his powers quickly, had no such difficulty in gather his energies immediately and deflecting Nyriss' power.
[Additional rambling of the thing you just said 5 times previously]
Wait. So you are telling me that your entire argument on why Yoda struggled is based off of Jensaarai?
Are you ****ing serious? He's a bigger disgrace to society then Miley Cyrus.
Yoda has performed insane telekentic/tutaminis attacks/defenses nearly instantly:
Example 1: Yoda throws back a dozen+ droids with a mere gesture.
- - - - - -
Example 2: Yoda throws back a large amount of attacks nearly instantly to protect a Jedi.
- - - - - -
Example 3: Yoda lifts up a large number of Droidekas instantly.
- - - - - -
Example 4: Yoda moves the two huge ships with a short movement of his hands.
- - - - - -
Example 5: Yoda and Palpatine both hurl senate pods at eachother with such speeds that they crash into one-another.
"...it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor."
―Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Novelization
- - - - - -
As you can see, to say Yoda requires ample time to gather his energy is the most bullshit excuse I have ever heard.
PS: Any insults directed at you here are jokes, though to be honest I don't like you anyway.
To apply that to the example given, Yoda would have struggled at first to absorb and redirect Dooku's lightning because it would have required an immediate and unexpected response, which Yoda is not geared towards, however once given time to concentrate, he could negate Dooku's attack with little effort. The novel and the film, demonstrate this, in the film the visible signs of exertion are in keeping with his previous difficult in deflecting Dooku's TK and the overall concept as Yoda as old and scholarly. The novel itself elaborates on this, noting that as Yoda is given time to concentrate, he becomes increasingly more confident and ready:...but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it[...]
-Attack of the Clones
Yoda begins to absorb Sidious's lightning the instant it makes contact with him. He doesn't have to build up any energy.
- - - - -
Here is the first segment of Yoda's tutaminis display against Palpatine. Immediately after his lightsaber is blown out of his hand, Yoda lifts up *one* of his hands and begins absorbing and reflecting the lightning. He doesn't have to build up any energy and is able to jump in to the fray of lightning instantly. Revan does the same.
- - - - -
Yoda was well capable of defending Dooku's lightning, and he did defend against it, just "far from easily."
The Sith claimed to be more powerful than any Jedi, but Yoda easily absorbed his Force lightning attack.Which, may I add, is canonically superior to the novel anyway.
The difference is staggering, Yoda is not only capable of catching the full brunt of Sidious' lighting without being burned, but he was able to gather his energies and push them back, almost completely overwhelming Sidious before the energy explodes and luck has it that Yoda loses the high ground.I don't think I need to go into much more detail here, Yoda was able to capably catch Sidious' lighting and almost overwhelm him, whereas against an opponent of similar (though weaker) strength Revan was not only incapable of fully catching the bolts, but was almost killed by them.
To conclude I would draw your attention to Yoda's initial inability to contain Sidious' energy, thanks to his age and scholarly persona, yet after having time to concentrate he pushes back and gains the advantage, and it is at that point that the full extent of his power comes to bear.
"The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength."
―Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Novelization
Here is what happened when Revan tried to catch the Sith Emperor's lightning:A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him, Revan tried to draw them in and contain them but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than than Nyriss had ever been. Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body, his skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
--Taken from The Old Republic: Revan
To say he struggled would be an understatement, as it is quite obvious that had T3 not intervened Revan would have shortly died.
Revan was, quite simply, totally surpassed by the Sith Emperor's power.
Now, to compare that to Yoda's performance against Sidious who is comparable (though markedly superior) in ability:
[YT Link]
Yoda is clearly the superior wielder of tutaminis here, grossly superior, and this only reinforces the fact that Yoda only struggled against Dooku because he was out of his element.
TL;DR Yoda struggled against Dooku because as an aged-scholar he was not used to exerting his powers quickly, yet clearly Yoda is grossly superior to Revan given his performance against the Sidious in comparison to Revan's less than impressive performance against the Sith Emperor.
Except you fail to realize that Vitiate's lightning is beyond Sidious'. XSUPREMEXSKILLZ, who worked on me on the thread, will reply to your above argument on your shitty response on Sidious vs Vitiate in lightning. 🙂
Per Neph's logic, Vitate's best off nexus lightning feat is not much better than Dooku's lightning, considering it required about 20 seconds worth of lightning spamming + a charged attack to overwhelm the saber defenses of just two jedi. Dooku overpowering three nightsisters with a much shorter attack, while drugged, approaches Vitiate's best.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
All right, I promised the OP I would post a counter-analysis to this so here it is:Firstly, I accept that when amped by a DS nexus Nyriss' lightning is superior to Dooku's - and I accept that Yoda struggled against Dooku's lighting whereas Revan seemingly did not. However I reject this as proof that Revan is anywhere near Yoda's league in terms of power.
And this is because the OPs theory is flawed, because he assumes that Yoda's struggle against Dooku was down to a lack of Force power as opposed to age induced infirmity and over-dependency on a non-combative/scholarly environment to use his Force powers - which in fact, is evidently the case.
