Themistocles versus Leonidas

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're not understanding something... The immortals Them killed who were slicing through Greeks... Those greeks weren't Spartan Hoplites... They were Athenians and Thebans and other tribes. So, that isn't nearly as impressive as slicing through Spartans. That's the first thing you don't seem to get.

I understand perfectly well. But by your own logic, all the enemies the Spartans sliced through were nameless Persians, so none of their feats are impressive either. And exactly when did the Uber Immortal, Leonidas' toughest opponent, "slice" through Spartans? He kicked Dilios and knocked another no-name Spartan out of the way. The rest of the time he was engaged with Leonidas. People wank the fact that they are Spartans, while totally ignoring their actual individual combat feats, way too much.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Second, you keep claiming PIS for the Uber immortal but that is just a lame excuse. I could claim it was PIS for Leo to even engage him at all... When he was fighting one greek Leo was just standing there as the uber had his back to him... he could impaled him right there... Or thrown a spear at him as soon as he attacked. I could say all those things but who cares. All that matters is... leo defeated him in battle. Also, how can you say the Uber was dominating him... Leo sliced his leg and stuck a sword in his arm before even being touched. I think you need to rewatch the scene in question. Him beating that immortal was more impressive than Them slicing though some immortals who beat a bunch of no name greeks. It really isn't close actually

Leonidas was the one who had his back to the Uber Immortal, which is why Dilios had to pull him down so that he didn't get decapitated by an axe throw. And yes he was losing badly, because his hits were having zero effect on the Uber Immortal. He was getting thrown around and was in a terrible position, when the Uber Immortal could have easily killed him, but then chose to act stupid instead. Him stopping his offensive to growl is a far greater act of PIS than Leonidas engaging him in battle, like he had been doing to every one of his opponents throughout the entire film. Leonidas engaging the Uber Immortal is not PIS. The Uber Immortal stopping to act like an idiot, when he had a clear advantage, is PIS. That's the definition of PIS. When a character suddenly acts stupid for the sake of the plot.

And again, front line Immortal troops were overwhelming individual Spartans (the guys you keep going on about how impressive it is to kill) in 2s, 3s and 4s, where Themistocles steamrolled through Artemisia's personal Immortal troops. Unless you want to suggest that she, one of Xerxes' greatest and most important commanders, would have been assigned poorer/weaker troops than standard Immortal soldiers.

And yet AGAIN, the Uber Immortal is VISIBLY slower and less skilled than the Immortals Themistocles fought, or Artemisia for that matter. Themistocles fought multiple individuals who ALL are visibly faster and have way better fighting technique than the Uber Immortal. And none of them stopped their offensive to growl at him, leaving themselves open to get killed. But keep ignoring that GLARING fact.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Third, I understand perfectly where we are and you I get what you are arguing and why. What I'm saying is.. When two people are close to each other in a movie setting... which these two seem to be.. I would much prefer to go with somebody who I ACTUALLY know would shit stomp the other in real life. That's just me I guess.

The point is still that their RL counterparts do not feature here. What you are doing is trying to apply RL constraints of real life people, on movie character that are only loosely based on them. The 300 version of Leonidas is based off the comic. Themistocles is based off of the yet to be released comic, Xerxes. Both are fictional stories, loosely based on the Persian invasion of Greece, written by Frank Miller. And yeah, it really is only you who thinks that because RL Leonidas > RL Themistocles, the same is true of their movie versions.

Why are you guys comparing Spartans to Theo's men? This is Theo vs Leo, one on one combat.

In order to compare who was better, one has to determine who had tougher opponents.

Well Kurupt keeps going on about how the faster and more skilled Immortals are less impressive because they didn't "slice" through Spartans, but other Greek soldiers instead. He is also fabricating things. The Uber Immortal, at no point, is fighting Greeks with his back to Leonidas. Basically the polar opposite is true. After Leonidas saved Dilios' life, he has his back turned and then Dilios saves him from an axe throw. That's when both of them first genuinely become aware of the Uber Immortal.

