Exar Kun has been confirmed to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time, his multiple comparisons to Darth Sidious certainly backs up the view point that he is on the absolute top-tier.
He proves he is on the top-tier by amping Kyp Durron to beyond Darth Vader's power, whilst still nothing but a spirit, with only some of his own lost power and 'vast reserves' made up for by drawing on Kyp, Gantoris and Streen. Even the temple's focal points could only sustain his will, not make up any measure of power for him.
That legitimately confirms that Exar Kun as a 'disembodied will' in the Jedi Academy Trilogy was only at a fraction of his power. This meaning that in his prime in TOTJ, he's capable of fully overwhelming a fully defensive JA!Luke tier combatant; whom had already achieved ROTJ Darth Vader's prowess.
Guess who else could easily defeat DE/JA Luke? Reborn Palpatine, whom Luke repeatedly compares Kun to.
These repeated comparisons are adhered to, by the fact that Exar Kun's spirit was an extremely powerful focal point/nexus of Dark Side energy; just like Darth Sidious had been.
Now hold your horses, I am by no means implying that Exar Kun is as powerful as the most powerful Sith ever; I am simply stating that these accolades, feats, and hype prove Exar Kun's power is on the lower end of the top tier Force Users in the mythos.
People can ignorantly claim this to be nothing but unsubstantiated wank, but I await a serious rebuttal.
On the other side of things, I actually place Revan on the same tier of power. His ability to Tutaminis the Force Lightning of Sith Emperor Vitiate, and successfully take on the Coalition Forces leaders, then only lose due to an enemy amp; are both feats strong enough to support his accolades/hype as a legendary top Force User.
In terms of knowledge, Exar Kun knew of techniques that a Luke Skywalker- whom was going all-out defensively, with every technique he knew- was utterly over-whelmed and described as futile in his efforts.
That isn't just some drain hax or some other generic sorcery attack, that's about as strong a technique as we have seen a sorcerer utilise in combat.
In terms of dueling, Kun is an unparalelled master of Niman and has incorporated unique saberstaff sequences, Trakata elements, and an array of dual-phase techniques. It's a personal hybrid form that nobody in the mythos has replicated.
His only two challengers as the supreme Form VI master are both still trapped within the boundaries of typical Niman usage.
Neither Darth Maul or Darth Krayt adapted the form to become an 'unstoppable' style, they only utilised elements and mixed those with excellent but entirely traditional masteries of saberstaff and Jar'kai duelling respectively.
Exar Kun was considered unparalelled in his time as a lightsaber master, said time being the Tales of the Jedi era, an era in which more Jedi Weapon Masters lived than any other.
His feats against Vodo and Ulic are higher than anything Revan can overcome. Ulic Qel-Droma has on three occasions been described as the archetypal Luke Skywalker hero, a prodigy and an excellent swordsman, hailed and praised repeatedly for his skills with the blade.
Ulic's ability to contend with Sylvar is an utterly under-appreciated feat.
Ulic hadn't dueled in 13 years, was physically out of his prime and had lost all connection to the Force. Meaning he was extremely rusty and, as described in Force and Destiny, at a serious disadvantage after having relied so heavily on his immense Force prowess, as one of the most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history.
Even despite this he managed to successfully fight a former Jedi Knight in Sylvar, whom has moved faster than Nomi Sunrider could even see, one-shotted Massassi Warriors, and slaughtered an entire Killik Nest single-handedly without any injury.
Importantly, Sylvar was even more bloodlusted and enraged than she had been when she opened up a clinic in that Killik Nest.
Last but not least, do not forget that Ulic is a Form V: Djem-So master, a form designed for high aggression and counter-attacking. Despite that he fought a purely defensive duel against Sylvar, putting him in an even more disadvantageous position.
So without a doubt in Ulic Qel-Droma we have a natural born prodigy of a master duellist, whom has been compared to Luke Skywalker as an excellent swordsman.
Yet Exar Kun, without his saberstaff and his unique deadly style; perfectly stalemated Ulic Qel-Droma in a combat that would have lasted hours until they both died.
Now considering that they are such masters of lightsaber skill so as to fail to make any kind of mistake or leave any kind of opening for hours, then they are both clearly above the likes of Malak, Revan's main claim to lightsaber fame.
That isn't even in Kun's prime as a duellist either, so yeah Exar Kun is on a completely different level to Revan.
