Originally posted by Lestov16
Hmm. Thanks for posting SOURCES DDM. IDK if I accept it though. If Wilson was beaten in his car and shot Brown during that confrontation, I would have no problem justifying it as self-defense. But at the point Brown was shot, less-lethal options were possible and should have been considered.
👆
Wilson reported being punched in the face...twice? This was when he made the decision to use lethal force.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-documents/index.html
Wilson didn't have a taser so he had a gun and possibly a baton. It was reported that Brown reached for Wilson's gun, too. This escalated to lethal force.
So, people b*tched about Ferguson not having tasers; rightfully so. I think I agree with that. I am positive other cops who have been physically assaulted AND had their guns reached for, were able to diffuse the situation with a taser and/or martial arts (locks that they DO teach you). Wilson didn't have a taser and he was positive he would not be able to diffuse the situation with martial arts so he was left with only one other option which was lethal force.
Lethal force is met with lethal force. I stated earlier in the thread that if Brown reached for and tried to take Wilson's gun, Brown's life was over at that point (unless a cop with a better head and better equipment was in that situation).
Apparently, here are Wilson's injuries (looks like he was punched twice, just like his report):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/darren-wilson-injury-photos_n_6216208.html
You know? Just fooling around with my brothers during the holidays, I have gotten worse injuries. It doesn't look like he was punched very hard in the face or the back of the head. That, of course, does not justify Brown's actions. But, yes, he seems to have been punched twice.
Hmm.....OK I'll admit you got me on that one.
Still, there is no 100% proof that Brown charged at Wilson. At again, even if he did, less lethal options were possible.
Just to clarify, my main issue with this whole thing has nothing to do with Brown (I thought he was a douchebag in that store) or racism (pretty sure events would have went down the same way regardless of the race of Brown or Wilson). My issue has to do with police professionalism and how much force they are allowed to exercise.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
If he was shot in the back where is your proof?You have yet to provide a shred of it.
No you dancing around it.
I posted the construction worker's eye-witness account which most closely matches with the forensic report. Though the construction worker reports that he thought Brown was shot from behind, we know from the autopsy that he wasn't. These were...what...warning shots that Wilson was firing? I suppose Brown got scared from those warning shots which is why he decided to turn around. I am just guessing.
But, read that construction worker's eye-witness account. To me, since it does not contradict the autopsy, it corroborates why people thought Brown was shot from behind, and shows us how Wilson may have made the wrong decision (or right one), I am comfortable with concluding that Wilson probably got overly zealous with lethal force and should have kept a more level head in that situation. I do not think what Wilson did was criminal as he should have kept calmer and paid better attention to Brown.
Yes, Brown DID start walking towards Wilson AFTER he (Brown) stopped fleeing and turned around. That matches Wilson's story. The construction worker said Brown walked 25 feet towards Wilson. Walked. Not charged. Walked. But he walked those 25 feet with his hands up and it wasn't until Wilson started to shoot again that Brown dropped his hands. Wilson, imo, mistook that for Brown becoming more aggressive. To me, reality dictates that it was Brown dropping his arms because he was just f*cking shot in the arm. The construction worker is unsure if Brown was going to charge (or was trying to) or was just falling forward but Wilson assumed the later and ended Brown's life.
To me, the reasonable conclusion is that Wilson didn't have a level head in this situation and Brown could still be alive (but with injuries) if Wilson kept calmer. However, also part of that conclusion is that Wilson did nothing criminal in his actions. Manslaughter, murder 1, etc. None of those would apply. If we cannot say, for sure, that Brown, based on the evidence, was or was not charging Wilson, then we cannot criminally charge Wilson. We have to have what is called "beyond reasonable doubt" in order to get a conviction and we are definitely not beyond reasonable doubt. There is ample proof that Wilson was assaulted in his cab, there is ample proof that his gun did indeed go off in his cab and struck Wilson, and there is proof that Brown was not shot from behind. But none of that proof shows that Wilson committed criminal actions. Perhaps less than optimal. Perhaps poorly performing his duties? But not criminal.
As I've stated, Wilson should never be allowed to work in law enforcement the rest of his life.
Originally posted by dadudemon
👆Wilson reported being punched in the face...twice? This was when he made the decision to use lethal force.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-documents/index.html
Wilson didn't have a taser so he had a gun and possibly a baton. It was reported that Brown reached for Wilson's gun, too. This escalated to lethal force.
So, people b*tched about Ferguson not having tasers; rightfully so. I think I agree with that. I am positive other cops who have been physically assaulted AND had their guns reached for, were able to diffuse the situation with a taser and/or martial arts (locks that they DO teach you). Wilson didn't have a taser and he was positive he would not be able to diffuse the situation with martial arts so he was left with only one other option which was lethal force.
Lethal force is met with lethal force. I stated earlier in the thread that if Brown reached for and tried to take Wilson's gun, Brown's life was over at that point (unless a cop with a better head and better equipment was in that situation).
