The True Reason Vader Lost to Kenobi

Originally posted by Marco1907
@darth power

Dooku kicked Anakin via fencing, he never kicks people without bending the blade, the feats I am talking about is physical strength & martial arts, not kicking via finding an opening

We're talking about Physical attacks during a Lightsaber fight. Of which Dooku's kick on Anakin (while simultaneously disposing of Kenobi no less) was one of the best I've seen in SW against such a strong opponent like Skywalker.

And it's not the first time Dooku's done that. He continually kick floored Ventress (while having to watch out for Opress), he kicked Kenobi a good long distance as well, while fighting Skywalker, almost sending Kenobi off the ledge (Season 6 Clone Wars).

So the question I'm asking you is... Why is it that Dooku's the one whose accused of being weak against Physical attacks? Why not Ventress, or Kenobi or even Skywalker, when they are the ones who have taken the worse physical beatings from Dooku and not the other way around?

It's because there's this silly misconception going around that Dooku goes down to " TOO MUCH KINETIC ENERGY" which comes from a quote from the Revenge of the Sith novel, which people have overblown and taken completely out of context. The correct context being that Dooku shouldn't go "head to head" against a physical beast like Opress or Skywalker, with his One handed style or fencing, ESPECIALLY while fighting off a 2nd Opponent.

But in a one on one scenario, where he utilizes Makashi in the correct way, by deflecting and redirecting and giving ground and using footwork to evade... In that scenario Dooku can handle physical beasts just fine.

And even in situations where he's force to go "head to head" (e.g. in a cramped area, or against multiple opponents), as long as he's prepared for it, he can do it, with his Impressive showings of Force enhanced strength, and ability to revitalize those Force reserves in an instance.

Originally posted by Marco1907

Remember the part Anakin kicked Dooku in RotS, he kicked casually with his rage, thats what I am talking about.

Casually and with Rage are a contradiction. If he did it with Rage then it was hardly done casually.

In any case yes I remember. And did that kick defeat Dooku, floor him leaving him helpless, or anything of the sort? Nope, he just rolled with it landing on his feet. This despite the fact that it came right after he just finished disposing of Kenobi.

So again, I don't get what exactly you are talking about, except it seems you have this preconceived notion drilled in that Dooku is weak against Kinetic energy/Physical attacks, for which there is little to no evidence.

Originally posted by Marco1907 Sidious has very decent physical feats. You can see it here ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

Sidious contend with Maul & Savage in terms of physical strength. Deflected Savage's attacks with ease, tanked Maul's kick and Savage's headbutt, then he kicked Savage etc.

Ok. Not that I ever actually said Dooku is as strong as Sidious, or anything of the sort. But let's just examine those examples you have given anyway.

He deflected Savage's attacks with ease- As did Dooku in their sparring match. Dooku also in ROTS Deflects and even Blocks "Head on" the combined blows of Kenobi and Skywalker. And he does it One Handed no less.

Tanked Maul's kick and Savage's headbutt- Tanking them would be just standing there and not moving. Sidious rolled with those blows, just as Dooku rolls with blows when he gets hit.

But again I must stress I have no interest in comparing Dooku's strength with his Master's as that's a no brainer.

I'm addressing this issue that somehow Dooku is weak against Kinetic energy or Physical attacks during Saber Combat because of his age and/or fighting style. So I have to ask you, based on the evidence of who hits who, and how well they take it, is it not Ventress, Kenobi and Skywalker who are the ones who seem weak to Physical attacks, when fighting against Dooku?!

Originally posted by Marco1907 As for Yoda, he kicked Sidious (casually) in comic book, so thats a very solid feat as well.

Edit, here is the Yoda's physical strength feat :

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/StarWars-CloneWarsAdventuresVolume3-054_zps65ebea22.jpg

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/StarWars-CloneWarsAdventuresVolume3-056_zps18fa8486.jpg

Transporting a heavy weaponry with ease.

Again, I don't see the relevance of comparing the strength of Dooku to that of his former master. But let's bear in mind he has fought Yoda, and didn't exactly get disarmed by 1 stroke of Yoda's blade. That in itself is super impressive given the physical feats of Yoda you've posted which are well beyond Savage Opress's and Darth Maul's physical feats.

I know that we shouldn't compare Dooku with Sidious & Yoda, however you suggested that comparision with this ;

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Which is why he depends on "Force Enhanced" strength like Yoda and Sidious do.
So if he's using up too much in his Force reserves by fighting mutiple opponents, then it may be easier for a strong opponent to get the better of him.

