Re: Re: Re: Re: What showings makes Classic Juggernaut completely Invulnerable??
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Again. The first Juggernaut battle against Spider-Man.This website has a good summary of it:
http://www.chasingamazingblog.com/2013/09/29/reading-experience-beating-an-unstoppable-foe/
👆
^He wasn't? Juggernaut was one shot away from being killed in that story.
As I said in another thread classic Juggernaut is overrated, he has one or two good durability feats while his forcefield is protecting him (fights against Thor and the X-Men) which have been twisted over the years into him being invincible to physical harm, even without it. People forget the owning Thor gave him once his forcefield was gone, the beatdown Merged Hulk gave him, running away from Venom, ko'd by Onslaught, being hurt by Nightcrawler, phucking running away from Beast, screaming when his eye got stabbed out etc etc.
I remember watching that 90's X-Men cartoon and thinking the same thing because he basically no-sold all the X-Mens attacks and was badass while doing it. As soon as he ran into Gladiator he was treated like the 2nd rate villain that he is. Juggernaut is invulnerable, probably more than most top tiers, but he can be hurt/knocked out/killed just like every other top tier too.
Originally posted by carver9iirc in that same issue the writer thought that Juggs invulnerability comes from his helmet. I could be wrong though. Good idea for a thread btw.
Him fighting Hulk doesn't make him completely invulnerable. Especially since Hulk was holding back. Then we have this showing...2 punches.
http://s30.photobucket.com/user/Hulk3389/media/comic%20book%20scans/juggslayout.jpg.html
Re: What showings makes Classic Juggernaut completely Invulnerable??
Originally posted by carver9
There has to be more than one fight/showings that makes people believe Juggernaut is completely invulnerable to physical damage. M
He never was "completely invulnerable" to everything. But you need a power far greater than a High Herald have do physical damage on him.
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
He never was "completely invulnerable" to everything. But you need a power far greater than a High Herald have do physical damage on him.
And this was about two years after Onslaught KTFO Juggy and he was far more powerful than that version. Hell, Reed bulking up his body was smacking him around.
Juggernaut was never completely invulnerable... if he would be, that would mean not even Living Tribunal would be able to harm him 🙂
But I think he should be invulnerable to physical damage by the likes of Hulk, Thanos, Silver Surfer etc...
Originally posted by abhilegend
Not really. Onslaught knocked him the **** out and then got overpowered by Bishop powered by Invisible Woman.
Cain was weakened.
Onslaught was above Herald level anyway.
Onslaught also apparently had a connection to the gem because Xavier was apart of Onslaught.
Cain has kind of had an inconsistent past with regards to somethings.
Nightcrawler throws a torch in Cain's eyes he screams out in pain.
Cain gets a truck driven into him and is set ablaze he walks out laughing.
Cain can take Wolverine's claw attacks like Logan is an insect, but then Shatterstar's sword can cut his eyes.
He can bust out of a large metal cocoon with ease but some wet cement stops him.
It's led me to create Juggernaut cohesion theory that Cain's powers are as mental as they are physical.
The more human and less focused he is the more he reacts to various stimuli as a human.
The more focused he seems to be on a task the less things seem to bother him to point where in his league he seemingly becomes invulernable.
Of course in reality it just comes down to writer intent and desire for the character.
Cain can take Wolverine's claw attacks like Logan is an insect, but then Shatterstar's sword can cut his eyes.
His sword was mistical/magic.
It's led me to create Juggernaut cohesion theory that Cain's powers are as mental as they are physical.[/B]
This make sense.
Before fighting against WWH, Cain calls Cyttorak to increase his powers, and he said "im not limitating your power, you are". He was limited by his mindset.