Now Anthony, if you insist on these baseless claims of Revan's 'superiority' in 'virtually everything' then that is your choice; I can only hope you will see how futile it is to make such definitive claims when infact solid arguments can be made for either.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Exar Kun has been confirmed to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time, his multiple comparisons to Darth Sidious certainly backs up the view point that he is on the absolute top-tier.He proves he is on the top-tier by amping Kyp Durron to beyond Darth Vader's power, whilst still nothing but a spirit, with only some of his own lost power and 'vast reserves' made up for by drawing on Kyp, Gantoris and Streen. Even the temple's focal points could only sustain his will, not make up any measure of power for him.
That legitimately confirms that Exar Kun as a 'disembodied will' in the Jedi Academy Trilogy was only at a fraction of his power. This meaning that in his prime in TOTJ, he's capable of fully overwhelming a fully defensive JA!Luke tier combatant; whom had already achieved ROTJ Darth Vader's prowess.
Guess who else could easily defeat DE/JA Luke? Reborn Palpatine, whom Luke repeatedly compares Kun to.
These repeated comparisons are adhered to, by the fact that Exar Kun's spirit was an extremely powerful focal point/nexus of Dark Side energy; just like Darth Sidious had been.
Now hold your horses, I am by no means implying that Exar Kun is as powerful as the most powerful Sith ever; I am simply stating that these accolades, feats, and hype prove Exar Kun's power is on the lower end of the top tier Force Users in the mythos.
People can ignorantly claim this to be nothing but unsubstantiated wank, but I await a serious rebuttal.
On the other side of things, I actually place Revan on the same tier of power. His ability to Tutaminis the Force Lightning of Sith Emperor Vitiate, and successfully take on the Coalition Forces leaders, then only lose due to an enemy amp; are both feats strong enough to support his accolades/hype as a legendary top Force User.
In terms of knowledge, Exar Kun knew of techniques that a Luke Skywalker- whom was going all-out defensively, with every technique he knew- was utterly over-whelmed and described as futile in his efforts.
That isn't just some drain hax or some other generic sorcery attack, that's about as strong a technique as we have seen a sorcerer utilise in combat.
In terms of dueling, Kun is an unparalelled master of Niman and has incorporated unique saberstaff sequences, Trakata elements, and an array of dual-phase techniques. It's a personal hybrid form that nobody in the mythos has replicated.
His only two challengers as the supreme Form VI master are both still trapped within the boundaries of typical Niman usage.
Neither Darth Maul or Darth Krayt adapted the form to become an 'unstoppable' style, they only utilised elements and mixed those with excellent but entirely traditional masteries of saberstaff and Jar'kai duelling respectively.
Exar Kun was considered unparalelled in his time as a lightsaber master, said time being the Tales of the Jedi era, an era in which more Jedi Weapon Masters lived than any other.
His feats against Vodo and Ulic are higher than anything Revan can overcome. Ulic Qel-Droma has on three occasions been described as the archetypal Luke Skywalker hero, a prodigy and an excellent swordsman, hailed and praised repeatedly for his skills with the blade.
Ulic's ability to contend with Sylvar is an utterly under-appreciated feat.
Ulic hadn't dueled in 13 years, was physically out of his prime and had lost all connection to the Force. Meaning he was extremely rusty and, as described in Force and Destiny, at a serious disadvantage after having relied so heavily on his immense Force prowess, as one of the most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history.
Even despite this he managed to successfully fight a former Jedi Knight in Sylvar, whom has moved faster than Nomi Sunrider could even see, one-shotted Massassi Warriors, and slaughtered an entire Killik Nest single-handedly without any injury.
Importantly, Sylvar was even more bloodlusted and enraged than she had been when she opened up a clinic in that Killik Nest.
Last but not least, do not forget that Ulic is a Form V: Djem-So master, a form designed for high aggression and counter-attacking. Despite that he fought a purely defensive duel against Sylvar, putting him in an even more disadvantageous position.
So without a doubt in Ulic Qel-Droma we have a natural born prodigy of a master duellist, whom has been compared to Luke Skywalker as an excellent swordsman.
Yet Exar Kun, without his saberstaff and his unique deadly style; perfectly stalemated Ulic Qel-Droma in a combat that would have lasted hours until they both died.
Now considering that they are such masters of lightsaber skill so as to fail to make any kind of mistake or leave any kind of opening for hours, then they are both clearly above the likes of Malak, Revan's main claim to lightsaber fame.
That isn't even in Kun's prime as a duellist either, so yeah Exar Kun is on a completely different level to Revan.
Now Anthony, if you insist on these baseless claims of Revan's 'superiority' in 'virtually everything' then that is your choice; I can only hope you will see how futile it is to make such definitive claims when infact solid arguments can be made for either.
Re: Ulic out of his physical prime.
