Darth Sidious vs Sith Strike Team

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Two of these three (I'll be generous enough to exclude Sidious throttling Dooku from halfway across the galaxy) were "ragdolled" and survived only because Sidious let them go. Why should I assume that he can't just clench his fist and crush their spines?

Because... he's never done something like that to powerful force users? If he could do that at all, it'd take significant effort, the bros are tough.

And because there's a third person present. He holds two of them and starts crushing, Dooku lightnings him in the face when he has no arms to defend himself. He either has to let them go or die.

A third person is not just additive, it's a multiplier since the one person has to split their concentration more and they cannot rely on things that'd lock down one or two opponents.

And in a group fight, "First, the character uses some techniques that take some time to take out some of the foes. Then..." doesn't fly. What's Dooku supposed to be doing while Sidious is crushing?

I don't know why this is so difficult for you to fathom. If it helps, pretend Krayt is here instead of Sidious and has the same feats to his name. 👆

These three would beat Krayt too.

These three would stomp Krayt

Seriously, I don't think any Sith could beat these three sith short of perhaps if they were able to turn one against the others quickly.

Palpatine could prolly win here, but I'd argue that he couldn't for a majority.

Originally posted by Q99
Because... he's never done something like that to powerful force users? If he could do that at all, it'd take significant effort, the bros are tough.

To recap: Sidious pins the brothers without visible effort whilst they visibly struggle to free themselves. They are released not through any discernible efforts of their own but because Sidious willfully frees them.

And your conclusion Sidious would have been unable to kill them outright because shut up that's why?

Originally posted by Q99
And because there's a third person present. He holds two of them and starts crushing, Dooku lightnings him in the face when he has no arms to defend himself. He either has to let them go or die.

You're scripting the fight. I could just as easily say Sidious b1tchslaps Dooku away the moment the starting pistol goes off and then he crushes the brothers. As Dooku rises to his feet, blade ignited, he realizes notices the vaguely-humanoid heaps of horned flesh on the ground and promptly shits himself when he realizes it's just him and his boss. Cue the Count's magnificent massacre to the tune of the Imperial March.

Originally posted by Q99
A third person is not just additive, it's a multiplier since the one person has to split their concentration more and they cannot rely on things that'd lock down one or two opponents.

And in a group fight, "First, the character uses some techniques that take some time to take out some of the foes. Then..." doesn't fly. What's Dooku supposed to be doing while Sidious is crushing?

This, again, assumes Sidious can't temporarily put Dooku out of the fight. Given that he TK'd the Count across the galaxy with no visible effort... I'd hardly conclude that this is out of the question.

Yeah, the force gap between Sidious and them individually is huge (even to the extent that he can easily manipulate the bros with it simultaneously), and if Sidious is actually taking the fight seriously, Savage is a non-factor even in sabers.

I don't see a way for the team to win, TBH.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
To recap: Sidious pins the brothers without visible effort whilst they visibly struggle to free themselves. They are released not through any discernible efforts of their own but because Sidious willfully frees them.

This, again, assumes Sidious can't temporarily put Dooku out of the fight. Given that he TK'd the Count across the galaxy with no visible effort... I'd hardly conclude that this is out of the question.

Again can you prove that Dooku tried to break free? If he did, that would mean defying Sidious, which as apprentice he did not dare to do.

Regardless, I want to present some new evidence:
" What happened next, Luke only felt: the invisible hand of the Force clamping down on his throat. His vision narrowed instantly. The blood to his brain had been choked off. Five seconds, he thought. Five seconds until he lost consciousness.
Maybe less.
He reached out in the Force, trying to find the Qreph who was attacking him—trying to find either Qreph—but he was too dizzy already. His hearing started to fade, his vision narrowed to nothing.
Three seconds. Maybe.

Luke launched himself into a Force leap, whirling his blade through a Jedi attack pattern, whipping his feet back and forth in blind snap kicks and targetless heel strikes. His hearing faded to silence, and he felt himself starting to drop … then the ground came up beneath his feet and his knees buckled.
Desperate to locate his attacker, Luke reached out in all directions and pulled, grabbing at every being he could sense. He felt a jolt of surprise from Leia and let her loose. He found the Qrephs just ahead,
standing well apart, two beings full of fear and anger and hatred. He pulled harder and felt them slide toward him, their fear blazing into panic and their anger deepening to rage.
The Force grasp slipped free, and the blood came roaring back into Luke’s head. His hearing returned first, and he heard Leia a few meters to his right, her lightsaber growling and hissing as she blocked a fork of Force lightning."

I've always argued that characters can be caught off guard during a fight.

