What are numbers? · Philosophy Forum

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

Originally posted by fostersAccount
That's exactly my point. 💃

It's just different ways of writing the same number, it doesn't broaden your understanding of them in any sense.

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

Originally posted by Mindship
Basically, is math an invention or a discovery? I think, more and more, philosophically we're shifting from the notion of 'invention' (for measuring quantities) to 'discovery' (of the underlying order to the universe).

No, it's an invention. A tensor—for instance—can be used to express a certain relation in nature. But the tensor itself isn't physically there, just like the number 2 isn't hovering above a pair of apples.

Shabazz916 Senior Member

Originally posted by Mindship
We don't have to physically be out there; we can make accurate measurements with telescopes and other detection devices (eg, recent detection of gravitational waves has further confirmed our mathematical understanding of the inflationary period during the Big Bang). Heck, it's basically how theoretical physicists "envision" the universe: as a set of constants and their dynamic relationships.
It is because numbers are "universal," we've been able to have robot probes fly by multiple planets and moons in our solar system with amazing accuracy. We can predict, years ahead of time, where these celestial bodies will be. And from what we've been able to observe in interstellar or intergalactic space, the properties of super-distant bodies also appear mathematically predictable (eg, I believe it is how the presence of dark matter surrounding our galaxy was discovered, as well as the discoveries of supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies, and even the discovery that our universe is experiencing accelerated expansion. All done by observation and math).
It is, in fact, the universal applicability of math to virtually everywhere in the observable cosmos that has prompted some scientists to wonder if math is a discovery rather than an invention.

they math can't find a plane in the damn water.. so yeah ill believe they can use a microscope to measure darkness

Mindship Snap out of it.

Originally posted by Astner
No, it's an invention. A tensor—for instance—can be used to express a certain relation in nature. But the tensor itself isn't physically there, just like the number 2 isn't hovering above a pair of apples.

'E' always equaled 'mc^2', whether we ever discovered this mathematical relationship or not. We did not invent this relationship, nor others found in nature, only the symbols for expressing them, eg, like the numeral '2'.

Originally posted by Shabazz916
numbers help us on earth...

Originally posted by Shabazz916
the math can't find a plane in the damn water...

Hey, no one's perfect.

Shabazz916 Senior Member

Originally posted by Mindship
'E' always equaled 'mc^2', whether we ever discovered this mathematical relationship or not. We did not invent this relationship, nor others found in nature, only the symbols for expressing them, eg, like the numeral '2'.
Hey, no one's perfect.

thats why it says it only helps us on earth. notice i didnt say in thee sea

riv6672 Senior Member

Thats a little nitpicky, though..😛

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

Originally posted by Mindship
'E' always equaled 'mc^2', whether we ever discovered this mathematical relationship or not.

ΔE = Δmc² is a mathematical expression of a relationship in nature deduced from postulates and observations. We don't know if this expression perfectly describes the phenomena, what we do know is that it describes the phenomena well enough for practical purposes, i.e. atom bombs and nuclear reactors, and that's all we know.

Originally posted by Mindship
We did not invent this relationship, nor others found in nature, only the symbols for expressing them, eg, like the numeral '2'.

Would you call ΔE=mΔv² a discovery even though it doesn't describe any relation in nature? Probably not.

We discovered the phenomena, we invented the expression.

Mindship Snap out of it.

Originally posted by Astner
We don't know if this expression perfectly describes the phenomena, what we do know is that it describes the phenomena well enough for practical purposes, i.e. atom bombs and nuclear reactors, and that's all we know.

A philosophical point, to be sure, and I agree. We don't know if our entire reductive-materialist model is valid, but it is (apparently) quite reliable. And that's good enough to treat what we discover as a "real" deal, a viable as-if, for all current intents and purposes.

Originally posted by Astner
We discovered the phenomena, we invented the expression.

My friend, we're basically saying the same thing:

Originally posted by Mindship
We did not invent this relationship, nor others found in nature, only the symbols for expressing them.

I think our differences are semantic.

riv6672 Senior Member

Wars have been fought over semantics. 🙁

MF DELPH aka Rakim Illa

I think 'numbers' is an invention as it's a lexicon we've imposed on quantitative values which exist independent of our labels, but it's possible that it is also an emergent property of reality (since at a base quantities simply exist, and intelligent life can acknowledge them).

fostersAccount Filmmaker & Cinephile

What do they all mean

riv6672 Senior Member

😱

Robtard Senor Member

The importance of numbers:

YouTube video

Oneness Restricted

Any number is merely the measurement of a quantity.

This is the most basic concept.

"The brain does much more than just recollects, it analyzes, synthesizes, it generates abstractions. The simplest thought, like the concept of the number one, is an elaborate logical underpinning."

-Carl Sagan on the human brain.

riv6672 Senior Member

That quote seems to go back to the lions that were discussed...