Nai, I wish I gave enough shit to articulate so thoroughly anymore. That being said you utterly trashed him, again.
Anyway Exar Kun having used suspiciously similar sorcery techniques for items such as the Golden Globe pretty much trashes how much import Anthony puts on Revan's involvement in the Thought Bomb.
I might actually post a serious comparison given your own efforts.
I'm here to be the Anti-Aurbere. Ant's behavior is reminiscent of my own; he goes out of his way to "win" in these debates, and works best when they are people doubting his skills, rather than blowing him every step of the way. I'm here to jeer him on all the way, so he can unlock his inner beast-mode. He is one of my biggest weapons in ending the Kun wank once and for all.
I can assure you Freshest, that my loyalty is not easily changed.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I am referring to the injuries he sustained, the most recent one being him falling into a chasm that looked like an insane drop. He hadn't any means of seriously healing himself from that.Also, it had not been months or anywhere close to that long. Vima fled the Jedi conference and as soon as Nomi found out about it she went looking for her. It's still absolutely no means of retaining skill he'd let atrophy for 13 years since.
It was long enough for the duo to carve giant heads of their masters in ice.
And yea, it *should* be enough to get back in the habit. Even when Vima first clashed, some of his old skills were still there, and with practice and a live foe, getting back in the game isn't too hard. Refreshing a skill is easier than getting there in the first place or improving.
View Kanan, who hadn't drawn his saber in years but was able to get his skills back pretty fast. Or Cade similarly.
First off: I'm not making an argument. I'm questioning your judgement.
Secondly: Sometimes it is important to put things into context. In this case, a simple look at the history of Freedon Nadd within the sourcebooks reveals the following:"He [Nadd] would return, he knew. He only needed time to become the greatest Sith sorcerer that had ever existed, and then he would return to take his revenge on the Jedi. - Tales of the Jedi Companion.
Emphasis mine. It doesn't make sense to assume that Nadd ignored everything that would aid him in his original quest.
I did state, however, that nothing says he knew close to the sorcery knowledge that Revan has. Which is true. Get over it.
You're literally arguing an "all or nothing" thing here. Nadd either completely ignored Sith rituals or mastered every technique.
🙄 Why can't he just have a respectable knowledge on the subject?
tl;dr: the fact Nadd wanted to be the greatest sorcerer ever doesn't mean he set out to discover every known Sith ritual.
"After his death, Sadow's screts were gained by Freedon Nadd, who passed them on to Exar Kun. Because none of them came to a glorious end, I think it's best that I guard Sadow's teachings a bit longer. However, I am tempted to incorporate some of his findings into my own book, The Creation of Monsters. - Darth Sidious, Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, p.175Emphasis mine. Not only does Sidious confirm that the knowledge was passed on from Sadow to Nadd (and then to Kun). He also states he wanted to use the knowledge in a book specifically dealing with Sith sorcery / alchemy.
I never denied that Nadd had an extensive understanding on Sith Sorcery. That's fairly ****ing obvious that all the Ancient Sith Lords did.
I, however, rejected the notion that he's better than Revan, whose knowledge on Sith Sorcery was so great that it was more than an entire library of books.
So no, the fact Palpatine wanted to include Nadd's findings (well, Sadow's that Nadd simply learned) in one book is not even close to a valid argument of his superiority to Revan.
tl;dr: the fact Palpatine wanted to write a part of his book about Sadow's findings doesn't mean they are better than Revan, whose knowledge fills hundreds of books.
Again. A little bit of thinking on your side or applying context would be appreciated. Sadow and Kressh were rivals even before becoming contestants for the mantle of the Dark Lord. If Kressh's mastery of alchemy / sorcery had given him an decisive advantage over Sadow, he would have capitalized on it. Nothing like that happens, which leads to the suggestion that Sadow had methods to counter any sorcery-based advantage that Kressh could come up with.
Man, it's almost as if there is an example in Star Wars already that has the opposite of what you're saying...
mmm
Oh right, Karness Muur and Sorzus Syn.
Sorzus Syn created an uber powerful amulet (just like Ludo Kressh did) and gave it to Karness Muur since he requested it.
