Me and my son arguing Xmen vs. Naruto

Originally posted by cdtm
And what basis is there to declare Chakra specifc, but DBZ or Fist of the North Star chi universal?

It's all variant's on Chi energy, which Marvel has in abundance.

Anyways, the points rather moot, as the rules address this issue by assuming a shared universe where all mechanics apply, using Flash as an example. It's why Jesses Custers "word of god" power can be used, or the Anti Life Equation, or the Worlogog, which are all certainly universe specific.

I dont know much about DBZ or fist if the north star but Chakra is unique in the sense that it came from the Shinju which is a universe specific being....and prior to Kaguya stealing the fruit humans even in naruto didnt have Chakra. If there were certain points in time where even humans in the narutoverse didnt have Chakra do to it being an energy source coming from a specific tree within that universe. .....there is no basis for then claiming it is a generalizable energy that applies to marvel characters as well.

Your appeal to the rules is innaplicable since...no one said that narutothat the naruto characters won't have use of their powers. They will, they simply wont be able to manipulate a form of energy in another being that doesnt exist within that being. If there is a mutant with the ability to manipulate mutant powers.....his powers will still work in theory if he comes up against superman. ....it just wont matter since superman doesnt have any mutant powers to manipulate. You cant simply project an entirely distinct form of energy onto certain characters that they dont have....just to give the naruto characters something to manipulate.... Your Worlogog and other examples are thus not analogous at all

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Well the rules clearly state any powers work at their optimal point within their native universe. Since Chakra is in everything but machines and stones in naruto universe it would work here. That's the whole point of the rule for things like the ALE and stuff to still work fine despite not working in other universe, or how current IG's don't work outside of their universe but they would here

Wrong application of the rules and inaccurate analogies as ive already explained...

Originally posted by Existere
They would need to be fast enough to cross half a kilometre before Magneto can raise a shield, Exodus can use TK, Sinister or Selene use telepathy, etc.

I think Magneto has the best speed feats of the bunch - responding to blitzes from Quicksilver, raising a shield to block Dazzler's blast as/after she fires it - and probably reacts first.

If the Marvel team even stare at their opponents the match is over. A shield will not help against the eyes. The Naruto team is haxxed.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Wrong application of the rules and inaccurate analogies as ive already explained...

It's clearly what the rules are for, we've had similar issues cleared before regarding what they mean. I'd get a mod ruling, but sadly that would get this thread moved and none of the comic guys ever wanted to post in the all versus forum so it never took off.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Lulz do you need me to list all the abilities the power cosmic has manifested...id welcome a contest between the rinnegan and power cosmic in terms of versatility. ...because its not even close.

No whats stupid is yiur inability to see the clear distinction I have already explained which make your speedforce analogy incorrect.

Why do hate Ninja's bro?

The PC has this in scale but in versatility its damn close.

Shown abilities if the Rinnegan off the top of my head:

All elemental abilities.
All elemental fusion abilities
the ability to absorb energy
The ability to absorb life
Mass scale TK
the ability to raise the dead
the ability to soul rip
the ability to see spirits
Astral projection
Class 100+ strength & durability
the ability to see & distinguish life force
the ability to summon the Shinju/10 tails
Reality warping
Hive mind linking

Among others.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
It's clearly what the rules are for, we've had similar issues cleared before regarding what they mean. I'd get a mod ruling, but sadly that would get this thread moved and none of the comic guys ever wanted to post in the all versus forum so it never took off.

No it isnt. The rules are there to ensure that in cross universe battles characters still get to have functional use of their powers even if their power source doesnt exist across universes. Hence id Silver Surfers power source is the power cosmic...and he is fighting a DC character. ...he will still be able to use his power cosmic even though the poeer cosmic doesnt exist in DC. On the other hand, it dies not mean that if Silver Surfer has an application of the power cosmic im which he can say manipulate the power cosmic in others....that he will then be able to do so to a character like Superman for instance who lacks the poeer cosmic in the first place....Thats the equivalent of what you guys are claiming.

