Ozymandias vs Captain America

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Cap is so ridiculously stronger than Ozy even if Ozy starts to block his attacks it will break Ozys bones

Well, that was partly what I was getting at. For example, I used to occasionally hold pads for a guy who went over to fight in Thailand. And beyond the fact that that shit hurt (seriously, that big bastard bruised my forearms through the pads), it took a lot of energy bracing myself for the hits, to the point where I was usually also sweating and breathing hard after a while. Granted, that guy had over 40lbs on me, but I am a sucker for punishment. But anyway, the actual point is that, yeah, just the act of blocking and dodging hits takes a toll, and Steve is an endurance tank. So, even if we assume Ozy can take Steve's blows well enough to block them, for how long can he keep it up though? Long enough to outlast a guy who, right after being transformed, chased down a car and then a mini-sub and wasn't even breathing hard afterwards. And that's one of his less impressive stamina feats.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Is that H1 post editing I see? The guy who has openly labeled that kind of antic as trolling in the past? I am shocked. Absolutely shocked.

Anyway, as I have said in the past, the bullet catch is a legit reaction feat. Because whether you want to attribute it to anticipation, enhanced perceptions, or just insanely conditioned reflexes and muscle memory (which I think is actually most likely, given humans can apparently train themselves to superhuman levels by real world standards in that universe), he still had to physically turn his body and move his limb a notable amount of distance after the muzzle flash.

However, that also doesn't guarantee a win here. Cap has him in pretty much every other category, by feats. And those things matter. Stamina, endurance, strength. Blocking takes energy. Absorbing the impact from those blows (especially from a stronger opponent). Dodging takes energy. Just the movement. That's why if you're doing pad holding for someone practicing kicks and strikes, you yourself often start to work up a sweat after a while (well, unless the other person is a weakling). Never mind the fact an experienced opponent can counteract a speed advantage through strategy. A skilled fighter, for example, could throw a 5-move combo where the first 4 hits miss so that it creates an opening for the 5th, because they force their opponent to defend in such a way that their body position simply doesn't allow them to dodge or block the last hit. So, even under the premise that Ozy is faster, speed alone isn't a guarantee of winning. Especially as Steve himself does have a number of very good speed and reflex feats at this point, despite certain people's efforts to discredit them. The Captain just has too much going for him. Which is to be expected at this point. He has a ton of material to draw from relative to Ozy at this point.

Everyone agrees that it's a feat. We just don't agree that it proves what h1 claims it does. IE, it doesn't prove that Ozy saw the bullet in slow motion nor that he can actually fight at that speed.

Well, as I said, I think it's probably more a case of reflexes and muscle memory. Because people in that universe can apparently reach higher levels than real life humans can via conditioning and training. And Ozy seems like he commits to everything he practices with full dedication. I mean that is one of the main points of repetition in training. You condition yourself to be able to take a defensive or avoiding action without needing to consciously analyze the situation first. The response has been hardwired into you via practice. Am I saying Ozy spends his days having people shoot at him? No. But he likely, in universe, has a very strict fitness and training regime that he maintains to keep himself at peak performance. He seems like the kind of guy.

But you would agree that it doesn't prove he actually saw the bullet in slow motion or that he could fight at that speed?

Three points guys:

1) I would like to reiterate that h1 is a troll. You can literally deconstruct his posts where you can see the bait and hook. I’ve reiterated already that the best thing to do would be to ignore him.

2) But I acknowledge that people are bored. And that his troll game is a masochist “beat me up, senpai” kind of trolling and that people are bored so I guess have at it. stick out tongue

3) You guys already had it 3 or so pages ago. And DDM (whether intentional or not) already pretty much cracked it. It’s how Ozy fights. He fights with both feet planted flat on the ground and tends to do it at close distance against his opponents and simply blocks/counters more than dodges. Anyone with a casual understanding of MMA (those who watch MMA fights for example) would know that this leaves you open to shots/tackles/grapples/grabs/takedowns/etc. Doesn’t matter how fast your hands are, it comes down to how fast your feet move (to dodge an incoming shot/tackle). You can block it, sure, but you’ll need to have either a solid clinch game or have a solid sprawl. Otherwise, you’ll need solid ground game/grappling skills. Ozy has none of those (or at least I don’t recall ever seeing him having any). I’m surprised the more knowledgeable MMA people haven’t pointed this out, tbh.

Furthermore, with basic deductive logic we can easily break down the fight here:

If Comedian = tackles Ozy
And Cap > Comedian in speed/strength and > skill in grappling
Then Cap => tackle Ozy

If Cap grappling > Ozy grappling (where Ozy grappling = 0)
Then Cap wins via choke/submission/ground and ground.

Breaking it down. Ozy’s striking/blocking/counter fighting style is extremely vulnerable to Cap’s more well rounded style (grappler/striker/submission) and it doesn’t matter if Ozy can block all his strikes, one takedown (for where Ozy has little to no defense) and it is over.