The Uber Immortal also doesn't actually kill a single Spartan (or any Greek for that matter) throughout his entire onscreen appearance. He tries to strike Dilios, who blocks his hit, and then he kicks him. He then engages Leonidas for a bit and disarms him of his spear, then beats him back with blows to his shield. Another random Spartan charges the Uber Immortal and gets knocked to the ground. Then the Uber Immortal goes back to fighting Leonidas, knocks him around, disarms him of his sword and gets him in a mount. Then, like a dumbass, suddenly decides that using weapons, or even just his hands for that matter, is no longer a good idea, and spends several seconds growling at Leonidas, throwing away the clear advantage he had and leaving himself open to attack.

Kurupt then tries to claim that that isn't an example of PIS, and tries to claim that Leonidas not throwing his spear at the Uber Immortal is PIS. Problem is that the Uber Immortal was only a few meters away at the time that they first properly come face to face. Fact is, actually throwing his spear would have been a perfect example of PIS. Any person who has extensive knowledge and experience with knife, sword, spear etc. fighting will tell you that, unless your opponent has a ranged weapon, or you are 100% totally sure that your throw will kill them, willingly disarming yourself of your most far reaching weapon, in the middle of a busy battlefield, is the absolute most stupid thing you can do. Leonidas trying to engage the Uber Immortal in close range, with his spear, was the most tactically sound thing he could do in a one-on-one fight.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well Kurupt keeps going on about how the faster and more skilled Immortals are less impressive because they didn't "slice" through Spartans, but other Greek soldiers instead. He is also fabricating things. The Uber Immortal, at no point, is fighting Greeks with his back to Leonidas. Basically the polar opposite is true. After Leonidas saved Dilios' life, he has his back turned and then Dilios saves him from an axe throw. That's when both of them first genuinely become aware of the Uber Immortal.

The Uber Immortal also doesn't actually kill a single Spartan (or any Greek for that matter) throughout his entire onscreen appearance. He tries to strike Dilios, who blocks his hit, and then he kicks him. He then engages Leonidas for a bit and disarms him of his spear, then beats him back with blows to his shield. Another random Spartan charges the Uber Immortal and gets knocked to the ground. Then the Uber Immortal goes back to fighting Leonidas, knocks him around, disarms him of his sword and gets him in a mount. Then, like a dumbass, suddenly decides that using weapons, or even just his hands for that matter, is no longer a good idea, and spends several seconds growling at Leonidas, throwing away the clear advantage he had and leaving himself open to attack.

Kurupt then tries to claim that that isn't an example of PIS, and tries to claim that Leonidas not throwing his spear at the Uber Immortal is PIS. Problem is that the Uber Immortal was only a few meters away at the time that they first properly come face to face. Fact is, actually throwing his spear would have been a perfect example of PIS. Any person who has extensive knowledge and experience with knife, sword, spear etc. fighting will tell you that, unless your opponent has a ranged weapon, or you are 100% totally sure that your throw will kill them, willingly disarming yourself of your most far reaching weapon, in the middle of a busy battlefield, is the absolute most stupid thing you can do. Leonidas trying to engage the Uber Immortal in close range, with his spear, was the most tactically sound thing he could do in a one-on-one fight.

Did you even watch the scene? WATCH IT AGAIN!!! After the failed axe throw... The uber immortal has his back to Leo for a split second as LEO IS FACING HIM AS HE'S RISING.. He did have his back to him for a brief period of time JUST as I claimed. It seems you literally have no idea about Spartans or Greeks in general I see. Do you comprehend that the greeks the immortals were slicing through WEREN'T SPARTAN HOPLITES? You understand they are superior to the Thebans and Athenians the immortals were slicing through? i'm generally curious if you get this point? The immortals killed some Spartans sure.. but they were also routed with relative ease. You throwing out some line like... Ohhh the Spartans were overwhelmed at times by numbers is being disingenuous to what actually occurred. The immortals outnumbered the Spartans and Greek by a significant number and were routed. Some occasional Spartans getting killed doesn't change that one bit.

Wait are you claiming RL Leo isn't greater than RL Them? you said I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THIS? If you don't agree then just say so, then I can just ignore you from here forward before I run the risk of losing brain cells talking with you. There is ZERO doubt at all that RL Leo would trounce Them in battle. That shouldn't even be a question if you understand and have read greek history. If you haven't, fine, but don't say I'm the only one as if I'm wrong. Just say you're not educated on the subject and we can move forward.