If Genjutsu was simply a power that put the opponent in an illusion using your own Chakra then it would be perfectly fine. However we know that the mechanics of Genjutsu involve manipulating the oponents chakra nervous system to obtain the desired effect. That simply cannot fly agaunst characters who do nit have Chakra nervius systems to begin with. ..

Originally posted by Naija boy
No it isnt. The rules are there to ensure that in cross universe battles characters still get to have functional use of their powers even if their power source doesnt exist across universes. Hence id Silver Surfers power source is the power cosmic...and he is fighting a DC character. ...he will still be able to use his power cosmic even though the poeer cosmic doesnt exist in DC. On the other hand, it dies not mean that if Silver Surfer has an application of the power cosmic im which he can say manipulate the power cosmic in others....that he will then be able to do so to a character like Superman for instance who lacks the poeer cosmic in the first place....Thats the equivalent of what you guys are claiming.

If Genjutsu was simply a power that put the opponent in an illusion using your own Chakra then it would be perfectly fine. However we know that the mechanics of Genjutsu involve manipulating the oponents chakra nervous system to obtain the desired effect. That simply cannot fly agaunst characters who do nit have Chakra nervius systems to begin with. ..

If everyone in marvel had the power cosmic, I'd argue that it would work.

Once you are talking manipulating something is universal in the setting, regardless of the origin. It should work for versus matches. The superman x-gene also doesn't work because people with active x-genes are a minority in marvel. If every single person had it and could be killed with it, then yes I'd say it counts.

Just as if a character has a death power due to some universe specific aspect in all life, I'd say we'd have to count it or why even use the character. That is the key difference here. It isn't a power that only effects certain people, it works on everyone in their universe on some level.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
The Salt

Why do hate Ninja's bro?

The PC has this in scale but in versatility its damn close.

Shown abilities if the Rinnegan off the top of my head:

All elemental abilities.
All elemental fusion abilities
the ability to absorb energy
The ability to absorb life
Mass scale TK
the ability to raise the dead
the ability to soul rip
the ability to see spirits
Astral projection
Class 100+ strength & durability
the ability to see & distinguish life force
the ability to summon the Shinju/10 tails
Reality warping
Hive mind linking

Among others.

Lol I quite like naruto. And barring reality warping which is a catchall term and which I dont remember seeing any Rinnegan user pull off, that paltry list doesnt even come close to the PC. Im not saying its not versatile but in all seriousness the PC is a whole nither animal

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
If everyone in marvel had the power cosmic, I'd argue that it would work.

Once you are talking manipulating something is universal in the setting, regardless of the origin. It should work for versus matches. The superman x-gene also doesn't work because people with active x-genes are a minority in marvel. If every single person had it and could be killed with it, then yes I'd say it counts.

Just as if a character has a death power due to some universe specific aspect in all life, I'd say we'd have to count it or why even use the character. That is the key difference here. It isn't a power that only effects certain people, it works on everyone in their universe on some level.

But therein lies the problem we know where Chakra came from, the SShinju tree.Prior to kaguya stealing the fruit that even the humans in naruto didnt have Chakra. Hence it is still a universe specific energy that even in universe though wideranging is not transcendent. Just like the PC which is a fundsmental force of thr MU cant somehow be projected onto characters that dont possess it.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
If everyone in marvel had the power cosmic, I'd argue that it would work.

Once you are talking manipulating something is universal in the setting, regardless of the origin. It should work for versus matches. The superman x-gene also doesn't work because people with active x-genes are a minority in marvel. If every single person had it and could be killed with it, then yes I'd say it counts.

