Dcnu Power Rankings: Cis Off

Originally posted by abhilegend
And the combination was using outside powers to do something that's not in their own power.

Nope, we're clear that it was being generated by them. They become what they are because of A) fusing together and B) the amount of times they time-traveled which led to their body's naturally producing tachyons.

Tachyon power up is not their own power.

It is and it is literally stated, they were producing it as in making it as in it was literally coming from them.

Yet, apparently statements only matter when they serve your bias towards Superman.

Its not their own power. Simple as that. Lobdell routinely said that Superman was the most powerful being on planet.

So, that statement matters in the face of characters whose feats far exceed Superman's even though Kal-El has not once altered time-lines to his whims or created pocket universe.

Nope, still more powerful because "lol Lobdell." No there is something important when it comes to to debates and that's the death of the author.

The mechanic of it and not the literal death of author.

Just read H'el on earth and Return of Krypton and find out that. The writer himself didn't consider Superboy lower than Superman.

Not only have I read them I have also made a detailed respect thread for Superboy not only noting the feats but the entire context of the issues he is in.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=999256

Don't act like I don't know anything about Superboy when I wasted well over several dozen hours cataloging his appearances.

In fact Superboy being more powerful than Superboy is in itself contradictory as explained by Harvest.

Don't know what you're talking about but what I do remember is Harvest stating that Kon-El has showed the potential to dwarf his adopted son Jon Kent's power.

Superboy #19

http://i.imgur.com/KkgvIC4.jpg

"only to learn under the threat of death, the creature showed me a glimpse of power that dwarfed my adopted son's own."

Just recently in Doomed, Superman has been stated to be the most powerful being in galaxy three times. That carries more weight than random feats with random power ups.

More statements and no feats to actually back them up why I am not surprised?

Oh, and another thing abhilegend I have a another nice little scan to show you since you like statements by Lobdell so much.

Superman #25

http://i.imgur.com/eBrYMGz.jpg

"A clone of a kryptonian, a human, and singular entity in all of time and space."

"Given time his mind and body would be without limit."

It's Superboy and not Superman who is specified as eventually having no limits in body or mind. While Superman is specified to change the course of history, and Supergirl's rage would consume worlds possibly implying that she might become a villain later on.

Guess who wrote and drew Superman #25.

http://i.imgur.com/asTHi5r.jpg

Scott Lobdell and Kenneth Rocafort.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Nope, we're clear that it was being generated by them.

More statements and no feats to actually back them up why I am not surprised?

Originally posted by Iskandar
Oh, and another thing abhilegend I have a another nice little scan to show you since you like statements by Lobdell so much.

Superman #25

http://i.imgur.com/eBrYMGz.jpg

"A clone of a kryptonian, a human, and singular entity in all of time and space."

Guess who wrote and drew Superman #25.

http://i.imgur.com/asTHi5r.jpg

Scott Lobdell and Kenneth Rocafort.

http://i.imgur.com/4nGh91j.jpg

I can literally post a dozen examples of Superman being described as the most powerful being on earth from Lobdell's run only. You only have a vague statement from a writer who repeatedly stated that Superman was the most powerful being on earth. And some universe creating/timelines altering which according to Lobdell was due to decisions rather than actual powers. That's why H'el saving krypton was having omniverse in danger. That doesn't makes H'el omniversal being.

😬

Originally posted by abhilegend
Due to the excessive time travel. Not by their own powers. The second thing eliminates all prospects of being their own powers.

If a person derives their powers from an event that changes their bodies so they naturally produce tachyons. It's their own power at that point.

What you're doing is the equivalent of saying any of Spiderman's powers are not his powers but the radioactive spider's who bit him because that's the event that changed him.

Due to an outside phenomena aka time travel. Oh really?

Yes, really. You're blatantly ignoring what a character has done, and what we're seeing them do.

Superman doesn't time travels either. Animal man has created universes, Vixen has done that too. That doesn't mean they are even on the level of Superman.

