Ferguson Riots

Started by Omega Vision74 pages

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Oh wait, We attacked Japan first..right...LHM

You sound like a self hating American liberal.

No Bardock is not responsible but he acts like he lives in a ivory tower in German and him and his country are not at fault for anything, ever. But blames America for everything.


You missed my point. I wasn't at all saying that these things made Americans incapable of making moral/ethical judgments. My point was that it's unfair to revoke someone else's right to complain/right to judge based on what others of their nationality have done in the past.

Well, except for cases where the current or recent generation did these things. For instance it's hypocritical (but still very much necessary) when America criticizes Russia for militarily intervening in Ukraine, and I recently got into a debate with a Serbian who was crticising America for what Americans did to Native Americans while conveniently forgetting that only 20 years ago Serbians and Bosnian Serbs were slaughtering Muslims in Bosnia. I think in those cases it becomes more muddy, but otherwise it's not fair to play the "Yeah but you...!" game.

Also, you're not using 'ivory tower' properly. I know I sound like a pedant at this point, but ivory tower refers to snobbishness in academia or when someone lords their superior education over someone else, it isn't about someone's perceived moral superiority.

I'm the ivory tower of the forum, bucko. crackers

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Oh wait, We attacked Japan first..right...LHM

You did attack first the american natives -also known as real americans 😈 - and a bunch of other people in modern times.

But we can all agree Hitler was worse since he attacked the most charming people of them all france

Originally posted by Bentley
You did attack first the american natives -also known as real americans 😈 - and a bunch of other people in modern times.

But we can all agree Hitler was worse since he attacked the most charming people of them all france

We're a lot worse than Hitler when you consider the scheme for Iraq, 2,000 Americans murdered by Americans, the economy destroyed for the sake of profiting the few American captains of industry from commercializing ourselves in third world countries and consolidating that 100 year oil supply.

I used Ivory Tower exactly how it was supposed to be used, Bucky..

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ivory%20tower

Originally posted by Oneness
We're a lot worse than Hitler when you consider the scheme for Iraq, 2,000 Americans murdered by Americans, the economy destroyed for the sake of profiting the few American captains of industry from commercializing ourselves in third world countries and consolidating that 100 year oil supply.

We have not touched a drop of Iraqi oil reserves.

America has the near complete wipe out of Native Americans, Slavery, and Jim Crow, which spanned 3 centuries. I think that more than holds it's own against the Holocaust of the 1940s.

You're not helping this conversation, TI.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
America has the near complete wipe out of Native Americans, Slavery, and Jim Crow, which spanned 3 centuries. I think that more than holds it's own against the Holocaust of the 1940s.

You're not helping this conversation, TI.

I'm a bit tired of Bardock playing point the finger. The reason he still has a country is cause we prevented Russia from taking Germany over. He should be thanking us for taking Hitler out and saving Germay. Not bashing us because we have problems.

I'm of the opinion he should be able to do both. Free Speech doesn't end at the ability to criticize someone who did you a solid.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I'm of the opinion he should be able to do both. Free Speech doesn't end at the ability to criticize someone who did you a solid.

He rusted my jimmies, what can I say?

I read a great profile about Angela Merkel in The New Yorker, which featured a paragraph somewhat related to our current discussion

"""
In a sense, German anti-Americanism is always waiting to be tapped. There’s a left-wing, anti-capitalist strain going back to the sixties, and a right-wing, anti-democratic version that’s even older. In the broad middle, where German politics plays out today, many Germans, especially older ones, once regarded the U.S. as the father of their democracy—a role that sets America up to disappoint. Peter Schneider, the novelist and journalist, expressed the attitude this way: “You have created a model of a savior, and now we find by looking at you that you are not perfect at all—much less, you are actually corrupt, you are terrible businessmen, you have no ideals anymore.” With the Iraq War, Guantánamo, drones, the unmet expectations of the Obama Presidency, and now spying, “you actually have acted against your own promises, and so we feel very deceived.”
"""

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/12/01/quiet-german

At any rate, I like a lot about the United States, and I dislike a lot about the United States. And I don't think your accusations of anti-Americanism regarding me are justified, TI. This whole thing is off topic though. This thread is about the Ferguson Riots and the shooting of Mike Brown, which happened in the USA, so that's what we've been discussing.

Originally posted by Bentley
You did attack first the american natives -also known as real americans 😈 - and a bunch of other people in modern times.