This is FotJ Luke - his strongest incarnation. Yet, you can see that he can't simply break a Force choke by pushing out with the Force or some sort. And those opponent are not stronger than him. It is evident by the fact that Leia fights along him and does not get choked herself or electrocuted.

1. It proves that when Force user gets caught off-guard with Force attack, it is really hard to break from it even, if you are the most powerful Force user known.
It explains why Maul and Opress couldn't break Sidious' grip. First his attack was unexpected giving them no chance to block it. Then they hit hard against the wall and pressured so hard that durable glass nearly breaks. Simply put they were in no position to muster any possible defense in that situation and I admit that at that point he could break their spine, if he wanted or do anything he likes. But arrogance led him to gamble with his life.

2. It proves that the only way to break Force choke is by directly attacking with Force in return. As example that's how Galen Marek broke Vader's grip.
Dooku would not dare to attack Sidious with Force, he was trying to convince instead. I might as well mention Caedus, when he got caught off guard. He was in exactly same situation as Dooku, he could break out but that would mean Force attacking Luke. We even have TCW cutout scene due to time limit, where Maul pins Sidious against the wall. And guess what, Sidious was unable to break free directly, he threw a lamp at Maul instead. But of course you will conveniently ignore it, despite the fact that authors considered something like that as a possibility.

There is a reason why Force users mostly engage with lightsaber duels. That's not because they are retarded to choose not to overpower with Force, when they can. Yoda is not retarded, when he decided to engage Dooku in a duel twice, he simply would not be able to subdue Dooku with Force. That's because they need to catch opponent off-guard, otherwise it will be blocked. Like in example, where Kenobi blocked Anakin's attack. Or where Anakin and Kenobi blocked Dooku's Force wave.
That's why Sidious Force blasted Maul and Opress only at beginning, when they least expected. And another Force blast, when Maul sprang for attack with lightsaber high up. It's all about using Force attacks at the right moment.

You're getting pretty creative with the burden of proof, but not enough to redeem your argument.

Arhael
Whenever he did have his face showing physical effort? When he fought Yoda, he either grinned or laughed. In final lightning contest he had the same excited grin with ohshit face at the last moment but now expression of trying to fart or something, which seems what you expect to see on his face as a proof.

Yup, there were plenty of times during his duel with Yoda that Sidious evinced strain or fear, indicating that Yoda was a significant challenge. Not so much from the Zabraks, who are less challenge and more in the order of absolute fodder.

Arhael
Do you have proof that TK across screen requires more effort? Logically I would agree that it requires more effort, if not outright impossible. That's rather another Lucas' stupidity.

As you concede, it's reasonable to conclude that distance plays a role in the strength and effectiveness of Force powers. Else Jedi or Sith would be smiting one another across interstellar distances without ever having to confront one another face-to-face.

Arhael
Again can you prove that Dooku tried to break free? If he did, that would mean defying Sidious, which as apprentice he did not dare to do.

Dooku was already plotting behind Sidious's back with both Ventress and Opress. Your insinuations that the Count is a fetishist with a bent for asphyxiation notwithstanding, I'd say it would be pretty damn hard for anyone (let alone a Sith Lord for whom survival is priority one) to not reflexively try to defend one's self.

But even being generous and granting you the assumption that Dooku didn't defend himself, we're back to square one: why wouldn't he try to defend himself from a man he wants to murder anyway?

The answer is obvious: because Sidious is that much more powerful than he is and Dooku knew it wouldn't end well for him. Either way, we're back to the inescapable fact that Sidious is well beyond the Count and there's nothing you can do to mitigate that truth. 😬

Arhael
Regardless, I want to present some new evidence:
" What happened next, Luke only felt: the invisible hand of the Force clamping down on his throat. His vision narrowed instantly. The blood to his brain had been choked off. Five seconds, he thought. Five seconds until he lost consciousness.
Maybe less.
He reached out in the Force, trying to find the Qreph who was attacking him—trying to find either Qreph—but he was too dizzy already. His hearing started to fade, his vision narrowed to nothing.
Three seconds. Maybe.

Luke launched himself into a Force leap, whirling his blade through a Jedi attack pattern, whipping his feet back and forth in blind snap kicks and targetless heel strikes. His hearing faded to silence, and he felt himself starting to drop … then the ground came up beneath his feet and his knees buckled.
Desperate to locate his attacker, Luke reached out in all directions and pulled, grabbing at every being he could sense. He felt a jolt of surprise from Leia and let her loose. He found the Qrephs just ahead,
standing well apart, two beings full of fear and anger and hatred. He pulled harder and felt them slide toward him, their fear blazing into panic and their anger deepening to rage.
The Force grasp slipped free, and the blood came roaring back into Luke’s head. His hearing returned first, and he heard Leia a few meters to his right, her lightsaber growling and hissing as she blocked a fork of Force lightning."