Apparently, here are Wilson's injuries (looks like he was punched twice, just like his report):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/darren-wilson-injury-photos_n_6216208.html
You know? Just fooling around with my brothers during the holidays, I have gotten worse injuries. It doesn't look like he was punched very heard in the face or the back of the head. That, of course, does not justify Brown's actions. But, yes, he seems to have been punched twice.
Yeah, see, that's my whole problem. Lack of police professionalism.
Police resources and training shouldn't vary from city to city. As you stated, Ferguson PD should have had tazers at the very least. Also as you stated, a cop with a better head and equipment (i.e. a professional) would have handled that far better, so really it boils down to Ferguson PD's lack of resources and competence, and that's what scares me.
The police where I live in Syracuse NY are (for the most part) awesome at their jobs and I have no problem with them because they approach their jobs with the highest caliber of professionalism, as any law enforcement agency should do. But there are police departments out there (such as Ferguson) which do not employ the same level of competence, and this should be unacceptable on a national level.
All law enforcement officers across the country should be superlatively competent at their jobs. I realize this is idealistic, but it is what should be, and it's this point that I'm trying to make. Did Brown's retarded actions in the store lead to his death, yes, but it didn't have to if the cops were more skilled at being cops.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Did Brown's retarded actions in the store lead to his death, yes, but it didn't have to if the cops were more skilled at being cops.
I would add that his actions in the store and his actions with Wilson were both very stupid decisions and that lead to his death. But I also have the same conclusion as you do: he'd probably be alive if a better cop was in that same situation.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I posted the construction worker's eye-witness account which most closely matches with the forensic report. Though the construction worker reports that he thought Brown was shot from behind, we know from the autopsy that he wasn't. These were...what...warning shots that Wilson was firing? I suppose Brown got scared from those warning shots which is why he decided to turn around. I am just guessing.But, read that construction worker's eye-witness account. To me, since it does not contradict the autopsy, it corroborates why people thought Brown was shot from behind, and shows us how Wilson may have made the wrong decision (or right one), I am comfortable with concluding that Wilson probably got overly zealous with lethal force and should have kept a more level head in that situation. I do not think what Wilson did was criminal as he should have kept calmer and paid better attention to Brown.
Yes, Brown DID start walking towards Wilson AFTER he (Brown) stopped fleeing and turned around. That matches Wilson's story. The construction worker said Brown walked 25 feet towards Wilson. Walked. Not charged. Walked. But he walked those 25 feet with his hands up and it wasn't until Wilson started to shoot again that Brown dropped his hands. Wilson, imo, mistook that for Brown becoming more aggressive. To me, reality dictates that it was Brown dropping his arms because he was just f*cking shot in the arm. The construction worker is unsure if Brown was going to charge (or was trying to) or was just falling forward but Wilson assumed the later and ended Brown's life.
To me, the reasonable conclusion is that Wilson didn't have a level head in this situation and Brown could still be alive (but with injuries) if Wilson kept calmer. However, also part of that conclusion is that Wilson did nothing criminal in his actions. Manslaughter, murder 1, etc. None of those would apply. If we cannot say, for sure, that Brown, based on the evidence, was or was not charging Wilson, then we cannot criminally charge Wilson. We have to have what is called "beyond reasonable doubt" in order to get a conviction and we are definitely not beyond reasonable doubt. There is ample proof that Wilson was assaulted in his cab, there is ample proof that his gun did indeed go off in his cab and struck Wilson, and there is proof that Brown was not shot from behind. But none of that proof shows that Wilson committed criminal actions. Perhaps less than optimal. Perhaps poorly performing his duties? But not criminal.
As I've stated, Wilson should never be allowed to work in law enforcement the rest of his life.
I like this analysis. Very objective and informed 👆
Originally posted by dadudemon
I would add that his actions in the store and his actions with Wilson were both very stupid decisions and that lead to his death. But I also have the same conclusion as you do: he'd probably be alive if a better cop was in that same situation.
Oh yea, assaulting Wilson is his car was incredibly stupid. I'm of the fervent belief that Brown was high, causing his erratic behavior, and was grabbing wraps to smoke some more weed.
That being stated, I smoke sometimes and I've never become that irrational, but maybe they got stronger cheeb in Missouri
Originally posted by Lestov16
Oh yea, assaulting Wilson is his car was incredibly stupid. I'm of the fervent belief that Brown was high, causing his erratic behavior, and was grabbing wraps to smoke some more weed.That being stated, I smoke sometimes and I've never become that irrational, but maybe they got stronger cheeb in Missouri
That's what I concluded, as well. Brown did not seem to be in his right mind. I suspected drugs were involved, as well. Autopsy says just MJ was in his system.
http://nypost.com/2014/08/18/michael-brown-might-have-been-shot-with-his-hands-up-pathologist/
A smarter person than all of us might be able to tell us how in the f*ck pot could make someone become that aggressive and angry. It seems more like meth or PCP than pot. I'm positive inimalist would know this shit. Where is he when we need him?