Lastly, you act like That Uber immortal wouldn't have sliced through the immortals Them went through. He absolutely would have with ease. So Them beating some no name immortals who in turn beat no name NON Spartan greeks isn't nearly as impressive. Leo BEAT that Immortal one v one. Period, end of discussion. That was much more impressive than THem beating some immortals. You act like the blows he landed don't count because they didn't stop the uber.. Ummm WTF... Of course they count... he was landing blows that would've killed most others... It just so happens the uber immortal has crazy durability... VASTLY superior to anybody Them beat and it's not even close.

Originally posted by Lestov16
In order to compare who was better, one has to determine who had tougher opponents.

Only they didn't

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
They had the same opponents......

I don't recall the Athenians taking on ogres, charging battle rhinos, super-massive war elephants, voodoo mother****ers tossing firebombs or a lobby of arrows that literally blocked out the sun, brah.

Amazing how people just assume all greats were the same caliber of opponents

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Did you even watch the scene? WATCH IT AGAIN!!! After the failed axe throw... The uber immortal has his back to Leo for a split second as LEO IS FACING HIM AS HE'S RISING.. He did have his back to him for a brief period of time JUST as I claimed. It seems you literally have no idea about Spartans or Greeks in general I see. Do you comprehend that the greeks the immortals were slicing through WEREN'T SPARTAN HOPLITES? You understand they are superior to the Thebans and Athenians the immortals were slicing through? i'm generally curious if you get this point? The immortals killed some Spartans sure.. but they were also routed with relative ease. You throwing out some line like... Ohhh the Spartans were overwhelmed at times by numbers is being disingenuous to what actually occurred. The immortals outnumbered the Spartans and Greek by a significant number and were routed. Some occasional Spartans getting killed doesn't change that one bit.

You mean after the Uber Immortal kicked Dilios (NOT after the axe throw) and Leonidas was still getting back up to a proper fighting position? He wasn't even in range, and by the time he was in a position to thrust, the Uber Immortal was already facing him. So claiming he could have one-shot killed the Uber Immortal within a split second, at an awkward range and from an awkward position, is reaching on your part. And I am well aware of the difference between the various Greek factions and fully get what you are implying. You are the one who is completely failing to grasp what I am saying.

The point I am making is that an individual Spartan can be overwhelmed by a handful of Immortals. Themistocles faced a group of Immortals and defeated them with ease. Outnumbered, individual Spartans were brought down by Immortals. Outnumbered, Themistocles shitstomped Immortals. I cannot understand how you are unable to get this.

And in anyways, your rant about slicing through Spartans is also actually pointless, as the Uber Immortal NEVER did this. He doesn't kill a single Spartan. Not one. So even if the Immortals Themistocles faced never killed Spartans, neither did the Uber Immortal. They, however, do visibly display greater speed and skill than he does. Yet you keep ignoring this, and hash out the same old tired point that their opponents weren't Spartans.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Wait are you claiming RL Leo isn't greater than RL Them? you said I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THIS? If you don't agree then just say so, then I can just ignore you from here forward before I run the risk of losing brain cells talking with you. There is ZERO doubt at all that RL Leo would trounce Them in battle. That shouldn't even be a question if you understand and have read greek history. If you haven't, fine, but don't say I'm the only one as if I'm wrong. Just say you're not educated on the subject and we can move forward.

Massive reading comprehension failure on your part, which seems to be consistent with the rest of your posts. I have posted multiple times that RL Leonidas > RL Themistocles, but that it doesn't matter in this fight. I said that you are the only one that thinks that because RL Leonidas > to RL Themistocles, the same holds true for their MOVIE counterparts. I really don't know why I keep bothering, because it is clear that you are not reading my posts properly before replying.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Lastly, you act like That Uber immortal wouldn't have sliced through the immortals Them went through. He absolutely would have with ease. So Them beating some no name immortals who in turn beat no name NON Spartan greeks isn't nearly as impressive. Leo BEAT that Immortal one v one. Period, end of discussion. That was much more impressive than THem beating some immortals. You act like the blows he landed don't count because they didn't stop the uber.. Ummm WTF... Of course they count... he was landing blows that would've killed most others... It just so happens the uber immortal has crazy durability... VASTLY superior to anybody Them beat and it's not even close.