Just as if a character has a death power due to some universe specific aspect in all life, I'd say we'd have to count it or why even use the character. That is the key difference here. It isn't a power that only effects certain people, it works on everyone in their universe on some level.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Lol I quite like naruto. And barring reality warping which is a catchall term and which I dont remember seeing any Rinnegan user pull off, that paltry list doesnt even come close to the PC. Im not saying its not versatile but in all seriousness the PC is a whole nither animal

Tbf i kept the list vague for brevitys sake some of the fusion natures are like control of magnetism & other fundamental forces on a multi city plus level.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
its not even just people, animals and even plants have Chakra in the narutoverse. Nagato used very solid RW when he reset the village and the Rabbit goddess is using it hardcore in her fight with sasuke & naruto

Tbf i kept the list vague for brevitys sake some of the fusion natures are like control of magnetism & other fundamental forces on a multi city plus level.

Chakra was belonged to the Shinju, was stolen by Kaguya and sprewd to people by Hagoromo per recent revelations in the manga. There is no way that can then apply to marvel characters who had nine of these interactions

Rabbit goddess doesnt have the rinnegan as far as we can see and id argue Nagato used TK and brought people back to life not reality warping as per say. At least not in the vein typically see n in marvel and DC ala mxypytzlk or mad jim jaspers.

The thing is with the rinnegan you can simply list a bunch of jutsus which counts as "versatility" I guess but the PC is capable of anything the rinnegan is capable of and has numerous applications which the rinnegan doesn't in terms of energy manipulation, molecular manipulation and otherwise.

She has it on her forehead.

Nagato can and has manipulated multiple kinds of energy on a molecular level, he also has grown arms and created weaponry out of thin air like his laser cannon.

Why are people acting like genjutsu isn't simply illusions ergo low level telepathy in Marvel terms. If you have telepathic defenses and/or willpower, you overcome illusions and thus genjutsu.

Tsukuyomi wouldn't work on anyone here. And Naruto ninja aren't close to fast enough to blitz (all slower than Quicksilver). Amaterasu has literally failed to burn anything in a timely manner besides a Frog's stomach and Sasuke. The forest, Karin, the samurai, and even Raikage's arm were burning for a long time with no damage.

Nothing the Naruto side can do to win. And Magneto's shields do in fact block teleporting btw.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Tsukuyomi nor Kamui require eye contact. Both Kakashi and Itachi have reacted to real lightningbolts.

I haven't read Naruto for awhile.

Kakashi was never shown but it has been stated multiple times.

Itachi blocked Sasuke's Kirin in mid blast.

For me it is simple:

Or Genjutsu = Telepathy

Or genjutsu = manipulate energy

Cant see they manipulating Apocalypse/Magneto energy or overcoming Apocalypse in TP.

But i cant accept genjutsu = a power from narutoverse with no counter. This is No limits fallacy.

And Itachi has a sharingan. He can predict attacks. Was very clear what Sasuke was going to do in Kirin (he even SAID he was going to attack) it is not reacting to a bolt. Spiderman alredy dodge lighting bolts with spider sense too.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
how is Magneto's shield blocking a teleport into it?

He alredy blocked a teleport to his shield on panel.

The OP should say here if it is classic Magneto or depowered Magneto...

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
For me it is simple:

Or Genjutsu = Telepathy

Or genjutsu = manipulate energy

Cant see they manipulating Apocalypse/Magneto energy or overcoming Apocalypse in TP.

But i cant accept genjutsu = a power from narutoverse with no counter. This is No limits fallacy.

And Itachi has a sharingan. He can predict attacks. Was very clear what Sasuke was going to do in Kirin (he even SAID he was going to attack) it is not reacting to a bolt. Spiderman alredy dodge lighting bolts with spider sense too.

Itachi didnt react until after the attack was launched, so even if he knew what was coming which honestly didnt seem to be the case, Itachi still reacted to it AFTER the lightning bolt was launched.

Magneto blocked a bamf? Not to say i dont believe you id just like to see the reason they gave to him being able to.

Id assume current Magneto but idk

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Kakashi was never shown but it has been stated multiple times.

Itachi blocked Sasuke's Kirin in mid blast.

Didn't he block it with Susano?

It's been awhile.

So what everyone in the ninja world is lying to hype up Kakashi? Idk i can agree to disagree.

Yes.