...

What?

Really? Tell me more about that.

"Death of the Author is a concept from literary criticism which holds that an author's intentions and biographical facts (the author's politics, religion, etc) should hold no weight when coming to an interpretation of his or her writing; that is, that a writer's interpretation of his own work is no more valid than the interpretations of any of the readers."

"Intentions are one thing. What was actually accomplished might be something very different."

"The logic is fairly simple: Books are meant to be read, not written, and so the ways readers interpret them are more important and "real" than the ways writers write them. There are also the more practical facts that a lot of authors are not available or not willing to comment on their intentions, and even when they are, artists don't always make choices for reasons that make sense or are easily explained to others — or, in some cases, even to themselves."

Just for starters.

Lobdell has died?

No, I clarified that it has nothing to do with literal death of an author.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor

It is a literally mechanic used in scrutinizing a person's works. I hate linking TV tropes but it defines it well.

Potential=/=power.

I was using that as an example for why statements are so silly to use in the first place. They're vague, they're broad, and they're thrown out there with no consideration for literally everything in DC.

Mostly I just posted it to spite you and use your own fallacious tactics against you.

And that has as much value as any given talk of potential. Aka zero.

I agree completely statements pale in comparison to actual feats. Not because you think this statement is too vague or some nonsense as it is as viable as any of those Superman statements you mentioned. This is just you and your double standards here.

What matters is that Kon-El actually beats the ever living shit out of Jon Kent proving his superiority in Teen Titans Annual #2.

http://i.imgur.com/Fz2s9hl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wa60peH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FqsOF3Y.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Yfe83EW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/31F5Wgk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ErhA0rP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4pSuLQ6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FzWDSuB.jpg

The only reason Kon didn't kill Jon was because before he could do so the Oracle teleported him away to help save the omniverse in Krypton Returns.

Feats? Superman has like several in last month only.

Unless Superman suddenly develops feats of universal scale he is not a contender against the fused Kon-El/Jon Kent.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nothing basically. Here is an actual statement by Lobdell.

http://i.imgur.com/j4Q9nWc.jpg

Which you pilfered from my thread on NF. You didn't even change the imgur link at all.

"The most powerful man on earth." Superboy was in that comic too.

Yes, and that statement is so utterly absolute in spite of any and all feats.

Yes, that was sarcasm just so you know. Statements especially broad ones like this one prove nothing. It only works if you play favorites and ignore all the other statements and feats for every other man on earth.

Really? C'mon.

No, no, no, no don't give me that "really come on" nonsense. This is no different. I could say from this statement Kon-El by himself is eventually going to become the most powerful being on the planet, and have limitless power at his disposal.

If I debated like you do which I don't. So, I won't say that.

Statements that are this broad are not meant to be taken seriously. If you do you are in fact showing favoritism. You need to ignore every other writer excluding Lobdell. Basically, treat Scott Lobdell as the all knowing god of DC. Pretend that all of those other characters on earth, the men in particular don't have their own similar statements regarding their abilities by different writers.

Finally you need dismiss all feats as unusable if they prove those statements regarding Superman wrong. For instance a character, who is a man and of earth, being able to beat Superman is automatically PIS. Despite whether that character may have superior feats in comparison to Superman, and their own little claims in regards to their place in the universe.

It's like the very definition of plugging your ears up with wax, and then refusing to listen to any other evidence other than what you like to listen to.

Superman has been repeatedly stated to be the most powerful being on earth.

Guess who wrote Superman 20?

http://i.imgur.com/4nGh91j.jpg[QUOTE]

What is this even supposed to mean I am just seeing a giant headed Superman looking like his head is about to explode.

Hector Hammond is the one saying that Superman is the strongest creature on earth this is not even Scott Lobdell. At least mine came from the narration itself. Yours is coming from a character's dialogue which is even more obviously subject to scrutiny than narration is.