That is a completely baseless claim on your part. Prove that the Uber Immortal can slice through multiple opponents coming at him from various directions at the same time, all of whom are faster and more skilled than he is. He would have been able to kill some of them but, based on his shown speed and skill compared to theirs, he would have ended up skewered eventually.

Also... landing blows that would have killed most others? What a joke. Artemisia also gives Themistocles a leg cut during their fight. Does he keel over and die? No, it doesn't even slow him down. The only blow Leonidas landed, before the spear tip thrust, that would have seriously hampered anyone else, is the sword through the arm, and that would not have been fatal either.

The Uber Immortal's durability didn't help him for shit when his head got removed. Nor would it have helped him if one of his limbs got severed (a tactic Themistocles uses on multiple occasions against slower opponents).

But the main problem with your argument is that you are ignoring what we visibly see on screen, and wank the Spartans purely because they are Spartans. You ignore the fact that we visibly see that the Immortals Themistocles faces are faster and more skilled than the Uber Immortal. You ignore the fact that Leonidas struggled and nearly got killed in the process, and needed some stupidity on the part of the Uber Immortal to win, where as Themistocles effortlessly defeated the multiple Immortals he faced. You ignore the fact that we see Spartans fall under similar circumstances. You ignore the fact that he also beat Artemisia, who is also way faster and more skilled than the Uber Immortal.

Your whole argument is based on the fact that some people are Spartans and some people aren't, instead of looking at their actual individual onscreen combat feats. Spartans fighting as a group doesn't matter one single bit in this thread. They are renowned for fighting as a unit, and in a matchup between Leonidas and his 300 vs Themistocles and 300 of his men, the Spartans would stomp. But this is NOT that match. This is a one-on-one matchup between Themistocles and Leonidas. As a group, the Spartans display more martial skill than Themistocles and his men. Individually, they do not.

Originally posted by Robtard
I don't recall the Athenians taking on ogres, charging battle rhinos, super-massive war elephants, voodoo mother****ers tossing firebombs or a lobby of arrows that literally blocked out the sun, brah.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
All of which have nothing to do with Theo and Leo in a 1v1. We might as well ask if the Athenians can duplicate the Spartan feats, and vice versa.

And 1v1 Leonidas goes through like a steam-engine set at full boil. Choo-choooooo!

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You mean after the Uber Immortal kicked Dilios (NOT after the axe throw) and Leonidas was still getting back up to a proper fighting position? He wasn't even in range, and by the time he was in a position to thrust, the Uber Immortal was already facing him. So claiming he could have one-shot killed the Uber Immortal within a split second, at an awkward range and from an awkward position, is reaching on your part. And I am well aware of the difference between the various Greek factions and fully get what you are implying. You are the one who is completely failing to grasp what I am saying.

The point I am making is that an individual Spartan can be overwhelmed by a handful of Immortals. Themistocles faced a group of Immortals and defeated them with ease. Outnumbered, individual Spartans were brought down by Immortals. Outnumbered, Themistocles shitstomped Immortals. I cannot understand how you are unable to get this.

And in anyways, your rant about slicing through Spartans is also actually pointless, as the Uber Immortal NEVER did this. He doesn't kill a single Spartan. Not one. So even if the Immortals Themistocles faced never killed Spartans, neither did the Uber Immortal. They, however, do visibly display greater speed and skill than he does. Yet you keep ignoring this, and hash out the same old tired point that their opponents weren't Spartans.

Massive reading comprehension failure on your part, which seems to be consistent with the rest of your posts. I have posted multiple times that RL Leonidas > RL Themistocles, but that it doesn't matter in this fight. I said that you are the only one that thinks that because RL Leonidas > to RL Themistocles, the same holds true for their MOVIE counterparts. I really don't know why I keep bothering, because it is clear that you are not reading my posts properly before replying.