Your contextless excerpt notwithstanding, there are some critical differences between Luke being throttled by the Qrephs and Sidious throttling the Zabraks. First: We know from the passage that Luke was indeed caught off guard; there's no proof that the Zabraks were. Second: Luke had no idea where the Qrephs were and much of his desperate flailing had to do with locating the unseen threat in order to combat it whereas Sidious was standing in their line of sight, visible and known, and the Zabraks were still helpless.

Arhael
1. It proves that when Force user gets caught off-guard with Force attack, it is really hard to break from it even, if you are the most powerful Force user known.
It explains why Maul and Opress couldn't break Sidious' grip. First his attack was unexpected giving them no chance to block it. Then they hit hard against the wall and pressured so hard that durable glass nearly breaks. Simply put they were in no position to muster any possible defense in that situation and I admit that at that point he could break their spine, if he wanted or do anything he likes. But arrogance led him to gamble with his life.

I accept your concession about their spines. But you have no proof that the attack was unexpected. You have no proof that these two particularly durable Force users were damaged or incapacitated by their impact against the glass, particularly when we see them recover quite nicely. You're simply and clumsily cobbling together a series of assumptions in an attempt to undermine Sidious's victory as circumstantial in defiance of authorial commentary that explains Sidious's victory was the result of vastly superior power, skill and expertise. He's better than the brothers, Arhael, together and separate. And by a lot. Filoni has said so exhaustively. Any insinuations to the contrary will be disregarded without comment. It's been a year; if you can't process black-and-white now, you never will.

Arhael
2. It proves that the only way to break Force choke is by directly attacking with Force in return. As example that's how Galen Marek broke Vader's grip.
Dooku would not dare to attack Sidious with Force, he was trying to convince instead. I might as well mention Caedus, when he got caught off guard. He was in exactly same situation as Dooku, he could break out but that would mean Force attacking Luke. We even have TCW cutout scene due to time limit, where Maul pins Sidious against the wall. And guess what, Sidious was unable to break free directly, he threw a lamp at Maul instead. But of course you will conveniently ignore it, despite the fact that authors considered something like that as a possibility.

And I might be compelled to believe you, if the brothers were indeed known to have been caught off guard. Regardless, your argument topples: if Dooku didn't try to resist Sidious, it was because he knew it wouldn't do him any good because of Sidious's vastly superior power. And as to why "I conveniently ignore" cut content? Because it defies Filoni's commentary and, oh, it's cut content.

Sidious is better than these guys, Arhael, and in the words of the Dark Lord himself:

Sidious, easily.

Also, Windu was close to Yoda's level with a blade, In fact he's considered Yoda's only equal.

Yoda isn't one for demolishing his opponents through the force because that wouldn't leave them alive, so I'd argue that team could take him.

But yeh, Sidious here, we already saw how easily he could destroy Maul and Savage, if he didn't want practice he would have just choked them to death in 3 seconds, considering how easy he held them against a wall.

Let's not forget how truly terrified of Sidious Dooku and Maul were, they were that scared for a reason.

Even in ROTS he was touted as the greatest wielder of the Dark Side, he was undeniably more powerful than them, by a large degree.

And strength in numbers won't matter.

Just ask Agen Kolar, Saessee Tin and Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Selenial
Let's not forget how truly terrified of Sidious Dooku and Maul were, they were that scared for a reason.

Even in ROTS he was touted as the greatest wielder of the Dark Side, he was undeniably more powerful than them, by a large degree.

And strength in numbers won't matter.

Just ask Agen Kolar, Saessee Tin and Kit Fisto.

👆

Yes, ROTS Sidious would get the job done and DE Sidious would simply destroy them.

Hmm, that gives me an idea.

DE Sidious vs Vitiate, Krayt and Kun...

Theres a rule against spite threads.

👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres a rule against spite threads.

No.

Admit Vitiate's limitations, restrictions, failure, weakness, and inferiority.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres a rule against spite threads.

I don't even know what that is 🙁 🙁 🙁

But tbh, that'd be interesting to see. Vitiate isn't exactly one for combat, Sidious would just take Kun out of the picture immediately, so it'd be an interesting 2v1

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Admit Vitiate's limitations, restrictions, failure, weakness, and inferiority.

I suppose it's a good thing that he has two of the greatest sith lords in history at his side. 😬

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Admit Vitiate's limitations, restrictions, failure, weakness, and inferiority.

Either this is serious.

Or you put Vitiate on the level of DE Sidious.

Pick >.>

ROTS Sidious = Most powerful Dark Side Wielder in history. Fact.
DE Sidious = Infinitely more powerful.