[QUOTE]I can literally post a dozen examples of Superman being described as the most powerful being on earth from Lobdell's run only.

It doesn't matter how many statements you actually have if you have nothing to back them up. No evidence, no feat, no nothing. Just hype.

You only have a vague statement from a writer who repeatedly stated that Superman was the most powerful being on earth.

Who gives a particular damn if Superman is called the most powerful boyscout on earth, if there's nothing actually proving he is most powerful boyscout on earth.

And some universe creating/timelines altering which according to Lobdell was due to decisions rather than actual powers.

Who gives a damn what Scott Lobdell thinks what happened in Superboy #33. He is not even the writer for that issue. Aaron Kuder is the actual writer for when Kon-El and Jon Kent fused together.

That's why H'el saving krypton was having omniverse in danger. That doesn't makes H'el omniversal being.

Are you really this disingenuous H'el traveled through time, and we clearly see H'el travel through time to do this. What we see Kon-El/Jon Kent do is on but a whim warp reality and create pocket universes.

It's completely freaking different. It's like comparing a chocolate cake to a chicken salad.

Originally posted by Iskandar
If a person derives their powers from an event that changes their bodies so they naturally produce tachyons. It's their own power at that point.

Unless Superman suddenly develops feats of universal scale he is not a contender against the fused Kon-El/Jon Kent.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Animal man and 2 other morphogenetic field users create a universe.

😂

And they did it under their own power. These random feats mean really nothing.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Which you pilfered from my thread on NF. You didn't even change the imgur link at all.

It's completely freaking different. It's like comparing a chocolate cake to a chicken salad.

Iskandar

Welcome to The House of El!

Iskandar, are you referring to the Pcket-Universe and bestowing powers during the paradox arc? If so, wasn't Kon in a special dimension or place, or his head, where all this happened? Can you post the scan where Superboy returns? Because outside of this paradoxon he never displayed those powers because in the normal reality he can't.

Superman has far superior feats, strength, speed and durability. Maybe Superboy will grown as powerful one day to be his equal.
Right now IIRC his best feats are vague because they happened in a dimension or his head, where multiple Superboys existed and created a paradox of realities, a place where everything is possible.

^Never mind, found it in Galans ownange thread.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19703115/2014-08-13_07-41-47_-_Superboy_2011-_034-019.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19703116/2014-08-13_07-41-47_-_Superboy_2011-_034-020.jpg.html

Those events that happened in the pocket universe, were not as good as it sounded at first, if they happened at all the way some interpreted it. Let's see what happens in the main real Universe, not Kons head.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^Never mind, found it in Galans ownange thread.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19703115/2014-08-13_07-41-47_-_Superboy_2011-_034-019.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19703116/2014-08-13_07-41-47_-_Superboy_2011-_034-020.jpg.html

Which doesn't mean anything, and the narration even argues against the events "not happening" at the very end saying that "to argue against that, there are two bits of evidence... One... Jon really is gone. And two..."

"Kon really is back."

The narration isn't saying the event didn't happen. It's saying it did and argued for it by providing two bits of evidence.

Also, glad to see we will be having another run with Superboy. Superboy: Future's End sounds like it is going to be interesting.

Those events that happened in the pocket universe,

The pocket universe which the combined Kon-El/Jon Kent created.

were not as good as it sounded at first, if they happened at all the way some interpreted it.

They didn't abhilegend is twisting and mutilating context in order to service his side of the debate. It's called using dishonest debating tactics.

Most commonly done in politics.

Let's see what happens in the main real Universe, not Kons head. [/B]

This event happened in reality it was not in Kon-El or Jon Kent's head. It was for real.I posted it pages ago. Now lets look at it again.

Superboy #33

Where in this scene is it unclear what the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent does?

^I won't quote you because I don't want to repeat the scans and I am too lazy to edit your posts. I like our discussion because you are polite btw ^^.