"Karness Muur requested I create this, but it shall be my triumph. My experimentation with the Heart of Graush and my alchemic
mastery of raising Sithspawn will culminate in the first Great Amulet to be worn by one of the Lords of the Sith." (Book of the Sith, 26)
Syn was, clearly, ahead of all the other ancients on the field of alchemy / sorcery. Muur wasn't even capable of making his own talisman.
Nevertheless, Muur, like Sadow, was still extremely proficient in alchemy / sorcery, capable of even creating leviathans.
Just look at the ****er Muur made. ^
Muur was the more powerful of the two (he was compared to Palpatine by Darth Vader and was more powerful than vong-invested Darth Krayt).
Just like Sadow was greater than Kressh in the Force, but nevertheless they were still rivals (just like Muur and Syn).
Hopefully you can see where I'm going with this:
Syn, who explicitly plotted Muur's downfall, was unable to capitalize on her noticeable advantage on another proficient sorcerer who also happened to be more powerful than her.
So no, given history has given us an explicit example of what you said couldn't happen, it's total bullshit to suggest Kressh and Sadow were equal to each other on that field if nothing states it.
tl;dr: Kressh and Sadow can be rivals without them being equals on the playing field of sorcery / alchemy.
Furthermore you're still ignoring Sadow's status as one of the most powerful Sith sorcerers in history
and still haven't provided anything to suggest that Revan even remotely compares to him.
Revan knowing...
a.) everything on Malachor V
b.) studying Korriban extensively
c.) studying Nathema extensively
d.) the thought bomb
e.) the planet-wide fire ritual
f.) the immortality Nathema ritual
g.) more than the Sith Academy's entire archives
h.) how to create dark side aberrations
...is my argument.
👆 And, when I compare that to Sadow's, I find Revan more knowledgeable.
tl;dr: Revan's knowledge is more impressive than Sadow's storehouse of information on Yavin IV.
You know: Sadow is the guy who invented a ship with a force based weapon capable of making stars go supernova by pulling their cores out.
Give me a call when Revan comes up with something compareable.
It is "massive speculation" that an individual that was heralded as the greatest student the Jedi have seen from the start of their order to his arrival, did learn everything from them that he could?"In fact, all the instructors and all the other apprentices had commented on his proficiency and his ability to assimilate th
e lore and techniques presented to him." - Tales of the Jedi Companion.When he departs from Ossus, it is noted that "the Jedi Masters were weaker than he was". And it is also noted that he needed to turn to a different source of knowledge, since the Jedi couldn't offer him more:
[i]"But he [Nadd] needed to learn more about the Force, needeed to possess more power than the Jedi. From all of his studies he knew of only one source that would readily accept his apprenticeship and teach him to wield the Force wiht impunity...the Sith." - Tales of the Jedi Companion
And there still are those abilities hidden in Holocron and tomes... wink
It should come at no surprise Nadd was more powerful than the Jedi Masters. 😬 His potential was far greater, no shit.
The quotes you provided aren't credible. They seem to be heavily tainted by looking at things from Nadd's perspective. 😬
tl;dr: It's speculation to assume he knew everything on Ossus. Wait, no, it's outright retarded based on the limited quotes you given.
What you have is a quote from Kreia suggesting that he had learned all he could from the Masters and a similar statement from Mical. There is no mentioning of Revan running through archives or utilizing holocrons. He just reached a point where he couldn't learn anything else from the masters, that he had access to.That hardly compares to Nadd, who was trained on the orders "main world" and had the Libary of Ossus at his disposal, that was, as you know, plundered and destroyed before Revan's time. And in terms of Sith knowledge, Nadd had a real Sith as source for knowledge were Revan had...what? A Sith "school" worth of knowledge (Malachor V) and whatever the Emperor chose to share with him - which is pretty much unspecified. Great.
Born in the Outer Rims in 3994 BBY, Revan was taken into the Jedi Order at an early age. He quickly rose to prominence as the most promising Jedi of the Order alongside fellow Jedi Malak. They trained on both Dantooine's Jedi Enclave and Coruscant's Jedi Temple under many Masters. I will highlight what Revan would have learned from his three most prominent masters below.
