Originally posted by LeonBuco666
Yeah....because every character who has superspeed or at least shown they possess it, ALWAYS apply & use it in fights.
Are you saying that King Hyperion was not using super speed in his battle with Adam? How can you be certain? Is it because there were no blur effects to indicate it? Again where were these blurring effects when DOS Doomsday was fighting the JL? Yet they stated that he had Flash like speed. You see my point?
Originally posted by Stoic
Why are you so intent on gimping Adam? The Sentry, and King Hyperion both have grade A super speed. Adam defeated them, and unless you want to call the feat PIS, he was able to go blow for blow with them, this alone is evidence. You can't give Doomsday grade A super speed just from character statements, but you can give him this if he shows that he can go blow for blow with someone that does. The same applies for Adam. And there was an official statement on him as well. I mean who are you to say that he does not, when he fought these guys and won? The only thing that they said was that they were unsure if he could attain the speed of light, which is fast as hell alone. Doomsday would have gotten to Metropolis in an instant if he was near light speed, or had Flash like speed. What you want to do is give the okay for one, but scrutinize the other, and cover this up with where is the proof. I ask you the same question, where is the proof that Doomsday had Flash level speed when it took him that long to get to Metropolis? Oh I guess we should ignore that, and stick only to character statements, which isn't the end all be all. Sentry was seen moving at super speed several times, as was several versions if Hyperion, So now you want me to buy the idea that they were trying to win, only to reduce their grade A speed down to grade B-D or even F for fail speed? Again, why are you trying so hard to gimp Adam?
You can't use a characters low showings as their maximum level. DD at max can move at Flashlike speeds. This doesn't mean he can move at Flash's maximum speeds but rather his average speeds (which are under the speed of light). DD reaching Metropolis traveling many times the speed of sound is irrelevant to him blitzing the entire JL without anyone able to see him (even Superman). Character's statements mean everything when those characters has grade A superspeed and are supporting the writer's intention. Unless you want to circumvent the writer's intention, the writer has the power of his creation.
These characters don't exist and never have. There is no such thing is that Sentry or Hyperion could have been fighting BM with superspeed. If there is no evidence to support something then it doesn't exist (since it really doesn't exist). There should be some evidence (ANY) to support a claim.
You act as if Character's powers, like speed, are never ignored in comics.
The evidence for DD moving like Flash is character's statements and his feat of hitting 5 or more people that were spread out SIMULTANEOUSLY. How do you hit 5 people from hundreds of feet away, including Superman, at the same time and faster than they can see you without it being Flashlike speed? How do you move faster than Guy Gardener can see you and not have flashlike speeds?
Originally posted by Stoic
Let me ask you a question real quick. What proof is there that DOS Doomsday had super speed? Is it because he fought Superman, and kept up with him punch for punch? Didn't I say that Adam kept up with Hyperion who like Superman also possesses super speed? If so why is it okay for one, but not the other?
DOS Doomsday having super speed is a combination of him attacking the JLA team and numerous statements. It was simply too pounded by the writer that he was moving faster than humanly possible. Superman even said something along the lines of having to step-up his speed to keep-up with Doomsday.
But to tell you something I think most people never knew or don't even realize when they bring-up Booster Gold's statement about being fast as Flash, is at the time Wally was limited in his speed. He had psychological blocks due to Barry's death that made him much slower than he was before CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. He did have feats of high-end supersonic, but most of the time he was on the lower-end supersonic or even sub-sonic. Even if we take Booster Gold's statement literally and not as hyperbole, all that means is he was comparing Doomsday's speed to a Flash who was far slower than people are used to.
Personally, I place Doomsday at mach 1 or slower. I don't think he's as fast as H1 seems to think.
But if we argue the way you are, then that means that every single one of Superman's enemies have super speed. Marvel fanboys are always citing characters that don't have super speed as either evidence Superman isn't that fast or at least he doesn't always use his speed, but so many times I've seen them argue Thor or Thanos or whoever fighting Silver Surfer(whose combat/operational speed feats are nothing compared to Superman's), automatically assume Surfer is fighting really fast and use that as proof of some great combat speed. I don't know if you're one of those, but you are using a similar logic here.