So, the scans I posted, it says that everything happened in this pocket-universe or the Universe-bubbles. This indicates a special place, it had no effect on Kons friends at all, except the memory and "Kons return". I will give you my opinion on this, we will disagree and it would end in a circular debate, to avoid it I just share my point of view, like you do, neither one is more valid right now, only the future will tell who is "right" and who is "wrong".

What I see here are three possibilities.

1. This Paradox is Superboy returning and reforming from the dead, with the help of the memories of his friends. Like Dr. Manhatten reformed himself in Watchmen. Though Kon drags his friends, or their mind into his, where all the differen't possible characters, or possibilities how he could have developed, fight for kontrol, and in the end one wins, is reformed and we will see if it is the real good kon or an evil one.

2. There is a number of infinite timeline, next to the 52 universes, though the alternate realities wouldn't make sense but writers might ignore this. Anyway, Kon is in this pocket-universe or bubble universe, seeing all other possible Superboys for real and fighting them, in this place differen't rules exist, since it is an paradoxon, and Superboy is the key to it, he can kind of control it, bestow powers etc but once out of it, everything is gone, back to normal, like it never happened, because it only happened in the bubble-universe. That's why she isn't a GL anymore etc.

3. Your possibility, this bubble-universe was a full universe with our rules and the paradoxon didn't matter at all, had no influence on the rules of time and physics and Superboy did it on his own and got an upgrade, will have now the power to create Superheroes on whim and pocket universe in the main Universe.

I deem the 3rd one unlikely, but we will see.

BTW all of this reminded me of this

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/52086/1650703-alternate_supermen.jpg
And some alternate versions reminded me of this
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3031883-arena4p23.jpg
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120902162705/powerlisting/images/2/2d/Superman-army.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--bWHnnDOmN8/Tloumo89nDI/AAAAAAAAgM8/y4aCOoTTLlY/s400/reign312.jpg

This storyline was btw nothing new.

Originally posted by abhilegend
[B]Not if it is temporary. Its called a temporary amp. You don't see people arguing that Guardian amped Prime was SBP's default power, do you?

No, I wasn't arguing that it wasn't temporary or that either Kon-El or Jon Kent have this power on their own.

What I was arguing was that the combined Kon-El/Jon Kent is more powerful than Superman because he is.

That event changed his life forever. Here it gave Superboy a temporary power up which will be forgotten as soon as the next time he appears.

We're not talking about Kon-El or Jon Kent alone but them fused together here. I already clarified this.

Nope. Try again.

No, we are not talking about Kon-El here. We are talking about the merged Kon-El and Jon Kent.

What is so hard for you to understand?

No, I was merely caught off by how stupid it sounded and it did sound so very stupid.

An entity can that change reality at its whims, can manhandle hoards of Superboys, create pocket universes is apparently weaker than Superman.

Are you loony?

Take that BS to someone who cares. Writer intentions are EVERYTHING in comics.

Writer intention is everything, huh?

So, tell me if a writer told you that someone who murdered someone else in cold blood wasn't a murderer would you believe them? Say they write a character that does that and they do nothing to contradict it. They don't explain that it's a dream or anything. It really happened and the victim didn't deserve it.

Yet, by by the writer's word or claim the character is not a murderer. What then?

That's why we argue about different writers and their take on characters.

No, we argue what the characters can actually do and with what feats they have. Whatever claims a writer makes is about as solid as tapioca pudding.

Take that to CBR or narutoforums. And I was being sarcastic.

Sure, you were being sarcastic. By the way I am Santa Claus, and I happen to be acquainted with the Easter Bunny too.

Not if a writer repeatedly states something. Lobdell literally drove it to the ground. And that's the writer who chooses who is more powerful. Not you or me.

No, the writer can be wrong just like you or me. The are not absolute. We go by what we know for sure and what we see.

That is the only assured answer.

Nice fail there kid.

No, that was me being honest. I don't like you, and I don't like your fallacious debating tactics. You should try the whole honesty thing sometimes.