Kreia: This cryptic yet immensely powerful Force-user was Revan's first Jedi Master. Kreia has extensive knowledge on all forms of lightsaber combat, and likewise demonstrably taught Meetra Surik the advanced fundamentals of each form. She also had great knowledge in Beast Control, Breath Control, and the Force Forms. She explains to Meetra Surik that Revan learned everything he could from her, which would logically include all the content listed above. Any argument saying Kreia's knowledge on these powers were discovered on Malachor V is a fallacious argument since she merely studied the remains of what Revan already mastered.
"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew herself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters." (Kreia, TSL)
Master Dorak and Zhar Lestin: Regarded by Bastila Shan and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia as two of "the most powerful Jedi" in the entire galaxy, these two Jedi were among the most respected on the Jedi Council. Master Dorak served as a head Jedi Historian, having total authority and knowledge of the ancient Jedi's secrets and lore. While on Coruscant, Revan and Malak also studied extensively under Zhar Lestin "for additional training." Revan's "hunger to learn seemed insatiable," and he learned all he could from them. Eventually "there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi," and he returned back to his first master - Kreia. However, these masters would train his redeemed self.
Revan's knowledge was not limited to the three masters above, however. The complete list of Jedi who took Revan under their guidance is unknown, though it is known to be more than what is listed above. Like he did with the other masters, he learned everything he could from them as well. One concept Revan took particular interest in was Force Bonds. Zez-Kai Ell, a master on understanding the concept, praised Revan's extensive knowledge on it.
Some key points to take out of this:
a.) Kreia said Revan had "nothing more to learn from the Jedi." That means he mastered everything to the highest degree possible.
b.) Revan studied under Kreia (an extremely knowledgeable Jedi) and other Jedi Council members who had access to the Jedi Library.
And nah, Malachor (which had entire underground cities full of ancient knowledge that covered the entire planet) is a greater source of knowledge than Sadow.
I stand firm by that statement since you haven't come close to proving me wrong.
Yeah.
Worlds just were destroyed by a supernova triggered by ripping a core out of a star. Other worlds were depopulated by Kun's Dark Reaper. Almost the entire Massassi population on Yavin 4 was killed by a single ad hoc ritual of Kun, who conducted it as a reaction to the entire Jedi Order appearing in the sky above the planet.
So nothing applicable to this debate? Gotcha. 👆
Laughable. "He had massive nexus!" He was utilizing technology that he had constructed himself instead of just utilizing a machinery build by somebody else. And, considering whom you're arguing for, this is especially laughable, given that Revan was not only utilizing aforementioned technology, but was also on Yavin 4 where every temple serves as a force nexus (like, I don't know, the Temple of Sacfrifice?).
It wasn't like a ritual that can be then compared with Revan or Kun's stuff. It was using direct Sith magic / Telekinesis / etc.
And indeed, Revan was amplified on the Temple of Sacrifice doing his ritual, but so was Kun, so that's not really an argument.
I didn't say that he regarded them higher. I merely pointed out that he saw the stuff Kun and Sadow did pull off as "exeggeration" and "myth".
Context is key. And this argument of yours is pathetic anyways. You're debating for the sake of debating.
Do you know the difference between siting a character as a source and just pointing to the direction of a game? [b]Characters are fallible[/b. And while I'm not suggesting that Talos errs in that particular case, it doesn't change for the original argument. To remind you: Kun and Sadow constructed and used similar machinery. Revan did not construct it, he just knew how to utilize it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but relooking through the files for SOR, only C2-D4 said Revan was using an ancient Sith device.
So no, Talos' word has way more credibility than you and D4. I accept your concession - an hero. 👆
And uh, Kun and Sadow didn't construct anything either. The Massassi did that for them.
And Kun simply used the blueprints left over by Sadow. 😬 I'm pretty sure Revan can ****ing do that too, rofl.
And nah, I haven't seen anything like the Temple of Sacrifice's Machine Core.
One could, of course, ask, why Valkorion would construct such a temple on Yavin 4, since he is perfectly capable of killing all life on a planet without technological aid. But then, the SW:TOR writers seldomly care about logic these days.
Without the device, Revan wasn't capable of doing anything of compareable magnitude, where other people steamrolled armies with Sith magic or walked into the Senate building to dominate the minds of all Senators without even so much as a gesture.
If you are talking individually, he could use Sith magic to utterly molest the strike team he was fighting for a lot of the fight.