Yoda is a scholar, an aged scholar who suffers from arthritis among other things, and because of that Yoda finds it difficult to build up and exert his vast reservoirs of Force energy on his environment. And this is why Yoda struggled against Dooku, not because he lacked power, but lacked the ability to quickly exert it. He was old, frail and slow - but still vastly powerful.
And this is a view that the Jensaarai, who you may be familiar, concurs with. Here is his summary of the topic - relevant until the 32:00 mark.
Indeed compare the following:
Here is Yoda warding of Dooku's TK attacks, note the slow deliberate motions and the obvious exertions it takes for him to do this. Something decidedly absent from the lesser Dooku's attacks. Yet here we have two far younger and more combat-experienced Force Users throwing around projectiles with consummate ease. And then again here a similar pair also wield TK without the exertion Yoda displays. Neither Ventress, Anakin, Malgus or Darach are in the same league as Yoda, and yet - because they are younger and unlike Yoda used to using their powers in the field - they are able to use TK far quicker than he.
And yet we would not argue these individuals superior or even equal Force Users. For despite Yoda's age and scholarly persona, when he is able to bring his full powers to bear through concentration they are vast to say the least, vastly superior to what Revan is capable of.
To apply that to the example given, Yoda would have struggled at first to absorb and redirect Dooku's lightning because it would have required an immediate and unexpected response, which Yoda is not geared towards, however once given time to concentrate, he could negate Dooku's attack with little effort. The novel and the film, demonstrate this, in the film the visible signs of exertion are in keeping with his previous difficult in deflecting Dooku's TK and the overall concept as Yoda as old and scholarly. The novel itself elaborates on this, noting that as Yoda is given time to concentrate, he becomes increasingly more confident and ready:
...but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.
"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.
Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault.--Taken from Attack of the Clones novelisation
And here is the Offical Databank's take on the event:
The Sith claimed to be more powerful than any Jedi, but Yoda easily absorbed his Force lightning attack.
Which, may I add, is canonically superior to the novel anyway.
Revan on the other hand, a practiced, younger warrior who like Anakin, Ventress, Malgus and Darach had been in many battles and became accustomed to use his powers quickly, had no such difficulty in gather his energies immediately and deflecting Nyriss' power.
So again, the premise that Yoda struggled due to a lack of Force ability is flawed, he did not, he struggled because he was out of his element. A far more accurate comparison, to properly compare Revan and Yoda's abilities is to show them at their absolute limits rather than trying to draw flawed conclusions from circumstantial evidence. Instead substitute Nyriss for the Sith Emperor and substitute Dooku for Sidious. For in those engagements where both Yoda and Revan pushed to the limits of their abilities and by comparing their limitations we can accurately compare their power:
Here is what happened when Revan tried to catch the Sith Emperor's lightning:
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him, Revan tried to draw them in and contain them but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than than Nyriss had ever been. Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body, his skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
--Taken from The Old Republic: Revan
To say he struggled would be an understatement, as it is quite obvious that had T3 not intervened Revan would have shortly died.
Noting that after:
...the Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned, but still alive
and he was:
...almost too weak to move
Revan was, quite simply, totally surpassed by the Sith Emperor's power.
Now, to compare that to Yoda's performance against Sidious who is comparable (though markedly superior) in ability:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5SkNrWSk5M&t=5m21s
The difference is staggering, Yoda is not only capable of catching the full brunt of Sidious' lighting without being burned, but he was able to gather his energies and push them back, almost completely overwhelming Sidious before the energy explodes and luck has it that Yoda loses the high ground.
I don't think I need to go into much more detail here, Yoda was able to capably catch Sidious' lighting and almost overwhelm him, whereas against an opponent of similar (though weaker) strength Revan was not only incapable of fully catching the bolts, but was almost killed by them.
Yoda is clearly the superior wielder of tutaminis here, grossly superior, and this only reinforces the fact that Yoda only struggled against Dooku because he was out of his element. To conclude I would draw your attention to Yoda's initial inability to contain Sidious' energy, thanks to his age and scholarly persona, yet after having time to concentrate he pushes back and gains the advantage, and it is at that point that the full extent of his power comes to bear.
TL;DR Yoda struggled against Dooku because as an aged-scholar he was not used to exerting his powers quickly, yet clearly Yoda is grossly superior to Revan given his performance against the Sidious in comparison to Revan's less than impressive performance against the Sith Emperor.
Where is it stated that Yoda's physical limitations require that he need more time to call on his power? I mean, one can conclude that as being the case based on the examples you provided, but it could also be concluded that Yoda just doesn't always use force valor in aiding him in his other force powers such as redirecting other force attacks. Maul's musings in Shadow Conspiracy, that the force flowed effortlessly through Sidious, seems to suggest that the more powerful one is in the force, the easier it is for them to harness it. After all, it took Dooku a bit more physical exertion to overpower and disarm Ventress with TK than it did for Yoda to.
As for everything else you said, I agree completely.