Originally posted by Delta1938I have undeniable proof that DOS was far faster than Mach 1.
DOS Doomsday having super speed is a combination of him attacking the JLA team and numerous statements. It was simply too pounded by the writer that he was moving faster than humanly possible. Superman even said something along the lines of having to step-up his speed to keep-up with Doomsday.But to tell you something I think most people never knew or don't even realize when they bring-up Booster Gold's statement about being fast as Flash, is at the time Wally was limited in his speed. He had psychological blocks due to Barry's death that made him much slower than he was before CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. He did have feats of high-end supersonic, but most of the time he was on the lower-end supersonic or even sub-sonic. Even if we take Booster Gold's statement literally and not as hyperbole, all that means is he was comparing Doomsday's speed to a Flash who was far slower than people are used to.
Personally, I place Doomsday at mach 1 or slower. I don't think he's as fast as H1 seems to think.
But if we argue the way you are, then that means that every single one of Superman's enemies have super speed. Marvel fanboys are always citing characters that don't have super speed as either evidence Superman isn't that fast or at least he doesn't always use his speed, but so many times I've seen them argue Thor or Thanos or whoever fighting Silver Surfer(whose combat/operational speed feats are nothing compared to Superman's), automatically assume Surfer is fighting really fast and use that as proof of some great combat speed. I don't know if you're one of those, but you are using a similar logic here.
1. Jumping 50 miles at a time requires at minimum the initial velocity more than Mach2.5 (without wind resistance) and vastly more with wind resistance. Running speed is highly correlated with jumping distance since running is really jumping.
2. Superman can see rifle bullets in slow motion. He never complained of their speed. DD moved so fast that Superman couldn't respond and complained of him being too fast. This is far faster than a rifle bullet and hence Mach 1.
Originally posted by h1a8
I have undeniable proof that DOS was far faster than Mach 1.1. Jumping 50 miles at a time requires at minimum the initial velocity more than Mach2.5 (without wind resistance) and vastly more with wind resistance. Running speed is highly correlated with jumping distance since running is really jumping.
2. Superman can see rifle bullets in slow motion. He never complained of their speed. DD moved so fast that Superman couldn't respond and complained of him being too fast. This is far faster than a rifle bullet and hence Mach 1.
I'm pretty sure he didn't jump 50 miles to metropolis in a single bound either. He did crush a sign that said "50 Miles to metropolis" on his way, but I don't remember him landing in metropolis in the next panel or anything like that. And Supes specifically thought something like "50 miles might as well be 50 paces to this monster" so I don't think he made it in that leap.
Do the math to calculate the Hulk's level of "combat speed" by his best jumping feats. Can you do that? Or does this only apply to Doomsday? Think about this before you write yourself onto Hypocrite lane.
Also did you know that time had to be slowed down for the FF to see Gladiator? He fought Hyperion, now just because we did not see a blurring effect does not mean that they were not moving at super speed. the same applies to King Hyperion vs Blue Marvel when they fought. Once again, I am trying to understand why you are trying so hard to make it seem like the Blue Marvel does not possess Grade A speed. Is it that you simply want to gimp him?
Also, characters fighting against other characters isn't a sign of super speed unless you have proof that the character with super speed is actually moving at super speed during their fight. Example, Spiderman has fought Firelord and Surfer and I would not say Spiderman was moving at light speed. The list goes on and on and on. Fights isn't an indication of super speed. I can easily post a scan of Nightwing wrapping a blitzing Flash up in rope in the blink of an eye. Does that mean Nightwing is as fast as Flash?
Originally posted by carver9
Also, characters fighting against other characters isn't a sign of super speed unless you have proof that the character with super speed is actually moving at super speed during their fight. Example, Spiderman has fought Firelord and Surfer and I would not say Spiderman was moving at light speed. The list goes on and on and on. Fights isn't an indication of super speed. I can easily post a scan of Nightwing wrapping a blitzing Flash up in rope in the blink of an eye. Does that mean Nightwing is as fast as Flash?