Haha, really? I mean, really?

Yes, really. I will just assume that your eyesight is so terrible at this point that you can't see your own hypocrisy.

Good for him. Now what has Jon kent ever done to think he is even close to Superman in power?

This is besides the fact they you are trying to change the topic of the conversation as we are on how powerful the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent is. You are just trying to switch goal posts over in order to drag the argument on.

I'll indulge you though.

Okay, let's see Kon destroyed the Star Chamber something H'el thought was impossible. The Star Chamber being able to contain/channel all the energy of the earth's sun and the solar system's electromagnetic field. Yet, it could not handle Kon's psionics. This was in Superman #17.

http://i.imgur.com/yh0GCRH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cuH0FPo.jpg

Kon also destroyed the force-field around the Fortress of Solitude. Something no one else could do, and why Kon was vital for the Justice League. Why H'el also designed the shield especially for Kon. That was in Superboy #16.

http://i.imgur.com/6QmC9dm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/841hX6k.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vOdSzq6.jpg

There's the fact Superboy could even surprise Superman with his strength, and toss him around in Superboy #15 after getting the El armor.

http://i.imgur.com/VPEl1YV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Nfg9z9F.jpg

Also, even as early on as Superboy #6 Kon was able to fight kryptonians like Kara Zor-El.

http://i.imgur.com/OpbUxHC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rfVvllM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/j5cSgpT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mjVZXdf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EFq1vTa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TroN4RG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZqpbSbD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XvRNBoi.jpg

Note how Kon is able to hurt Kara, and how her punches are doing no visible damage. This is in spite of that fact that Kara was angry and intent on killing Kon because he was a clone. Kon ends the fight by incapacitating Kara with a blast of psionics.

Superboy is a threat to full-blooded kryptonians long before he even reaches the height of his power after absorbing Jon Kent's memories.

He doesn't need to. Because that's not a feat for them either. Its like saying these characters are universal.

It's not a feat for either Kon-El or Jon Kent. It's a feat for the entity they fused together and became in Superboy #33. That's what we were talking about to begin with.

And they did it under their own power. These random feats mean really nothing.

They mean nothing? Creating universes, creating pocket universes, altering reality and time-lines, and all that means nothing?

You like five more statements like that?

You can post them all day everyday but they will never actually be evidence without something concrete backing them.

Not if Superman has feats to back them up. And he has a tons of them.

The best feat of power Superman has now to my knowledge is moving that mothership with MM that was larger than the earth in Action Comics #34.

Still not universal or anywhere close to it.

I think I just had an aneurysm induced by the sheer volume of your delirium.

That would be false since no such comment was made in comics.

There's no comment that exists which states that Superboy would grow to be limitless in both mind and body even though I posted it for you to see yourself?

That limitless comment has been made to all people in comics. Heck Byrne Superman's power was stated to be literally limitless.

Yes, that's exactly my point your "Superman is the strongest man on earth" is not any different. It's a phrase thrown around at a moment's notice and carelessly so with no actual consideration for the rest of the setting.

You debate like CBR and that's why you fail.

>twisting and mutilating context, and making up nonsense
>using claims instead of feats
>having double standards and cherry picking when your internal set of rules apply to a character or not

Abhilegend I want you to look into a mirror. You are CBR.

You would have a point if other writers hadn't said that. Others have said such too like Keith Giffen, Geoff Johns, Greg Pak, George Perez and so on.

So what? They're just claims. Not even evidence.

Not really. It would be illogical, power isn't everything in a fight. But when it comes to power, Superman is the being to go.

You're missing the entire point of what I said. I was using that as an example of why you debating from broad statements is full of more holes than swiss cheese.

You haven't produced an evidence.

Yes, I have and more than once now senior excellente.

Oh really? Who end up tearing Doomsday in half? Who benched earth for five days straight? Who just threw a ship larger than earth with J'onn? These are feats which matter.

