Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Picked the wrong forum then. Go to a Christian website and ask them.
He asked and made it clear that he didn't want any bullshit regarding whether or not god exists and other comments, don't like it? don't comment and don't be a dick, he's not being an ass , he asked respectfully and we - those of us who respect other people's opinions and religions - should respect his request. don't be a douche Lucien.
After all his original post stated that he wanted the opinions of people who believed and if people who don't believe, had any opinions they could also comment so long as they are willing to discuss it in a hypothetical sense.
Besides what power made you wanna click on thread if you so strongly feel that he should have posted this on a "Christian" website? that's such a foolish and ignorant thing to say. okay so you don't share the same views? fine, whatever. share your opinion, Stay on topic as requested and don't be a jackass.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Keep in mind, the main reason I said "Question for Christians" was because I wanted [b]the actual topic to be discussed by people who either believe in the Christian Heaven and Hell, or people who don't believe but are willing to discuss what is a hypothetical for them. I specifically did not want this turning into a God/Heaven/Hell does/doesn't exist argument. [/B]
The terms Heaven and Hell are written in the bible, so I just cited what I read in the book on what it said would happen. I mean, if your post was directed at me. If not disregard this post, no argument here if it was.
Originally posted by Stoic
The terms Heaven and Hell are written in the bible, so I just cited what I read in the book on what it said would happen. I mean, if your post was directed at me. If not disregard this post, no argument here if it was.
He's just pigheaded and doesn't want to hear the truth. 😛
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
He's just pigheaded and doesn't want to hear the truth. 😛
Because your opinion is truth? none of us holds the truth when regarding something as incomprehensible as what our origins are, there are so many interesting theories and such, that say many different things, all of them different from each other. Don't pretend to understand or know this so-called "truth"-this is coming from someone who is agnostic btw- don't act as if you hold the answers to something we - as a species - still know nothing about. no one is "pig-headed" for believing in something higher than themselves - to say such a thing is the height of foolishness and ignorance.
But this has derailed the thread far enough, and original poster has requested we do not do this. Out of respect for him, i'll stop. i hope you'll do the same.
But returning to the topic. Do more people go to heaven or hell?
It's a hard answer i think, i was raised as christian/catholic before i became agnostic and they - or rather "we" believed that there were many things you can do to be condemned to hell. But even with that i don't think - well "I used to think" would be more appropriate- that you go to hell unless you've done something completely and utterly horrible. murder, rape and the like come to mind. So yeah, i think or used to think or whatever. that more people go to heaven than hell. but that's just my opinion.
Originally posted by Stoic
I never said anything about heaven not existing though. I only said that it will pass away, along with the Earth. The bible also clearly states in Job, that Lucifer can enter Heaven, and walk right up to God, and ask him if he can destroy people. You can see things the way that you want to. That is your right.
You said nobody was going to Heaven, then you provide proof that Lucifer does go to Heaven (since we admit is a temporal state it doesn't matter if he leaves afterwards). This has nothing to do with the way I see things, it's a logical contradiction.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Because your opinion is truth?
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
none of us holds the truth when regarding something as incomprehensible as what our origins are, there are so many interesting theories and such, that say many different things, all of them different from each other.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Don't pretend to understand or know this so-called "truth"-this is coming from someone who is agnostic btw- don't act as if you hold the answers to something we - as a species - still know nothing about.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
no one is "pig-headed" for believing in something higher than themselves - to say such a thing is the height of foolishness and ignorance.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
But this has derailed the thread far enough, and original poster has requested we do not do this. Out of respect for him, i'll stop. i hope you'll do the same.
Originally posted by Fated XtasyYou just gave a three paragraph, over-the-top response to a fragmented, benign remark that wasn't even directed at you and possessed not a trace of ill will.
He asked and made it clear that he didn't want any bullshit regarding whether or not god exists and other comments, don't like it? don't comment and don't be a dick, he's not being an ass , he asked respectfully and we - those of us who respect other people's opinions and religions - should respect his request. don't be a douche Lucien.After all his original post stated that he wanted the opinions of people who believed and if people who don't believe, had any opinions they could also comment so long as they are willing to discuss it in a hypothetical sense.