But we can all agree Hitler was worse since he attacked the most charming people of them all france

I guess you forgot about Napoleon😂

Originally posted by Bardock42
I read a great profile about Angela Merkel in The New Yorker, which featured a paragraph somewhat related to our current discussion

"""
In a sense, German anti-Americanism is always waiting to be tapped. There’s a left-wing, anti-capitalist strain going back to the sixties, and a right-wing, anti-democratic version that’s even older. In the broad middle, where German politics plays out today, many Germans, especially older ones, once regarded the U.S. as the father of their democracy—a role that sets America up to disappoint. Peter Schneider, the novelist and journalist, expressed the attitude this way: “You have created a model of a savior, and now we find by looking at you that you are not perfect at all—much less, you are actually corrupt, you are terrible businessmen, you have no ideals anymore.” With the Iraq War, Guantánamo, drones, the unmet expectations of the Obama Presidency, and now spying, “you actually have acted against your own promises, and so we feel very deceived.”
"""

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/12/01/quiet-german

At any rate, I like a lot about the United States, and I dislike a lot about the United States. And I don't think your accusations of anti-Americanism regarding me are justified, TI. This whole thing is off topic though. This thread is about the Ferguson Riots and the shooting of Mike Brown, which happened in the USA, so that's what we've been discussing.

Good post

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
We have not touched a drop of Iraqi oil reserves.
YouTube video

America is the root of all evil.

It's a monstrosity.

Of all of America's sins, this is the Gilded Age on steroids, it can be far more gilded because how ignorant Americans are and because of the secrecy of official transactions between rich people, and right-wing politicians who comprise the obsolete congress.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I guess you forgot about Napoleon😂

How could I? He's in Assassin's Creed 💃

Originally posted by Bardock42
The robbery is not irrelevant altogether. Just irrelevant to the shooting. Although the pro Darren Wilson side has used it to justify the shooting.

Issues with Darren Wilson's account:

1) He says Mike Brown kept punching and hitting, having the strength of Hulk Hogan, being like a demon, yet Darren Wilson has virtually no injuries at all. The photographs released from him at the hospital show at most that there is a mild reddening on his cheek, but who knows where that comes from. Definitely not 2 full on, undefended, punches to the jaw by Hulk Hogan powered demon as Wilson alleges.

2) Stopping to exchange Cigarillos and a chat.
In that scuffle Mike Brown also apparently pauses, hands cigarillos to his friend, Darren Wilson takes that opportunity of pause to do...nothing.

3)
Wilson says that Brown collapsed about 10 feet from him, after which Wilson returned to his car didn't go near or touch Brown, however there is photographic evidence, that he stood much closer over Mike Brown.

4)
Wilson at different times says that Mike Brown had his hands raised (as one would do when an officer tells them to) but also says that Brown reached for something in his waistband (even though he had nothing there). Which I think other eye witnesses do not corroborate.

5)
Most eye witnesses as far as I know say that Mike Brown walked, with his hands raised towards Wilson. Wilson alleges he charged him like a bull.

There's more articles talking about issues with his testimony in a broader context, like why is someone allowed to just wash himself and clean his gun unsupervised after shooting someone?

I'm not saying all the other accounts are flawless, just that Wilson's has flaws, and seems somewhat manufactured (handed cigarillos tying him to the crime reported, grabbing inside of his waistband as if to reach for a gun, when he doesn't have a gun). And I'm saying that the American public has been deprived of finding out the truth.

My issue with this whole thing is my believe that there was no fair trial to be had, because white police officers get special treatment in particular when their victims are black. I think every incident where someone ends up dead should be brought to a trial, and that this has not is just another blemish in a long history of racism, injustice and bias of the American "justice" system.

I had no idea that Wilson claimed any of those 5 things (I'll go through them, at the bottom of m post). Also, I didn't know that Wilson cleaned himself and his gun (it should be okay for him to clean himself after examined by a forensic investigator, however: that actually happened so this point of yours may be irrelevant). I don't understand why he would do that because that would only hurt him, not help him. Here's why: he would be washing blood or flesh off of him, from Brown. He'd be washing off the gun residue from his person. The only thing washing himself could do is make him look like he's trying to cover up something. Any person who had a modicum of forensic knowledge would know that it hurts him and doesn't help. What it looks like to an outsider is one of two things:

1. He's an idiot and further proved he's an incompetent cop.
2. he knew he was guilty of something and thought he was properly covering his tracks but...#1 still applies in this scenario, too.

I think it is #1, all the way. However, that does not match up with the evidence (the gun cleaning stuff) because a forensic investigator swabbed the gun and found Brown's DNA on it. "...the subsequent DNA report found Mr. Brown’s genetic material on Officer Wilson’s Sig Sauer pistol. Similarly, DNA from Mr. Brown was also found on the officer’s uniform pants and shirt."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-grand-jury-weighed-mass-of-evidence-much-of-it-conflicting.html?_r=0

So it doesn't matter that Wilson cleaned himself or his gun because it was already "swabbed" by a forensic investigator. This is similar to what happens in your home: you eventually get to clean up your house after the forensic folks are done doing their thang.