That is a completely baseless claim on your part. Prove that the Uber Immortal can slice through multiple opponents coming at him from various directions at the same time, all of whom are faster and more skilled than he is. He would have been able to kill some of them but, based on his shown speed and skill compared to theirs, he would have ended up skewered eventually.

Also... landing blows that would have killed most others? What a joke. Artemisia also gives Themistocles a leg cut during their fight. Does he keel over and die? No, it doesn't even slow him down. The only blow Leonidas landed, before the spear tip thrust, that would have seriously hampered anyone else, is the sword through the arm, and that would not have been fatal either.

The Uber Immortal's durability didn't help him for shit when his head got removed. Nor would it have helped him if one of his limbs got severed (a tactic Themistocles uses on multiple occasions against slower opponents).

But the main problem with your argument is that you are ignoring what we visibly see on screen, and wank the Spartans purely because they are Spartans. You ignore the fact that we visibly see that the Immortals Themistocles faces are faster and more skilled than the Uber Immortal. You ignore the fact that Leonidas struggled and nearly got killed in the process, and needed some stupidity on the part of the Uber Immortal to win, where as Themistocles effortlessly defeated the multiple Immortals he faced. You ignore the fact that we see Spartans fall under similar circumstances. You ignore the fact that he also beat Artemisia, who is also way faster and more skilled than the Uber Immortal.

Your whole argument is based on the fact that some people are Spartans and some people aren't, instead of looking at their actual individual onscreen combat feats. Spartans fighting as a group doesn't matter one single bit in this thread. They are renowned for fighting as a unit, and in a matchup between Leonidas and his 300 vs Themistocles and 300 of his men, the Spartans would stomp. But this is NOT that match. This is a one-on-one matchup between Themistocles and Leonidas. As a group, the Spartans display more martial skill than Themistocles and his men. Individually, they do not.

He rose slowly to engage the Uber immortal in battle.. If he wanted to get off to a good start.. Why not rise quickly and impale him from behind while he had the chance? I never said it would be a killing blow.. In all likelihood it wouldn't with the durability shown by the uber... but the point is.. that was a stupid move on his part and according to you.. stupid moves means we can claim PIS.

So you will continue to be disingenuous then? The Spartans ROUTED the immortals in one v multiple immortals in battle. They weren't in their Phalanx formation when they fought the immortals they were fighting them one vs. many from all angles...Which you seem to splurge over. That is EXACTLY how very few Spartans ROUTED thousands of immortals. Did you even watch the movie? Some of them getting killed doesn't take away from the fact that most lived and most were engaging multiple immortals at the same time. Please don't belabor this point again and just concede it.

Why are you overly impressed with her "immortal guards" as if they were something special. You do realize the immortals the Spartan killed with the KING GOD's personal guard to. Once you see the movie again and listen for that line where this is confirmed.. ask yourself this... Would The King God have the best of the best immortals or would his general? Common sense thus tells us the Spartan ROUTED a superior group of immortals while vastly outnumbered. Unless of course you wanna believe the Rule of Persia who was PERSONALLY there in Greece decided to leave his best immortal guards behind with one of his generals. I sincerely hope you're not implying that.

I need to prove something that is clearly presented in the movie now? They presented the uber immortal as this super bad ass monster of man who is incredibly strong and durable is just that... a bad ass who is incredible strong and durable? Do I also need to prove the earth is round? The clear presentation of the movie is proof. Yes, that uber immortal would've routed those immortals that attacked Them... and if you disagree.. well the director slapping you in the face with clear things doesn't work for you I guess.

A sword through the arm wouldn't have been fatal in ancient warfare? Ummm it VERY WELL could've been fatal and easily so. There can be no disagreement about that. To say nothing of the spear through the eye.. which you seem to think would've been. That is two blows that could've been fatal to most men that the uber immortal basically laughed off with ease. I'd say his durability was pretty damn uber wouldn't you?

Originally posted by Robtard
And 1v1 Leonidas goes through like a steam-engine set at full boil. Choo-choooooo!

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Nah.

Cho-chooooo

Cho-Choooooo

Quanchi mad.

And this is news?

It is always implied.

Themis all day