Edt - Well, I guess it can make you angry and aggressive:
http://adai.washington.edu/marijuana/factsheets/aggression.htm
"However, sometimes when marijuana is used it can cause fear, anxiety, panic or paranoia, which can result in an aggressive outburst. For most people, once the effects of the drug wear off, their behavior gradually improves."
It may be possible that Brown was paranoid and aggressive due to his convenience store situation. He may have thought Wilson was on to him or something. I'm just taking a very ignorant stab in the dark to try and justify the seemingly illogical and crazed actions of Brown in this situation.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
If he was shot in the back where is your proof?You have yet to provide a shred of it.
No you dancing around it.
did you read my response to your prior post?
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Autopsy proves he was not shot in the back.Are you going to still assume he was?
Originally posted by Lestov16
Hmm.....OK I'll admit you got me on that one.Still, there is no 100% proof that Brown charged at Wilson. At again, even if he did, less lethal options were possible.
Just to clarify, my main issue with this whole thing has nothing to do with Brown (I thought he was a douchebag in that store) or racism (pretty sure events would have went down the same way regardless of the race of Brown or Wilson). My issue has to do with police professionalism and how much force they are allowed to exercise.
so what are you crying about?
Originally posted by dadudemon
It may be possible that Brown was paranoid and aggressive due to his convenience store situation. He may have thought Wilson was on to him or something. I'm just taking a very ignorant stab in the dark to try and justify the seemingly illogical and crazed actions of Brown in this situation.
Yeah, that's what I thought as well. He was erratic as shit in the store and then paranoid as shit when Wilson came driving along, and even more so when Wilson turned back to confront him about the robbery, which is why he assaulted him in the car. Both of those scenarios (Brown being a douche in the store and assaulting Wilson) show behavior that can really only be rationalized with drug use, as no person in their right mind would behave like that.
A 17 year old that big has a lot of hormones. Weed ****s with you, as does alcohol, as does a community of people who have a lot of behavioral problems. It's a concoction, authority figures like police officers often bring out the worst in them. I can see where Mike wouldn't be able to understand why he should be told what to do by an officer, he just lost control and took it too far and it would have ruined his life regardless of whether or not the officer chose to use deadly force. Mike Brown, like everyone else, wasn't so much a bad person, it was what happened in a split second.
Modern society is not equipped to do what it does. I've debated this in my singularity topics, my technocratic ideals, my libertarian philosophies, etc.
Originally posted by Time ImmemorialMy thrill-seeking is 90% in check when I'm sober, I might lose control in a certain situation, a very rare situation, but I'm trying to change that. I need to lose the unwarranted rage I have, it's not conducive to survival. I am a good survivor. Survival instinct affords temperament. I would avoid the military, avoid hostile situations, avoid confrontation, avoid situations that might bring out the worst in me.
I know that, now why were you not their rioting as well? 😂
Originally posted by psmith81992
YouTube videoDamn.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I posted the construction worker's eye-witness account which most closely matches with the forensic report. Though the construction worker reports that he thought Brown was shot from behind, we know from the autopsy that he wasn't. These were...what...warning shots that Wilson was firing? I suppose Brown got scared from those warning shots which is why he decided to turn around. I am just guessing.But, read that construction worker's eye-witness account. To me, since it does not contradict the autopsy, it corroborates why people thought Brown was shot from behind, and shows us how Wilson may have made the wrong decision (or right one), I am comfortable with concluding that Wilson probably got overly zealous with lethal force and should have kept a more level head in that situation. I do not think what Wilson did was criminal as he should have kept calmer and paid better attention to Brown.
Yes, Brown DID start walking towards Wilson AFTER he (Brown) stopped fleeing and turned around. That matches Wilson's story. The construction worker said Brown walked 25 feet towards Wilson. Walked. Not charged. Walked. But he walked those 25 feet with his hands up and it wasn't until Wilson started to shoot again that Brown dropped his hands. Wilson, imo, mistook that for Brown becoming more aggressive. To me, reality dictates that it was Brown dropping his arms because he was just f*cking shot in the arm. The construction worker is unsure if Brown was going to charge (or was trying to) or was just falling forward but Wilson assumed the later and ended Brown's life.
To me, the reasonable conclusion is that Wilson didn't have a level head in this situation and Brown could still be alive (but with injuries) if Wilson kept calmer. However, also part of that conclusion is that Wilson did nothing criminal in his actions. Manslaughter, murder 1, etc. None of those would apply. If we cannot say, for sure, that Brown, based on the evidence, was or was not charging Wilson, then we cannot criminally charge Wilson. We have to have what is called "beyond reasonable doubt" in order to get a conviction and we are definitely not beyond reasonable doubt. There is ample proof that Wilson was assaulted in his cab, there is ample proof that his gun did indeed go off in his cab and struck Wilson, and there is proof that Brown was not shot from behind. But none of that proof shows that Wilson committed criminal actions. Perhaps less than optimal. Perhaps poorly performing his duties? But not criminal.
As I've stated, Wilson should never be allowed to work in law enforcement the rest of his life.
That nothing is happening to Wilson sends the message to cops that it's okay to be a **** up, the badge will protect you.