Also, here is the photo of his punched face:

Looks like a good clean punch to his face, the day after. I do not like that you imply he hurt himself to make it look he was attacked, however. You're skirting on the edge of tinfoil hat conspiracy theory levels of speculation. I talk more about the face-punching in #1, below.

When the 60 witnesses had varying testimonies where, "...witness testimony revealed an array of variations, some subtle and some flatly contradictory...", I do not see how you can reject some key pieces of Wilson's account while also accepting other eye-witness accounts as being correct. If you have to believe and reject one testimony over another, you need to select the one or some that most closely fits the evidence (which is why I singled out the onlooking-construction worker. For example, his testimony accounts for why some people thought Brown was shot in the back while also explaining why Wilson may have mistook Brown for charging...I thought it did well to represent the evidence and reconciled the varying eye-witness accounts).

To address your points, directly, with links where applicable:

1. I don't remember any of Wilson's accounts saying that Brown kept punching and hitting him. I did post a link to Wilson's account that stated he decided to pull out his gun after getting punched, twice. Wilson did say Brown kept trying to hit him and even grazed his person a few times, but I see no direct quote, beyond the 2 punch statement, that said Brown kept repeatedly punching Wilson.

2. I find this to be largely irrelevant. Johnson was at Brown's side at the time. It would have taken, what, 2 seconds, at the most to hand his package over to Johnson? That's just enough time for Wilson to look around his cab, think about his situation, and continue to get assaulted, lol. According to Wilson, when Brown handed Johnson those things, Wilson grabbed Brown's arm (meaning, this point of yours is not only irrelevant, it is wrong). "...That was when Brown turned to his left and handed Johnson several packs of the stolen cigarillos he had been holding. Wilson then grabbed Brown's right arm trying to get control, but Brown hit him in the face..."

Found under the wiki entry for Wilson's account:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#Darren_Wilson.27s_interview_and_testimony

3. This is more of a subjective label than something that is debate-worthy. I saw that same photo. If that was immediately after he shot Brown, that is understandable. If that was later, then, yes, he didn't really go near the body after he shot him. And the subjective part of "near" could be "any closer than 2 feet." I consider "near" to be closer than 2 feet from my face or hands. If someone is "near" me, they are within that 2-foot zone.

4. Two or three eye-witnesses said he clutched his abdomen or something...they mistook it for Brown grabbing his gut because he had been shot in the gut (iirc). But that could have been what Wilson was talking about. At that point, Wilson was already panicking, imo. He could very well think Brown was reaching for an imaginary waist-band gun. But, other eye-witness accounts do not have the "clutching" part. The most reliable one I saw never mentioned that. However, I think you make the absolute best point, here, regarding Wilson's account having a problem. Wilson claims that his hand was in his waistband pretty much the whole time after turning around. The whole time. Even when he shot him through the head and Brown fell forward, Wilson still claimed his (Brown's) hand was in his waistband. I cannot find another eye-witness that corroborates that. I find many that contradict it. IMO, this is Wilson trying to justify the shooting.

5. This is a good criticism, too. Here is a breakdown of where people fall (no pun intended, holy shit, no damn pun intended: too son) on the rushing thing:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/ferguson-witnesses/

It looks like he has bad skin/acne. If I had punched him twice, his head would have exploded.

I do have a question: if Brown punched Wilson in the face while Wilson was sitting in his police car, how is the "damage" on the right side of his face? We're a left-hand drive country, so the blows coming into the car from the outside would have been to Wilson's left and left-front.

I'd use my extensive MS Paint skills to draw a superbly detailed picture for you all showing the scenario, but I am at work right now

Originally posted by Robtard
If I had punched him twice, his head would have exploded.
WAAAAHHHT!?

😂 😂 😂

Originally posted by Robtard
It looks like he has bad skin/acne. If I had punched him twice, his head would have exploded.

I do have a question: if Brown punched Wilson in the face while Wilson was sitting in his police car, how is the "damage" on the right side of his face? We're a left-hand drive country, so the blows coming into the car from the outside would have been to Wilson's left and left-front.

I'd use my extensive MS Paint skills to draw a superbly detailed picture for you all showing the scenario, but I am at work right now

I know exactly what you're talking about. I assume he was looking at Brown so his head was turned towards the driver door (left of the car, if you're sitting in the car). There's much more room to swing, if we pretend to be Brown for a moment, with your left hand. So Brown may have gotten off one clean punch with his left hand while Wilson was facing Brown in their struggle.

I should note that I have been punched pretty hard in the face, just in practice, and my face doesn't bruise like that. He's either a delicate peach or he got punched pretty hard. There is another photo floating around that shows that that side of his face is a bit swollen.

Also, Darren Wilson looks very much out of shape and he's...uh...he looks weak as hell:

He has shoulders like you say Quan has.

So now Brown not only leaned inside the car, but leaned across from the passenger side to pick a fight?

Story sounds more and more BS, to be honest