Originally posted by h1a8
Slow is an opinion. What's slow to you might not be slow to someone else. Like I said, in some scenes Batman was a lot faster than others.

Unskilled is actually a false statement since we know that Batman has some degree of skill.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Three points guys:

1) I would like to reiterate that h1 is a troll. You can literally deconstruct his posts where you can see the bait and hook. I’ve reiterated already that the best thing to do would be to ignore him.

2) But I acknowledge that people are bored. And that his troll game is a masochist “beat me up, senpai” kind of trolling and that people are bored so I guess have at it. stick out tongue

3) You guys already had it 3 or so pages ago. And DDM (whether intentional or not) already pretty much cracked it. It’s how Ozy fights. He fights with both feet planted flat on the ground and tends to do it at close distance against his opponents and simply blocks/counters more than dodges. Anyone with a casual understanding of MMA (those who watch MMA fights for example) would know that this leaves you open to shots/tackles/grapples/grabs/takedowns/etc. Doesn’t matter how fast your hands are, it comes down to how fast your feet move (to dodge an incoming shot/tackle). You can block it, sure, but you’ll need to have either a solid clinch game or have a solid sprawl. Otherwise, you’ll need solid ground game/grappling skills. Ozy has none of those (or at least I don’t recall ever seeing him having any). I’m surprised the more knowledgeable MMA people haven’t pointed this out, tbh.

Furthermore, with basic deductive logic we can easily break down the fight here:

If Comedian = tackles Ozy
And Cap > Comedian in speed/strength and > skill in grappling
Then Cap => tackle Ozy

If Cap grappling > Ozy grappling (where Ozy grappling = 0)
Then Cap wins via choke/submission/ground and ground.

Breaking it down. Ozy’s striking/blocking/counter fighting style is extremely vulnerable to Cap’s more well rounded style (grappler/striker/submission) and it doesn’t matter if Ozy can block all his strikes, one takedown (for where Ozy has little to no defense) and it is over.

As I was reading this post I just had this playing in my head lol:

YouTube video

Ground and *pound. Typo. 😛

Double post

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Three points guys:

1) I would like to reiterate that h1 is a troll. You can literally deconstruct his posts where you can see the bait and hook. I’ve reiterated already that the best thing to do would be to ignore him.

2) But I acknowledge that people are bored. And that his troll game is a masochist “beat me up, senpai” kind of trolling and that people are bored so I guess have at it. stick out tongue

3) You guys already had it 3 or so pages ago. And DDM (whether intentional or not) already pretty much cracked it. It’s how Ozy fights. He fights with both feet planted flat on the ground and tends to do it at close distance against his opponents and simply blocks/counters more than dodges. Anyone with a casual understanding of MMA (those who watch MMA fights for example) would know that this leaves you open to shots/tackles/grapples/grabs/takedowns/etc. Doesn’t matter how fast your hands are, it comes down to how fast your feet move (to dodge an incoming shot/tackle). You can block it, sure, but you’ll need to have either a solid clinch game or have a solid sprawl. Otherwise, you’ll need solid ground game/grappling skills. Ozy has none of those (or at least I don’t recall ever seeing him having any). I’m surprised the more knowledgeable MMA people haven’t pointed this out, tbh.

Furthermore, with basic deductive logic we can easily break down the fight here:

If Comedian = tackles Ozy
And Cap > Comedian in speed/strength and > skill in grappling
Then Cap => tackle Ozy

If Cap grappling > Ozy grappling (where Ozy grappling = 0)
Then Cap wins via choke/submission/ground and ground.

Breaking it down. Ozy’s striking/blocking/counter fighting style is extremely vulnerable to Cap’s more well rounded style (grappler/striker/submission) and it doesn’t matter if Ozy can block all his strikes, one takedown (for where Ozy has little to no defense) and it is over.

You are the troll. You are flaming me and trolling me.
I provide arguments to debate. This is a debate forum yes?
If someone disagrees then they should respectfully tell why. It's not hard. Failure to address my arguments shows a lack of debating skill and or laziness.

A troll is someone who ignores evidence and doesn't address someone else's argument (whether it's valid or not). A troll flames. A troll isn't a person who sides with the unpopular belief.

You just provided an argument (in which I will rebut in a second).
That's called debating.

No one did that. And what about Silent? You don't see him as trolling? A being catching a bullet in mid air has to have superhuman reflexes and speed. But noooo. You rather allow him to Troll since he's supporting your character.

Anyway. Here's the rebuttal

1. Cap doesn't sprawl or clinch. And if he ever did it was extremely rare. He fights fisticuffs (punches and kicks). That's his character. Just look at all his one on one fights.

2. Perceiving and reacting to a bullet implies that you have superhuman perceptions and speed. Ozy would see a tackle coming a mile away. He defended against a tackle at the very beginning of the Rorschach fight. The comedian showing is unusable for several reasons.
A. Characters fight at their best, not their worst.
B. Ozy is a master fighter. It goes against all common sense if can't defend against being tackled (as he already shown), especially when viewing Cap as a near statue. He can easily either evade or counter strike Cap. Ozy even used incredible foot speed to avoid the multiple shots from the assassin.
In the last fight, Ozy was shown incredibly nimble and agile (very graceful).