He was in his 20s as a Jedi/Sith, I doubt he was much more than mid-to-late thirties when he died! I mean, we talk about characters being past their physical prime, but those are, y'know, *old* people, not barely middle age people in fantastic shape ^^
And heck, on him 'not having fought a duel in years,' while true he hadn't fought a serious one, he *did* just spend the last several months training a student with regular lightsaber sparing. So, y'know, he was back in practice and had learned to compensate for his lack of force.
I am referring to the injuries he sustained, the most recent one being him falling into a chasm that looked like an insane drop. He hadn't any means of seriously healing himself from that.
Also, it had not been months or anywhere close to that long. Vima fled the Jedi conference and as soon as Nomi found out about it she went looking for her. It's still absolutely no means of retaining skill he'd let atrophy for 13 years since.
Originally posted by ILS
Nai
Yup. I registered here when I was three years old. Then I started to debate 20-somethings in a foreign language, occassionally demonstrating my knowledge in the fields of literature analysis, philosophy and history.
I wonder, why you aren't on your knees, worshipping my prodigal person.
🙄
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@"Nai is rarely on here": True, but that doesn't stop him from responding to debates rapid-fire, tbh.
There are far more important things to me than debating with you, Ant.
And you may want to consider, that I live in Germany. My last post in this thread was done at 2.27 a.m. local time. I usually don't respond while I'm sleeping, working or spending time with my family.
But back to the topic...
This part here is probably the biggest flaw in your argument:
The quote states Freedon Nadd knows "all the Jedi and Sith Force powers."
It does not state, nor mean, he knows all Force-related techniques / practices.
A Force power is something like Telekiensis, Force Lightning, Force Storm, etc.
Elaborate Sith rituals do not fit under the umbrella of a "Force power".
First off: I'm not making an argument. I'm questioning your judgement.
Secondly: Sometimes it is important to put things into context. In this case, a simple look at the history of Freedon Nadd within the sourcebooks reveals the following:
"He [Nadd] would return, he knew. He only needed time to become the greatest Sith sorcerer that had ever existed, and then he would return to take his revenge on the Jedi. - Tales of the Jedi Companion.
Emphasis mine. It doesn't make sense to assume that Nadd ignored everything that would aid him in his original quest. Furthermore the quote in question continues: "[...]as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes." Do force related techniques and practices (i.e. rituals) count among "abilities"? I'd say so. But we could look at another source for reference:
"After his death, Sadow's screts were gained by Freedon Nadd, who passed them on to Exar Kun. Because none of them came to a glorious end, I think it's best that I guard Sadow's teachings a bit longer. However, I am tempted to incorporate some of his findings into my own book, The Creation of Monsters. - Darth Sidious, Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, p.175
Emphasis mine. Not only does Sidious confirm that the knowledge was passed on from Sadow to Nadd (and then to Kun). He also states he wanted to use the knowledge in a book specifically dealing with Sith sorcery / alchemy.
Where was it stated Naga Sadow was a greater sorcerer / alchemist than Ludo Kressh? Or even comparable, for that matter?
Looks like speculation on your part. Malak and Revan were rivals. I don't recall Malak being close to Revan's knowledge on Sith lore.
Also, the fact Nadd learned everything from Sadow doesn't mean he's better than Revan when Sadow isn't even better than Revan.
Again. A little bit of thinking on your side or applying context would be appreciated. Sadow and Kressh were rivals even before becoming contestants for the mantle of the Dark Lord. If Kressh's mastery of alchemy / sorcery had given him an decisive advantage over Sadow, he would have capitalized on it. Nothing like that happens, which leads to the suggestion that Sadow had methods to counter any sorcery-based advantage that Kressh could come up with.
Furthermore you're still ignoring Sadow's status as one of the most powerful Sith sorcerers in history and still haven't provided anything to suggest that Revan even remotely compares to him. You know: Sadow is the guy who invented a ship with a force based weapon capable of making stars go supernova by pulling their cores out. Give me a call when Revan comes up with something compareable.
Nevertheless, it's still massive speculation on your part. Do you have a quote that says Nadd learned everything he could for the Jedi?
It is "massive speculation" that an individual that was heralded as the greatest student the Jedi have seen from the start of their order to his arrival, did learn everything from them that he could?
"In fact, all the instructors and all the other apprentices had commented on his proficiency and his ability to assimilate the lore and techniques presented to him." - Tales of the Jedi Companion.