Who ended up altering times lines at a whim, and who can simply erase Superman out of existence by looking at him funny? The merged Kon-El/Jon Kent that's who. However, since you want to drag this into a Kon-El vs Kal-El fight as well fine then.

You really want to derail the topic.

Who gives a damn about what you think? I will pick the writers over random internet posters like you every day of the week.

Okay then, if you're so sure of Superman's standing and power why do you feel the need to post on KMC to validate your opinion literally at all?

If you're so completely sure of yourself why bother? You have reached the point of having the mentality of "I am right, and you are wrong, and I am not listening to you la la la la!"

Aaron Kuder has made it clear that it wasn't their own power either.

I like your baseless claims supported by literally nothing but your own personal biases and butchered interpretations of what actually happened.

Due to the same phenomena.

No, not the same phenomena. It was specified that H'el had developed chronal strands in Superman #25.

http://i.imgur.com/PBOzi8m.jpg

Chronal strands =/= generating tachyons.

They are using powers out of their own to do that. The difference is that H'el has to time travel and Superboy was so much saturated with chronal energy that he did by his own actions.

Not chronal energy as I already clarified. It was tachyons that the merged entity of Kon-El and Jon Kent was naturally generating.

The merged entity simply wanted things to be a certain way and they became that. It searched for any potentially helpful alternate realities with its senses and fused them into Niti, Rose, Michael, Peter changing them whilst keeping their original personalities intact.

Don't tell me you are this slow to understand something so simple.

Don't tell me your parents let you out of the house without a chaperone to make sure you don't get run over by a car.

"combined Kon-El/Jon Kent is more powerful than Superman because he is. "

Things like this make it hard for me to understand your point, as there is nothing they have done that puts them above Kal tbh. Trying to force it down as truth is just unnecessary.

Star Chamber, was a nice feat but Supergirl and WW worked on that too. Nothing a herald is not capable of tbh.

The fortress forcefield made him bleed, took him almost out. His powers are energybased, makes sense he has a easier time with the field, though impressive, not impressive enough in the herald league.

He surprised superman and that's it, one time and not again. This happened to Superman multiple times, to each herald or strongman in comic history. This is a non feat.

"Who ended up altering times lines at a whim, and who can simply erase Superman out of existence by looking at him funny"

I hope you are not serious. He never displayed this kind of power against a herald. And the pocket-universe thing is really open to interpretation.

Iskander, you forgot to mention that when Superboy destroyed the Field, he was weakened.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
[B]^I won't quote you because I don't want to repeat the scans and I am too lazy to edit your posts. I like our discussion because you are polite btw ^^.

Alright.

So, the scans I posted, it says that everything happened in this pocket-universe or the Universe-bubbles.

Okay, let's rewind things here for a moment. Going back to Superboy #32 explaining how all of this happened.

These many, many Superboys all appeared the moment the future Jon Kent made contact with the present Jon Kent.

http://i.imgur.com/Q3d6eYw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RYr6uPU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ta7acSE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wJP6pDf.jpg

This temporal paradox was the catalyst that created this new Superboy who is a fusion of future Jon Kent and Kon-El.

Superboy #33

http://imgur.com/a/QkFs7

This is an album of the entire issue, we see what the pocket dimension looks likes on the outside. It's explained what happened. Specifically, by Kon-El himself to Jon Kent. Who explains the universe kicked them out, so they created a new one.

This new singular Kon-El/Jon Kent created this place, dragged all the alternate versions of Superboy there as a result, and is locking out the rest of the Earth-2 universe with a large barrier.

The only ones trapped in a mind were both Kon-El and Jon Kent, who were inside this new entity. They took control and made order. Then present Jon Kent separated them.

Next issue in Superboy #34

http://imgur.com/a/sqjvz

It all really existed until future Jon Kent sacrificed himself to destroy present Jon Kent which destroyed the entire pocket dimension. As well as any of the changes it made.

This indicates a special place, it had no effect on Kons friends at all, except the memory and "Kons return".