This is like saying that a guy that has super strength does not use this strength in a fight when he is clearly trying to win. How can you prove that these super strong beings are using their strength? I mean were they playing footsies when King Hyperion fought Blue Marvel? Does it always have to be stated on panel that characters are moving at super speed for it to be known that they are? There has to be a happy medium. Recently I was corrected in a thread about how character statements can be exaggerated. This was when I argued that the Hulk beat up the Wendigo, and Bi-Beast that were stated to have been 1000X greater than their base levels on panel.
h1a8 keeps stating that characters don't always operate at their peak, but then goes on to state that Doomsday was moving at Flash level speed. This is a direct contradiction that flies in the face of what he is trying to sell. I'm almost done with this circular debate, because I need to wait and see Adam operating at super speed, so that we can revisit this thread.
Originally posted by h1a8
I have undeniable proof that DOS was far faster than Mach 1.1. Jumping 50 miles at a time requires at minimum the initial velocity more than Mach2.5 (without wind resistance) and vastly more with wind resistance. Running speed is highly correlated with jumping distance since running is really jumping.
2. Superman can see rifle bullets in slow motion. He never complained of their speed. DD moved so fast that Superman couldn't respond and complained of him being too fast. This is far faster than a rifle bullet and hence Mach 1.
I don't really care about all your arguments that don't take into account of things in comics due to either they're over your head or you never read them in the first place.
Originally posted by Stoic
This is like saying that a guy that has super strength does not use this strength in a fight when he is clearly trying to win. How can you prove that these super strong beings are using their strength? I mean were they playing footsies when King Hyperion fought Blue Marvel? Does it always have to be stated on panel that characters are moving at super speed for it to be known that they are? There has to be a happy medium. Recently I was corrected in a thread about how character statements can be exaggerated. This was when I argued that the Hulk beat up the Wendigo, and Bi-Beast that were stated to have been 1000X greater than their base levels on panel.
That's not how comics work. Do you think everybody Superman has ever fought in almost all incarnations of every continuity has super speed?
Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't really care about all your arguments that don't take into account of things in comics due to either they're over your head or you never read them in the first place.That's not how comics work. Do you think everybody Superman has ever fought in almost all incarnations of every continuity has super speed?
Do you believe that Adam has super strength? It says that he has incalculable super strength in his bio, it also says that he has super speed, and recounts all of the rest of his powers. Should we agree with everything that they wrote about him, but deny that he has super speed? The only thing that they said was unknown in terms of his speed, was that they were unsure if he could attain light speed. Again I did not see Doomsday fighting Superman while trailed by the blurring special effects while fighting Superman. It doesn't have to be said that characters are using super speed for them to be using it. That would mean that every time that the Flash was in a fight, and using his only power (Speed) that if he did not state it on panel, there is no proof that he is actually using speed.
We know that Blue Marvel is strong, but how are we sure if he was using his strength in his battle with King Hyperion. I mean he didn't come out chest puffed up, and state, "Now villain, I will show you my super strength, so take that". Do characters have to announce that they are using their powers to actually be using them? I knew that this was going to become a circular debate when we got on the super speed issue, just as I know that Adam possesses super speed, but this is really going nowhere fast.
And yes h1a8 seems to live in his own world when it comes to these things. I mean how in the world do you make up numbers and firmly place them in an unrealistic environment, unless these numbers are given to you by the writers? It just blows my mind everytime I read that mess.
Originally posted by Stoic
Do you believe that Adam has super strength? It says that he has incalculable super strength in his bio, it also says that he has super speed, and recounts all of the rest of his powers. Should we agree with everything that they wrote about him, but deny that he has super speed? The only thing that they said was unknown in terms of his speed, was that they were unsure if he could attain light speed. Again I did not see Doomsday fighting Superman while trailed by the blurring special effects while fighting Superman. It doesn't have to be said that characters are using super speed for them to be using it. That would mean that every time that the Flash was in a fight, and using his only power (Speed) that if he did not state it on panel, there is no proof that he is actually using speed.We know that Blue Marvel is strong, but how are we sure if he was using his strength in his battle with King Hyperion. I mean he didn't come out chest puffed up, and state, "Now villain, I will show you my super strength, so take that". Do characters have to announce that they are using their powers to actually be using them? I knew that this was going to become a circular debate when we got on the super speed issue, just as I know that Adam possesses super speed, but this is really going nowhere fast.