Besides what power made you wanna click on thread if you so strongly feel that he should have posted this on a "Christian" website? that's such a foolish and ignorant thing to say. okay so you don't share the same views? fine, whatever. [b]share your opinion, Stay on topic as requested and don't be a jackass.
[/B]
Congratulations, jackass.
Originally posted by Bentley
You said nobody was going to Heaven, then you provide proof that Lucifer does go to Heaven (since we admit is a temporal state it doesn't matter if he leaves afterwards). This has nothing to do with the way I see things, it's a logical contradiction.
I'm not sure I'm following? What is contradictory about anything that I stated? Presently Heaven exist, but it will pass away like the Earth that is all that I stated. The bible clearly states that God would create a new Heaven and a new Earth (Revelation 21:1). We are not going to the one that presently exists because it will be destroyed. Revelation 21:1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
As for who will make it to Heaven?
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Revelation 2:11 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
John 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
What does the bible say about loving God? Obedience, plain and simple obedience.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Who was Jesus? Was he and the Father one in spirit?
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14King James Version (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Who Will Go To Hell?
Matthew 7:13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it .
Philippians 3:18,19 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame -- who set their mind on earthly things.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Re: Question for Christians: Do More People Go To Heaven Or Hell?
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well, this is a question for my fellow Christians... do you believe more people go to Heaven or Hell?
Have you looked at the moral implications?
How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?
Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw
I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.
In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?
Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?
If and when you say yes, you become his.
-----------------------------------
The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.
---------------------------------
It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning and demanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.
Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.
Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?
Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?
Your cowardly God did not.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
The Bible teaches that the sin of Adam is passed down to every generation. We all are born sinners and need salvation. So, you are not responsible for Adam's original sin, but your own sins since you've been born.
Not at all biblical.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
Regards
DL
Re: Re: Question for Christians: Do More People Go To Heaven Or Hell?
Originally posted by Stoic
I'm not sure I'm following? What is contradictory about anything that I stated? Presently Heaven exist,
Ok, but then there are people going to Heaven, they are not just staying in Heaven. You said people weren't going to Heaven and I took that to face value, it was just a misunderstanding really.
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?
The problem with your argumentation is that the option isn't any better. Stigmatizing human sacrifice is fine and dandy, but having a God that demands pain and suffering while being unwilling to suffer pain and suffering himself, is just as hypocritical and abstract that it can only please those who look at it from cold and indiferent eyes.
Christian love is insane.
Originally posted by Greatest I am
How do you get that from scriptures that say the wide path goes to hell while the narrow one goes to heaven?Regards
DL
you're talking about this ---
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Matthew 7:13-14
the gate, that leads to life, is narrow... yes... and those who find it are few... yes... but this statement is for those who have known the gospel... there are many people who does not even know who Jesus is... i mean really... there are billions of people in the world...
there are many people who does not know the gospel but are good people... and all of them are going to heaven ---
"Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.
Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?
And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."
Matthew 25:34-40
these righteous people, they don't know anything... but because of their good works, they will be saved... let us remember that God does not only save believers:
"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
I Timothy 4:10
in the conclusive book of Revelation, John saw in the vision ---
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
And crying out with a loud voice, Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Revelation 7:9-10
this great multitude are people who will be saved... 🙂
Originally posted by dyajeep
you're talking about this ---"Enter by the narrow gate; for [b]the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction
, and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Matthew 7:13-14the gate, that leads to life, is narrow... yes... and those who find it are few... yes... but this statement is for those who have known the gospel... there are many people who does not even know who Jesus is... i mean really... there are billions of people in the world...
there are many people who does not know the gospel but are good people... and all of them are going to heaven ---
"Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.
Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?
And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."
Matthew 25:34-40these righteous people, they don't know anything... but because of their good works, they will be saved... let us remember that God does not only save believers:
"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
I Timothy 4:10in the conclusive book of Revelation, John saw in the vision ---
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
And crying out with a loud voice, Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Revelation 7:9-10this great multitude are people who will be saved... 🙂 [/B]
Wow. Your quotes automatically have more power than mine.
I concede as you have evidence and I cannot have anything that you would accept from your bible as all your quotes trump mine. You lose.
Regards
DL