When he departs from Ossus, it is noted that "the Jedi Masters were weaker than he was". And it is also noted that he needed to turn to a different source of knowledge, since the Jedi couldn't offer him more:
[i]"But he [Nadd] needed to learn more about the Force, needeed to possess more power than the Jedi. From all of his studies he knew of only one source that would readily accept his apprenticeship and teach him to wield the Force wiht impunity...the Sith." - Tales of the Jedi Companion
And there still are those abilities hidden in Holocron and tomes... 😉
I have one in regards to Revan. So, it looks like he's beating him in that field too.
Pardon me.
Once more, you fail exactly where I stated you'd do it. Context.
What you have is a quote from Kreia suggesting that he had learned all he could from the Masters and a similar statement from Mical. There is no mentioning of Revan running through archives or utilizing holocrons. He just reached a point where he couldn't learn anything else from the masters, that he had access to.
That hardly compares to Nadd, who was trained on the orders "main world" and had the Libary of Ossus at his disposal, that was, as you know, plundered and destroyed before Revan's time. And in terms of Sith knowledge, Nadd had a real Sith as source for knowledge were Revan had...what? A Sith "school" worth of knowledge (Malachor V) and whatever the Emperor chose to share with him - which is pretty much unspecified. Great.
Hm? Darth Bane wasn't aware of all the details on Revan's actions. In fact, to my knowledge, all he really knew was:1.) Revan and Malak were former Jedi that turned Sith and were a hairsbreath away from defeating the Republic.
2.) Revan redeemed himself back to the light, destroyed the Sith Academy on Korriban, than beat Malak over Lehon.Please note that the quote referenced was stated by Darth Bane before coming across his holocron. erm
It seems to be kind of unlikely that somebody "forgot" the details of the story of Sith Lord returning to the light side, especially when aforementioned persona saved the entire Galaxy.
Of course "Path of Destruction" was released before SW:TOR and, hence, can't take into account the later part of Revan's history. And who cares? Revan has still not done anything remotely close to what people like Kun, Sadow or Nadd were capable of, if we trace their stories through Legends history of the SWU.
Also, LMFAO @ "when we know that it actually happened." No "worlds" were ever "brought low."
Yeah.
Worlds just were destroyed by a supernova triggered by ripping a core out of a star. Other worlds were depopulated by Kun's Dark Reaper. Almost the entire Massassi population on Yavin 4 was killed by a single ad hoc ritual of Kun, who conducted it as a reaction to the entire Jedi Order appearing in the sky above the planet.
And yeah, I would be pretty impressed by Naga Sadow exploding a star too without knowing he had massive nexus.
Laughable. "He had massive nexus!" He was utilizing technology that he had constructed himself instead of just utilizing a machinery build by somebody else. And, considering whom you're arguing for, this is especially laughable, given that Revan was not only utilizing aforementioned technology, but was also on Yavin 4 where every temple serves as a force nexus (like, I don't know, the Temple of Sacfrifice?).
Suggesting Bane regarded Kun or Sadow in higher regard than Revan, who was the basis of his entire Rule of Two and provided him with all the tools necessary to overcome Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness is absolutely ridiculous.
I didn't say that he regarded them higher. I merely pointed out that he saw the stuff Kun and Sadow did pull off as "exeggeration" and "myth".
http://www.swtor.com/holonet/companions/talos-drellikHe's about as credible an in-source character can get in regards to archaeology and whatnot.
Do you know the difference between siting a character as a source and just pointing to the direction of a game? [b]Characters are fallible[/b. And while I'm not suggesting that Talos errs in that particular case, it doesn't change for the original argument. To remind you: Kun and Sadow constructed and used similar machinery. Revan did not construct it, he just knew how to utilize it.
One could, of course, ask, why Valkorion would construct such a temple on Yavin 4, since he is perfectly capable of killing all life on a planet without technological aid. But then, the SW:TOR writers seldomly care about logic these days.
(continued from above)
Uh, are you serious?Revan knowing how to do a ritual that would destroy all life on Yavin IV surpasses Kun's prized and main ritual.
Uh, are you serious?
Revan, apparently, knew how to operate a machine capable of destroying all life on Yavin 4, but didn't even know how to do that correctly, if we can trust your own RT, which states that Revan would "just" have been capable of exterminating all life in a 1km radius.
And it's not as if he failed to do it - he would have been successful if not for the strike team that literally came in and destroyed the device.
Correct. Without the device, Revan wasn't capable of doing anything of compareable magnitude, where other people steamrolled armies with Sith magic or walked into the Senate building to dominate the minds of all Senators without even so much as a gesture.
BTW, most of the knowledge / equipment / temples / rituals that Kun has is not via his own creation, but from the leftovers as Naga Sadow.
The keyword here being "most". Kun, just as example, has constructed the Dark Reaper and most of the temples on Yavin 4.
Yeah, I discussed this on another topic. Why didn't you raise your concern then.