In summary, Cap is not sprawling/clinching here or attempting to due to character. Ozy (when at his best) will perceive every movement from Cap in slow motion. He will always be a step ahead (calculation with genius intellect as well as speed of brain processing).

If Comedian = tackles Ozy
And Cap > Comedian in speed/strength and > skill in grappling
Then Cap => tackle Ozy

If Cap grappling > Ozy grappling (where Ozy grappling = 0)
Then Cap wins via choke/submission/ground and pound.

Irrefutable logic.

👆

@h1
Ozy doesn't fight at "bullet catching" speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
A troll is someone who ignores evidence and doesn't address someone else's argument (whether it's valid or not).

Well, are you going to address my argument, or are you a troll?

This thread is still going?

Legit lol @ you guys still arguing the exact same points you have been for 6+ years

50% of the blame belongs to DDM because he was originally arguing for Ozy.

Cap can literally rip Ozy in half, there's a reason we don't think people like the Kingsman can beat Cap, despite being way skilled and faster then him, his strength and durability push the limits of what even street-level superhumans can do.

Does that mean speed and skill mean nothing to Cap? Of course not. But it's a pretty obvious pick when your opponent can literally snap you in half with his bare hands.

Who would win, Bruce Lee or a ****ing Gorilla? The Gorilla is the answer.

I'm not confident anything but peak human is capable of hurting Cap.

To compare this fight to something:

Marv vs Kevin from Sin City but with way less of a speed and skill gap.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Cap can literally rip Ozy in half, there's a reason we don't think people like the Kingsman can beat Cap, despite being way skilled and faster then him, his strength and durability push the limits of what even street-level superhumans can do.

Does that mean speed and skill mean nothing to Cap? Of course not. But it's a pretty obvious pick when your opponent can literally snap you in half with his bare hands.

Who would win, Bruce Lee or a ****ing Gorilla? The Gorilla is the answer.

I'm not confident anything but peak human is capable of hurting Cap.

To compare this fight to something:

Marv vs Kevin from Sin City but with way less of a speed and skill gap.

Ozy is superhuman in strength, speed and durability. He has multiple feats proving this. You act as if he is a normal human. Hell, Cap failed to ko multiple humans on the elevator with one strike.

It goes both ways. You can't make Cap out of something that's not typical when he's fighting humans and argue against someone else accused of doing the same. It's bias.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
This thread is still going?

Legit lol @ you guys still arguing the exact same points you have been for 6+ years

That's because they are arguing from bias and not addressing simple logic.

If a character can perceive another character in very slow motion, is the smartest man in the world, has phenomenal calculation ability and is several steps ahead of most people, is a master fighter, and a legit superhuman level in strength and speedthen how in the hell is it still impossible to beat Cap?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
If Comedian = tackles Ozy
And Cap > Comedian in speed/strength and > skill in grappling
Then Cap => tackle Ozy

If Cap grappling > Ozy grappling (where Ozy grappling = 0)
Then Cap wins via choke/submission/ground and pound.

Irrefutable logic.

👆

1. Cap doesn't tackle when fighting one on one. Out of character. He stands up and fight with punches, kicks, etc. This alone defeats your argument.

2. Ozy being pushed back by Comedian is contradicted by Ozy's later perception ability, speed, and later defense against being tackled by Rorschach. This alone defeats your argument.

Ozy doesn’t consistently operate faster than bullets

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy is superhuman in strength, speed and durability. He has multiple feats proving this. You act as if he is a normal human. Hell, Cap failed to ko multiple humans on the elevator with one strike.

It goes both ways. You can't make Cap out of something that's not typical when he's fighting humans and argue against someone else accused of doing the same. It's bias.

No I agree Ozy is superhuman, what I don't agree with is that his strength is Superhuman. I assume you're talking about when he threw Rorschach across the room?

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy is superhuman in strength, speed and durability. He has multiple feats proving this. You act as if he is a normal human. Hell, Cap failed to ko multiple humans on the elevator with one strike.

It goes both ways. You can't make Cap out of something that's not typical when he's fighting humans and argue against someone else accused of doing the same. It's bias.

That's because they are arguing from bias and not addressing simple logic.

If a character can perceive another character in very slow motion, is the smartest man in the world, has phenomenal calculation ability and is several steps ahead of most people, is a master fighter, and a legit superhuman level in strength and speedthen how in the hell is it still impossible to beat Cap?

1. Cap doesn't tackle when fighting one on one. Out of character. He stands up and fight with punches, kicks, etc. This alone defeats your argument.

2. Ozy being pushed back by Comedian is contradicted by Ozy's later perception ability, speed, and later defense against being tackled by Rorschach. This alone defeats your argument.

Amazed at how much time you waste here

H1 is openly biased.