And yes h1a8 seems to live in his own world when it comes to these things. I mean how in the world do you make up numbers and firmly place them in an unrealistic environment, unless these numbers are given to you by the writers? It just blows my mind everytime I read that mess.
I haven't read the bio, but in my experience, Marvel normally refers to flight speed the way you described, even if bios were accepted evidence under the rules.
And I already replied to you with why I say Doomsday has super speed. I also explained about Flash even if we are to take Booster's statement literally instead of hyperbole. And I don't even put Doomsday nearly as fast as H1 does, so I'm not sure why you're arguing so strongly against me(him sure, but me?).
I believe your argument with Flash would be a red herring. Guys like Flash either ONLY have super speed, or anything they can do outside of just running/moving fast is based on using their speed to achieve effects. That is not the same as bringing-up bricks who have super speed, because it's a thing for bricks with super speed in general. There are other ways to tell if super speed is being used than blur lines, but assuming two characters that aren't speedsters are fighting at super speed simply because one has confirmed combat super speed is an incorrect argument.
And H1 says and thinks many things. We'll leave it at that.
And it is a circular debate. But the problem is you have a preconceived notion that Blue Marvel has combat super speed, you're not finding relevant examples, so you cite the bio and bring-up him fighting other bricks with super speed and assuming that means both were fighting at super speed. It's on you to provide evidence, and neither example really works.
For the record, I never argued Majestic speed blitzes Adam. I simply saw you say "equal speed" and was wondering when that happened. I only read his limited series, but I believe that's the bulk of his appearances, and he didn't do a single thing I remember to even back that he has combat super speed, let alone on Majestic's level.
Originally posted by Delta1938
I haven't read the bio, but in my experience, Marvel normally refers to flight speed the way you described, even if bios were accepted evidence under the rules.And I already replied to you with why I say Doomsday has super speed. I also explained about Flash even if we are to take Booster's statement literally instead of hyperbole. And I don't even put Doomsday nearly as fast as H1 does, so I'm not sure why you're arguing so strongly against me(him sure, but me?).
I believe your argument with Flash would be a red herring. Guys like Flash either ONLY have super speed, or anything they can do outside of just running/moving fast is based on using their speed to achieve effects. That is not the same as bringing-up bricks who have super speed, because it's a thing for bricks with super speed in general. There are other ways to tell if super speed is being used than blur lines, but assuming two characters that aren't speedsters are fighting at super speed simply because one has confirmed combat super speed is an incorrect argument.
And H1 says and thinks many things. We'll leave it at that.
And it is a circular debate. But the problem is you have a preconceived notion that Blue Marvel has combat super speed, you're not finding relevant examples, so you cite the bio and bring-up him fighting other bricks with super speed and assuming that means both were fighting at super speed. It's on you to provide evidence, and neither example really works.
For the record, I never argued Majestic speed blitzes Adam. I simply saw you say "equal speed" and was wondering when that happened. I only read his limited series, but I believe that's the bulk of his appearances, and he didn't do a single thing I remember to even back that he has combat super speed, let alone on Majestic's level.
Fair enough. Let's wait and find out for sure. At least you didn't make a firm claim that Blue Marvel does not possess super speed, and are willing to give it the benefit of doubt either way.
Originally posted by carver9
I don't think he wants to calculate Hulks leaping ability versus speed. Hulk just leaped to another planet recently.
Hulk normally leaps 1-3 mile distances. Anything more than 3 miles is an extreme rare feat. Even so, leaping into space from an Earth sized planet requires an astronomical initial velocity. Humongous.