Another stance where it is clear is Colossnaut vs Red Hulk. With a angry and violent mindset, he got a power boost and the demon armor (without Cyttorak doing anything). When he changed his mindset, he lost strengh and the fight against Red Hulk.
this is a good idea for a thread. it has already served to highlight the fact that there is an overestimation of jugg's 'invulnerability'. i can't believe though that no one has shown this scan:
it was a cool showing for cain, but his invulnerability has NOT been consistently shown. what is the greatest durability feat juggs has WITHOUT the godblast/force field showing?
i'd submit it is the scan above. but hulk as a similar feat (thanos reduced him to a withered husk and hulk healed almost immediately) and logan has healed from things as bad.
in general, i'd don't think jugg's durability is much above the highest heralds at all. the exemplars hurt him with claw attacks, bedlam hurt him badly through his helmet with psi powers, hell he was even getting pressure pointed in that arc. but people are quick to say that is pis. but, in fact, his being hurt by attacks is more the NORM than the exception imo. not being hurt by guys like spidey and venom? pretty meaningless. can you see them hurting someone like ss? hulk has withstood a full on rage-filled spidey blitz without moving let alone being harmed. even logan's inability to hurt him is contradicted by the shatterstar showing (magic only explains so much as the despayre scan shows). juggs can be considered 'unstoppable' (though war hulk showed that has limits as well) once he starts moving, yet NOT be invulnerable. hell marvel even agreed to show wonderwoman taking him down. unstoppability does not equate to invulnerability and i've never understood conflating the 2.
early on in their careers hulk handled juggs just fine, carver showed scans of his doing even better later on. we know nimrod put him down easily with sonics. i hate having him in vs threads because folks insist his durability protects him from everything so it becomes pointless. hopefully this thread will expose that misconception/myth. imo, based on most showings, his durability shouldn't be very far above high herald, if above it at all. his force field should really almost never come into play except in maybe 1-2 matches out of 10.
looking at his entire history, juggs is a powerful brick with high herald strength and RELATIVE invulnerability, but he is most certainly NOT beyond the power of high heralds to to harm or put down. at least not in all case.
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
I read in this forum more than once that the Juggernaut who lose against Onslaught was weakened.
Originally posted by Xplosive
Juggernaut was never completely invulnerable... if he would be, that would mean not even Living Tribunal would be able to harm him 🙂But I think he should be invulnerable to physical damage by the likes of Hulk, Thanos, Silver Surfer etc...
Cain was weakened.
Onslaught was above Herald level anyway.
Originally posted by The Sorrow
As soon as he ran into Gladiator he was treated like the 2nd rate villain that he is
Link for those interested -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYRi7jygVnQ
Also while we're talking about showings outside of the comics, here's Jug getting deflected like a mosquito by a little girl with telekenesis -
http://youtu.be/m5vUQxZB9MQ?t=2m38s
🤣
Originally posted by leonidasSo I will agree there have been inconsistencies between Cain over the years but over all there are generally always better feats for Cain to go against those bad showings.
this is a good idea for a thread. it has already served to highlight the fact that there is an overestimation of jugg's 'invulnerability'. i can't believe though that no one has shown this scan:it was a cool showing for cain, but his invulnerability has NOT been consistently shown. what is the greatest durability feat juggs has WITHOUT the godblast/force field showing?
i'd submit it is the scan above. but hulk as a similar feat (thanos reduced him to a withered husk and hulk healed almost immediately) and logan has healed from things as bad.
in general, i'd don't think jugg's durability is much above the highest heralds at all. the exemplars hurt him with claw attacks, bedlam hurt him badly through his helmet with psi powers, hell he was even getting pressure pointed in that arc. but people are quick to say that is pis. but, in fact, his being hurt by attacks is more the NORM than the exception imo. not being hurt by guys like spidey and venom? pretty meaningless. can you see them hurting someone like ss? hulk has withstood a full on rage-filled spidey blitz without moving let alone being harmed. even logan's inability to hurt him is contradicted by the shatterstar showing (magic only explains so much as the despayre scan shows). juggs can be considered 'unstoppable' (though war hulk showed that has limits as well) once he starts moving, yet NOT be invulnerable. hell marvel even agreed to show wonderwoman taking him down. unstoppability does not equate to invulnerability and i've never understood conflating the 2.
early on in their careers hulk handled juggs just fine, carver showed scans of his doing even better later on. we know nimrod put him down easily with sonics. i hate having him in vs threads because folks insist his durability protects him from everything so it becomes pointless. hopefully this thread will expose that misconception/myth. imo, based on most showings, his durability shouldn't be very far above high herald, if above it at all. his force field should really almost never come into play except in maybe 1-2 matches out of 10.
looking at his entire history, juggs is a powerful brick with high herald strength and RELATIVE invulnerability, but he is most certainly NOT beyond the power of high heralds to to harm or put down. at least not in all case.