Because I'm not reading everything here.
Did you... did you really just ****ing say that Darth Bane created the thought bomb?
Nope. I point out what the text says. 😉
I'm quite aware of the fact, that Revan gave the ritual to Bane. That still doesn't say much about the conception of the ability.
Also, no. Revan and Malak went to Nathema after the Battle of Malachor V. They were there for quite some time trying to find Vitiate's location:"He knew with absolute certainty that he had been to this world before. He remembered its deserted city and its lifeless surface. He remembered searching the empty buildings with Malak, looking for archives, records, and astrogation charts that would guide them on the next step of the journey. But most of all, he remembered the horror of a dead planet entirely stripped of the Force." --TOR:R
Yes.
And after this, they went to confront Vitiate, who turned them into his puppets with his mind domination. Where, on the way, did Revan develop the thought bomb exactly?
The explanation that the original source material offers appears to be the more plausible one:
"Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron’s avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely
wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he would ever dare to use them. Yet he dutifully copied them down on sheaves of flimsi, preserving them so he could study them in greater depth later." - Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
Can it be that Revan really just discovered the "thought bomb" instead of "inventing" it, especially if we consider the hint that the same [or at least a similar] technique has been used by Ancient Sith before?
Tell me, how does it feel to be a failure?
I don't know. How do you feel?
Did you just compare Sadow/Kun/Nadd to ****ing Vitiate? ROFL.
Nope. I did just point out that Vitiate came from the same Ancient Sith Empire (and hence a similar knowledge base) that Sadow ruled for a short time. But one could point out that Vitiate himself didn't participate in that competion, for whatever reason.
And your attempts on trying to diminish the significance of the thought bomb is laughable.
What significance are you talking about?
The thought bomb, as it was used on Ruusan, was a ritual that required the orchestrated effort of more than a dozen Sith Lords to perform and killed the users as well. Furthermore it just affected a very limited area and hadn't the Jedi moved their troops into the Sith perimeter for an attack, it would never have killed that many. Under which circumstances do you even consider this valueable? It was almost tailored for the situation on Ruusan: A last resort weapon to use, when you know, that you would lose your life anyway and just want to take as many enemies with you as you can.
Even if there is a way to utilize it without getting killed yourself (e.g. setting the bomb up and run before it goes off), its effect in comparison to the power / preperation time needed is laughable when compared to abilities than can be used by single individuals (and are less dangerous for the user) and even conventional weaponary.
Many Sth rituals are similar in concept and result - that doesn't mean they aren't all unique and vary in terms of power.
In this case, one has to wonder why the proposed invention of the thought bomb by Revan is so important to you, if other people came up with similar abilities generating similar effects.
The thought bomb destroyed thousands of Jedi / Sith and created one of the most potent nexus' ever.
No. It didn't. Hoth was leading about a hundred Jedi against the remaining (20?) Sith Lords when Kaan detonated the thought bomb.
If we take the usual narration in the SW:TOR seriously, Tulak Hord killed more Jedi than that in a single battle.
For one, if Revan truly did create Malaphar the Savage, that beats any of Kun or Sadow's creations.
I bet the house sized Sithwyrm that Kun needed to blast multiple times with room sized Dark Side energy beams, before it finally went down, would happily disagree with that personal opinion of yourself.
Secondly, Kun made all his creations in an uber-powerful dark side nexus temple specifically designed to aid him in the creation of his monsters.
You mean, unlike Revan, who would have ignored all those uber-powerful dark side nexus temples on Yavin 4 to conduct his supposed Sith Alchemy out in the jungle? Yup. That sounds reasonable. 🙄
It's literally not that impressive. Accept it.
It's certainly more impressive than something that can't even be attributed to Revan with certainty. 😉
My respect thread has probably received more praise and attention than you have in the past fifty years.
Oh. I'm totally impressed by your supposed "e-fame". Well. Actually not.
Mainly because getting applaus from random people on the internet, of whom perhabs not a single one read your RT completely, doesn't seem to be that important to me.
I'm not really concerned with your distaste of it, sorry. In fact - I'm going to be that guy who expands on the parts you hate.a hero
I don't "hate" anything about it. I just pointed out that compilations of quotes, without contextualisation and further analysis aren't worth reading, because you will get the required information only by reading the source-material for yourself (or playing the games).
If you want to increase your pile of text with more pointless wasting of your time, you're welcome. I'm sure people searching for quotes without any form of context given (and knowledge gained) will be very grateful for not having to trouble themselves with the source-material, because a trained monkey has already done the job for them - without receiving anything for it.
Very "heroic" indeed...