Originally posted by StoicIt's funny how you attack me when I'm addressing something totally different (that DD is faster than mach 1). DD jumping feat has nothing to do with proving he has flashlike speed. His jumping feat proves he is more than mach 1, nothing more. His feat of blitzing without being seen, hitting 5 characters at the same time, and character's statements, has more to do with proving that.
I'm pretty sure he didn't jump 50 miles to metropolis in a single bound either. He did crush a sign that said "50 Miles to metropolis" on his way, but I don't remember him landing in metropolis in the next panel or anything like that. And Supes specifically thought something like "50 miles might as well be 50 paces to this monster" so I don't think he made it in that leap.Do the math to calculate the Hulk's level of "combat speed" by his best jumping feats. Can you do that? Or does this only apply to Doomsday? Think about this before you write yourself onto Hypocrite lane.
Also did you know that time had to be slowed down for the FF to see Gladiator? He fought Hyperion, now just because we did not see a blurring effect does not mean that they were not moving at super speed. the same applies to King Hyperion vs Blue Marvel when they fought. Once again, I am trying to understand why you are trying so hard to make it seem like the Blue Marvel does not possess Grade A speed. Is it that you simply want to gimp him?
As far as the jumping feat,
You see that DD projection will land him in Metropolis. The art shows DD should land in Metrolopolis. Thus it is the writer's intention that he is jumping 50 mile distances.
Hulk on average leaps about 1-3 miles per jump (with the exception of some extreme rare feats).
Combat speed isn't quite equal to burst speed. Combat speed requires burst speed and reflex speed.
Originally posted by Stoic
This is like saying that a guy that has super strength does not use this strength in a fight when he is clearly trying to win. How can you prove that these super strong beings are using their strength? I mean were they playing footsies when King Hyperion fought Blue Marvel? Does it always have to be stated on panel that characters are moving at super speed for it to be known that they are? There has to be a happy medium. Recently I was corrected in a thread about how character statements can be exaggerated. This was when I argued that the Hulk beat up the Wendigo, and Bi-Beast that were stated to have been 1000X greater than their base levels on panel.h1a8 keeps stating that characters don't always operate at their peak, but then goes on to state that Doomsday was moving at Flash level speed. This is a direct contradiction that flies in the face of what he is trying to sell. I'm almost done with this circular debate, because I need to wait and see Adam operating at super speed, so that we can revisit this thread.
Speed is often ignored. Strength, Durability is not. Strength and Durability is sometimes downplayed but never ignored.
You are not understanding something very important.
If we allow a character to be fast based solely off who they fought then everyone in comics would be faster than light. Batman, Nightwing, Captain Cold, etc.
This is far worst than what we get with the conclusion that speed is ignore in comics at times.
How did I contradict myself? Characters don't always operate at their peak implies that sometimes they do. DD operating at his peak at times follows from the conclusion.
Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk normally leaps 1-3 mile distances. Anything more than 3 miles is an extreme rare feat. Even so, leaping into space from an Earth sized planet requires an astronomical initial velocity. Humongous.It's funny how you attack me when I'm addressing something totally different (that DD is faster than mach 1). DD jumping feat has nothing to do with proving he has flashlike speed. His jumping feat proves he is more than mach 1, nothing more. His feat of blitzing without being seen, hitting 5 characters at the same time, and character's statements, has more to do with proving that.
As far as the jumping feat,
You see that DD projection will land him in Metropolis. The art shows DD should land in Metrolopolis. Thus it is the writer's intention that he is jumping 50 mile distances.Hulk on average leaps about 1-3 miles per jump (with the exception of some extreme rare feats).
Combat speed isn't quite equal to burst speed. Combat speed requires burst speed and reflex speed.
Just stop.
Originally posted by h1a8
Speed is often ignored. Strength, Durability is not. Strength and Durability is sometimes downplayed but never ignored.
You are not understanding something very important.
If we allow a character to be fast based solely off who they fought then everyone in comics would be faster than light. Batman, Nightwing, Captain Cold, etc.
This is far worst than what we get with the conclusion that speed is ignore in comics at times.How did I contradict myself? Characters don't always operate at their peak implies that sometimes they do. DD operating at his peak at times follows from the conclusion.
You got that mostly right.