Yes and no, because Jon Kent sacrificed himself to kill his present self by showing him into the barrier containing the pocket universe. This killed the both of them and with the "universe" gone all the changes disappeared. Peter, Michael, Rose, and Niti changed back to normal.

It did have an effect on them it's just that the destruction of the pocket universe removed the changes.

I will give you my opinion on this, we will disagree and it would end in a circular debate, to avoid it I just share my point of view, like you do, neither one is more valid right now, only the future will tell who is "right" and who is "wrong".

What I see here are three possibilities.

Now read everything I just posted as it contains important context regarding what I am talking about. Most of which clears up a lot of things.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
"combined Kon-El/Jon Kent is more powerful than Superman because he is. "

Things like this make it hard for me to understand your point, as there is nothing they have done that puts them above Kal tbh. Trying to force it down as truth is just unnecessary.

Superman doesn't have anything on the scale of casually warping reality or creating pocket universes, nor turning people into Green Lanterns at a whim.

I said that "because he is" because I have already established as such and posted scans. I would have said more than just that but there's the 10000 character limit.

Star Chamber, was a nice feat but Supergirl and WW worked on that too. Nothing a herald is not capable of tbh.

http://i.imgur.com/cuH0FPo.jpg

No, ultimately we see that it was Superboy who destroyed it in the second scan up in the left upper left corner. Then in the panel right next to it H'el is all "that's not possible" in response to that.

http://i.imgur.com/PXubZum.jpg

Then in the same issue we find out H'el planned for this ahead of time. That Superboy would destroy the Star Chamber so he could use Superboy's powers to fuel his ship.

As said by Superman and H'el admits that he had planned for it all long ahead of time.

The fortress forcefield made him bleed, took him almost out. His powers are energybased, makes sense he has a easier time with the field, though impressive, not impressive enough in the herald league.

It's impressive considering of the Justice League including Superman he was the necessary at the front-line assault on the Fortress of Solitude against the force-field.

He surprised superman and that's it, one time and not again. This happened to Superman multiple times, to each herald or strongman in comic history. This is a non feat.

So, we're going to pretend to didn't happen at all and say it was PIS? No, it's not PIS and the sudden boost in strength/speed is even explained by it being the power of Superboy's psionics condensed to his body.

"Who ended up altering times lines at a whim, and who can simply erase Superman out of existence by looking at him funny"

I hope you are not serious. He never displayed this kind of power against a herald.

Why would this merged Superboy not be able to simply alter Superman's time-line to one where had died or one where he had not even existed?

And the pocket-universe thing is really open to interpretation.

No, it's clear it happened and the changes were reversed once it was destroyed by Jon Kent.

Originally posted by carver9
Iskander, you forgot to mention that when Superboy destroyed the Field, he was weakened.

I would have but there's a 10000 character limit, and apparently the debate has gotten so out of hand we're typing this much now. 😬

Originally posted by Iskandar
Alright.

Okay, let's rewind things here for a moment. Going back to Superboy #32 explaining how all of this happened.

These many, many Superboys all appeared the moment the future Jon Kent made contact with the present Jon Kent.

http://i.imgur.com/Q3d6eYw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RYr6uPU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ta7acSE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wJP6pDf.jpg

This temporal paradox was the catalyst that created this new Superboy who is a fusion of future Jon Kent and Kon-El.

Superboy #33

http://imgur.com/a/QkFs7

This is an album of the entire issue, we see what the pocket dimension looks likes on the outside. It's explained what happened. Specifically, by Kon-El himself to Jon Kent. Who explains the universe kicked them out, so they created a new one.

This new singular Kon-El/Jon Kent created this place, dragged all the alternate versions of Superboy there as a result, and is locking out the rest of the Earth-2 universe with a large barrier.

The only ones trapped in a mind were both Kon-El and Jon Kent, who were inside this new entity. They took control and made order. Then present Jon Kent separated them.