^ I wasn't making a power comparison there. I was explaining why Dooku's age doesn't make him weak or prone to Kinetic energy or Physical attacks simply due to his age. And I related that to other examples.

Anyway it seems to me its Dooku who beats on the likes of Kenobi and Ventress via Physical attacks. So if anything we should come to the conclusion that it's those 2 who are weak against Physical attacks.. Not Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ I wasn't making a power comparison there. I was explaining why Dooku's age doesn't make him weak or prone to Kinetic energy or Physical attacks simply due to his age. And I related that to other examples.

Anyway it seems to me its Dooku who beats on the likes of Kenobi and Ventress via Physical attacks. So if anything we should come to the conclusion that it's those 2 who are weak against Physical attacks.. Not Dooku.

As I said before, those are fencing kicks, not via martial arts or physical strength.

Ventress has decent force combat feats which is exceeds Dooku ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBPF4mRPUXA

And for Obi-Wan he has good resistance feats, against torture, Grievous, and Anakin's djem-so

So both have better physical feats than Dooku.

I don't know why are insisting to deny Dooku's only weakness, he has only ''one'' weakness, and its very natural. Except physical, he is very good at dueling skill & force attacks.

These qualities are enough to defeat very skilled warriors such as Ventress & Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Marco1907
As I said before, those are fencing kicks, not via martial arts or physical strength.

Ventress has decent force combat feats which is exceeds Dooku ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBPF4mRPUXA

And for Obi-Wan he has good resistance feats, against torture, Grievous, and Anakin's djem-so

So both have better physical feats than Dooku.

I don't know why are insisting to deny Dooku's only weakness, he has only ''one'' weakness, and its very natural. Except physical, he is very good at dueling skill & force attacks.

These qualities are enough to defeat very skilled warriors such as Ventress & Obi-Wan.

They are not fencing feats. They are physical feats done while fencing. And since all fights between Jedi/Sith will take place in Saber fighting, those are the most important applications of "strength" and "martial combat" in Star Wars versus matches.

Ventress gets her ass handed to her by Dooku Physically and via TK. So showing her beat on a few Clone Troopers to "prove" she's stronger is frankly laughable.

Obi-Wan didn't show good resistance against Dooku's physical attacks, so clearly Dooku's stronger than Anakin going by the logic you're using.

Again claiming Ventress and Kenobi have greater physical feats than Dooku, when Dooku's the one who keeps "Physically" beating on them is silly.

I'm denying Dooku's "1 weakness" because there's little to no evidence for it. You (and others... So you're not the only one) have taken one line on the Revenge of the Sith novel and completely blown it out of proportion and completely taken it out of context.
And the "1 weakness" you're giving him is a pretty huge one, because you're essentially saying Dooku won't be beating anyone whose skilled and really "strong." Even taking it to the level where you're claiming a less powerful Sith Lord like Maul defeat him.

But that line of thinking is simply wrong. Dooku's a lot stronger than you give him credit for. And can handle "uber strong people" just fine.

@darth power

Dooku beats Savage via force attacks who is insanely strong.

Also Dooku should beat RotS Anakin via force attacks too, however Maul has grown in force too, he already stomped Kenobi 3 times, force pulled a space ship, collapse caves, used force waves etc. Since there is no big difference in TK, thats why Maul can beat Dooku.

So for defeating Dooku, you need good TK feats and good strength feats, strength is not the only answer.

Originally posted by Marco1907
@darth power

Dooku beats Savage via force attacks who is insanely strong.

Also Dooku should beat RotS Anakin via force attacks too, however Maul has grown in force too, he already stomped Kenobi 3 times, force pulled a space ship, collapse caves, used force waves etc. Since there is no big difference in TK, thats why Maul can beat Dooku.

So for defeating Dooku, you need good TK feats and good strength feats, strength is not the only answer.

I understand that argument for saying Suit Vader has the right tools to defeat Dooku.

But I don't really think Maul is quite physically strong enough or powerful enough with TK.

He's still not beaten Kenobi in a Saber fight, in fact just barely handled the several kicks Kenobi landed on him in "Revival." And even though I agree Maul is stronger than Kenobi in Force TK, I don't think he "stomps" Kenobi with TK. Bare in mind when he Overpowered Kenobi in Revival, Kenobi was likely tiring from battling both Maul and Opress. It was more impressive in "Sith Hunters" when he Force Choked him. But he clearly can't do that anytime her likes. Because if he could then he would have in their one on one in Revival.