For every Shatterstar there are way more instances of Cain tanking Wolverine's claws or Deadpool's swords.
And I do believe Cain's durability was always meant to be higher than herald level.
Even recently in a fight with a depowered version of Cain King Hyperion broke his hand trying to cave in Juggernaut's head.
You talk about Hulk but even in the recent WWH saga Cain went toe to toe with him and he was uninjured from the fight. Carver can mention WWH was holding back but even if he was that version of WWH was known for trying to quickly and in brutal fashion remove enemies from a fight. Look at what he did to Colossus in the same X-Men arc. He broke Colossus' arms without a second thought. The fact WWH relied on removing Cain from the battlefield speaks for how tough he is.
Colossonaut in Fear Itself survived a magical explosion that the Serpent was afraid Kuurth wouldn't survive.
Of course individual writers play up different aspects of Juggernaut depending on the story. Whether it's his unstoppability or his durability.
Also when he was turned into skeleton he was depowered and D'Spayre was using Cain's own stolen power against him.
Do I think Juggernaut can tank everything.. no but at his best against beings like Thor, Hulk, Hyperion it's well within his written history to tank their attacks.
Originally posted by Newjak
So I will agree their have been consistencies between Cain over the years but over all there are generally always better feats for Cain to go against those bad showings.For every Shatterstar there are way more instances of Cain tanking Wolverine's claws or Deadpool's swords.
And I do believe Cain's durability was always meant to be higher than herald level.
Even recently in a fight with a depowered version of Cain King Hyperion broke his hand trying to cave in Juggernaut's head.
You talk about Hulk but even in the recent WWH saga Cain went toe to toe with him and he was uninjured from the fight. Carver can mention WWH was holding back but even if he was that version of WWH was known for trying to quickly and in brutal fashion remove enemies from a fight. Look at what he did to Colossus in the same X-Men arc. He broke Colossus' arms without a second thought. The fact WWH relied on removing Cain from the battlefield speaks for how tough he is.
Colossonaut in Fear Itself survived a magical explosion that the Serpent was afraid Kuurth wouldn't survive.
Of course individual writers play up different aspects of Juggernaut depending on the story. Whether it's his unstoppability or his durability.
Also when he was turned into skeleton he was depowered and D'Spayre was using Cain's own stolen power against him.
Do I think Juggernaut can tank everything.. no but at his best against beings like Thor, Hulk, Hyperion it's well within his written history to tank their attacks.
hmm, i'm not so sure the feats all balance out tbh. at least not to a level that suggests he is beyond high herald imo. juggs almost never just tanks herald level attacks. he is often hurt by them. i'm still waiting on his best durability feat outside his force field. it may well be the skeleton one, but hulk has a similar feat. thor has taken blasts from celestials. ss has a host of crazy durability feats. superman? the list goes on and on. i don't think it can be said with any true reliability that juggs durability>thor/supes/ss/hulk etc... if it is, it isn't by much imo, and it's not consistently portrayed that way. maybe at one time such was his intent, but i don't believe that to be the case any more.
as far as wwh--i don't buy the holding back thing in any way shape or form--no more than hulk ever holds back, or thor, or superman..... hulk really didn't try to do much though. you're right--he was in a hurry and bfr'd him. that was the best and fastest way to handle him. i don't see that battle as proving anything about either character tbh.
i haven't read or seen that king hyperion book. where was that? was that the same king hyperion who supposedly killed his reality's galactus......?
anyway, i don't think we're too far removed here. you say he CAN be portrayed at his best as being beyond heralds. i agree, he can be, and at rare times, has been. but not USUALLY imo. looking at his overall track record, even if his lows ARE balanced by highs, it still equates to a more general showing in the herald range. least imo.