I haven't seen Kun ever successfully use magic on high-tier Jedi / Sith. In fact, sources suggest he tried against Droma and Vodo and failed.
And Revan had used Force Corruption on a MASSIVE-scale above Malachor V, drawing on it's power to turn the tide of the battle and corrupt hundreds of Jedi simultaneously.
The keyword here being "most". Kun, just as example, has constructed the Dark Reaper and most of the temples on Yavin 4.
The Reaper is the only thing of note he built and I hardly even consider it quantifiable for this thread.
Nope. I point out what the text says. wink
I'm quite aware of the fact, that Revan gave the ritual to Bane. That still doesn't say much about the conception of the ability.
Revan, apparently, knew how to operate a machine capable of destroying all life on Yavin 4, but didn't even know how to do that correctly, if we can trust your own RT, which states that Revan would "just" have been capable of exterminating all life in a 1km radius.
Revan's "1km radius" attack wasn't the ritual. The Machine Core wasn't involved or anything.
That was purely him drawing on the Temple of Sacrifice for power then unleashing it.
The ritual, which he didn't get to do because he was stopped before he began, would have destroyed all life on Yavin (that's the ****ing plot).
And after this, they went to confront Vitiate, who turned them into his puppets with his mind domination. Where, on the way, did Revan develop the thought bomb exactly?
Can it be that Revan really just discovered the "thought bomb" instead of "inventing" it, especially if we consider the hint that the same [or at least a similar] technique has been used by Ancient Sith before?
It couldn't be anyone before because no one else had the transcript.
It couldn't be anyone after because the information was in Revan's holocron.
---
Posting all of this now. Still need to respond to his final parts. Expect typos bc I don't care enough to proofread.
Getting tired / bored at this point so whatever:
What significance are you talking about?
The thought bomb, as it was used on Ruusan, was a ritual that required the orchestrated effort of more than a dozen Sith Lords to perform and killed the users as well.
Furthermore it just affected a very limited area and hadn't the Jedi moved their troops into the Sith perimeter for an attack, it would never have killed that many. Under which circumstances do you even consider this valueable? It was almost tailored for the situation on Ruusan: A last resort weapon to use, when you know, that you would lose your life anyway and just want to take as many enemies with you as you can.No. It didn't. Hoth was leading about a hundred Jedi against the remaining (20?) Sith Lords when Kaan detonated the thought bomb.
If we take the usual narration in the SW:TOR seriously, Tulak Hord killed more Jedi than that in a single battle.
"Rather than admit defeat, Kaan released the Thought Bomb. The way of dark energy sucked dry almost all of the Force-users on Ruusan, desiccating and destroying their bodies, absorbing their souls into a huge black egg-like construct."
―The Official Star Wars Fact File 129
Even if there is a way to utilize it without getting killed yourself (e.g. setting the bomb up and run before it goes off), its effect in comparison to the power / preperation time needed is laughable when compared to abilities than can be used by single individuals (and are less dangerous for the user) and even conventional weaponary.
In this case, one has to wonder why the proposed invention of the thought bomb by Revan is so important to you, if other people came up with similar abilities generating similar effects.
I bet the house sized Sithwyrm that Kun needed to blast multiple times with room sized Dark Side energy beams, before it finally went down, would happily disagree with that personal opinion of yourself.
And Malaphar was regarded as one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy and challenged a strike team consisting of Nox/Hero/Wrath/Barsen/allies.
NGL, I forgot about the giant Sithwyrm though. My statement still applies to Kun though and (maybe?) Sadow. 😉
This is "top sorcerers", not "top alchemists" anyway, so not sure why anything of this matters now thinking about it.
You mean, unlike Revan, who would have ignored all those uber-powerful dark side nexus temples on Yavin 4 to conduct his supposed Sith Alchemy out in the jungle? Yup. That sounds reasonable.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I'm here to jeer him on all the way, so he can unlock his inner beast-mode. He is one of my biggest weapons in ending the Kun wank once and for all.
My last post was messy and rushed, but should definitely suffice ATM since a lot of points were won.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So does anyone actually want me to try to respond to AP (either for the luz or legit) or are we just going to universally accept that as a concession on her part simply due to how retarded it was?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0
If you want, I mean.