Originally posted by leonidasFair enough. I think his average generally tilts to slightly beyond High Herald for average but it such a crazy level for feats anyways it is hard to prove. So I can't say you are wrong for thinking the way you do. 🙂
hmm, i'm not so sure the feats all balance out tbh. at least not to a level that suggests he is beyond high herald imo. juggs almost never just tanks herald level attacks. he is often hurt by them. i'm still waiting on his best durability feat outside his force field. it may well be the skeleton one, but hulk has a similar feat. thor has taken blasts from celestials. ss has a host of crazy durability feats. superman? the list goes on and on. i don't think it can be said with any true reliability that juggs durability>thor/supes/ss/hulk etc... if it is, it isn't by much imo, and it's not consistently portrayed that way. maybe at one time such was his intent, but i don't believe that to be the case any more.as far as wwh--i don't buy the holding back thing in any way shape or form--no more than hulk ever holds back, or thor, or superman..... hulk really didn't try to do much though. you're right--he was in a hurry and bfr'd him. that was the best and fastest way to handle him. i don't see that battle as proving anything about either character tbh.
i haven't read or seen that king hyperion book. where was that? was that the same king hyperion who supposedly killed his reality's galactus......?
anyway, i don't think we're too far removed here. you say he CAN be portrayed at his best as being beyond heralds. i agree, he can be, and at rare times, has been. but not USUALLY imo. looking at his overall track record, even if his lows ARE balanced by highs, it still equates to a more general showing in the herald range. least imo.
Originally posted by leonidas
this is a good idea for a thread. it has already served to highlight the fact that there is an overestimation of jugg's 'invulnerability'. i can't believe though that no one has shown this scan:it was a cool showing for cain, but his invulnerability has NOT been consistently shown. what is the greatest durability feat juggs has WITHOUT the godblast/force field showing?
i'd submit it is the scan above. but hulk as a similar feat (thanos reduced him to a withered husk and hulk healed almost immediately) and logan has healed from things as bad.
in general, i'd don't think jugg's durability is much above the highest heralds at all. the exemplars hurt him with claw attacks, bedlam hurt him badly through his helmet with psi powers, hell he was even getting pressure pointed in that arc. but people are quick to say that is pis. but, in fact, his being hurt by attacks is more the NORM than the exception imo. not being hurt by guys like spidey and venom? pretty meaningless. can you see them hurting someone like ss? hulk has withstood a full on rage-filled spidey blitz without moving let alone being harmed. even logan's inability to hurt him is contradicted by the shatterstar showing (magic only explains so much as the despayre scan shows). juggs can be considered 'unstoppable' (though war hulk showed that has limits as well) once he starts moving, yet NOT be invulnerable. hell marvel even agreed to show wonderwoman taking him down. unstoppability does not equate to invulnerability and i've never understood conflating the 2.
early on in their careers hulk handled juggs just fine, carver showed scans of his doing even better later on. we know nimrod put him down easily with sonics. i hate having him in vs threads because folks insist his durability protects him from everything so it becomes pointless. hopefully this thread will expose that misconception/myth. imo, based on most showings, his durability shouldn't be very far above high herald, if above it at all. his force field should really almost never come into play except in maybe 1-2 matches out of 10.
looking at his entire history, juggs is a powerful brick with high herald strength and RELATIVE invulnerability, but he is most certainly NOT beyond the power of high heralds to to harm or put down. at least not in all case.
It is a standard for Thor to slam on him with Mjolnir and Juggs barely feel it. So it's safe to say that his durability is significantly beyond any high herald being. No being in comics has been portrayed as unstoppable as him. Yes, his unstoppable enchantment goes with with invulnerability. Otherwise, you can just ko him while he is charging.
IMO, nothing can physically harm a full powered Juggernaut.