Next issue in Superboy #34

http://imgur.com/a/sqjvz

It all really existed until future Jon Kent sacrificed himself to destroy present Jon Kent which destroyed the entire pocket dimension. As well as any of the changes it made.

Yes and no, because Jon Kent sacrificed himself to kill his present self by showing him into the barrier containing the pocket universe. This killed the both of them and with the "universe" gone all the changes disappeared. Peter, Michael, Rose, and Niti changed back to normal.

It did have an effect on them it's just that the destruction of the pocket universe removed the changes.

Now read everything I just posted as it contains important context regarding what I am talking about. Most of which clears up a lot of things.

See your point is supporting my argument. This pocket-Dimension is nothing compared to a whole universe and it plays by special rules, means Kon is the key to this pocket-universe and as such can manipulate it. Something he has never done outside it because he can't alter the reality of the normal Universe. But maybe you can show me Kon manipulating the main Universe, time and space and create Green lanterns or other heroes out of nothing outside the bubble-universe?

The effect it had on them was only inside the bubble, or his head depends on how you interprete it. As said, outside of it, they were normal and I yet have to see Superboy create Green lanterns or other superbeings by whim outside a contained space that had no effects on reality.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Superman doesn't have anything on the scale of casually warping reality or creating pocket universes, nor turning people into Green Lanterns at a whim.

I said that "because he is" because I have already established as such and posted scans. I would have said more than just that but there's the 10000 character limit.

http://i.imgur.com/cuH0FPo.jpg

No, ultimately we see that it was Superboy who destroyed it in the second scan up in the left upper left corner. Then in the panel right next to it H'el is all "that's not possible" in response to that.

http://i.imgur.com/PXubZum.jpg

Then in the same issue we find out H'el planned for this ahead of time. That Superboy would destroy the Star Chamber so he could use Superboy's powers to fuel his ship.

As said by Superman and H'el admits that he had planned for it all long ahead of time.

It's impressive considering of the Justice League including Superman he was the necessary at the front-line assault on the Fortress of Solitude against the force-field.

So, we're going to pretend to didn't happen at all and say it was PIS? No, it's not PIS and the sudden boost in strength/speed is even explained by it being the power of Superboy's psionics condensed to his body.

Why would this merged Superboy not be able to simply alter Superman's time-line to one where had died or one where he had not even existed?

No, it's clear it happened and the changes were reversed once it was destroyed by Jon Kent.

I would have but there's a 10000 character limit, and apparently the debate has gotten so out of hand we're typing this much now. 😬

Kon doesn't have too, outside this pocket-universe. Except of this, it is nothing Superman would need to beat him. Resitance to reality warping is a thing, and the display of power even in the pocket universe from kon was rather small. Not enough to put him anywhere near the HH tier. His strength, speed and durability is far far below Supermans based on feats. His creation of a GL is nice, but irrelevant if he can't replicate such a feat outside the pocket-dimension.

First we see WW and Supergirl punching a hole into it, then Kon brings it down. Now, we know it is possible to bring it down and H'els words, I never though it is possible were just a lie, as you yourself showed because if he indeed though it impossible, he wouldn't have planned it all along 😉. Means, this is also a non feat, as Superboy destroyed, with the help of WW and Supergirl, something made to be destroyed by him. Thanks.

I said it was impressive, nothing more. You need the right tool for the right situation, that doesn't mean said tool is more powerful than another. 😉

I didn't say it's PIS, reread what I said. I said it is nothing special to throw another being, might it be the hulk or Superman, back, if you catch them by surprise and it happens very often in comics. It was not a fight and it wasn't like Superboy beat the shiet out of Superman. That doesn't mean he is stronger. Supermans strength exceedes Superboys strength by far.

Ok, show me Superboy altering the timeline on this scale outside the pocket-dimension, than you have a point. H'el wasn't even able to do it and he needed a lot of effort and planning to jump inbetween the time.

It happened in this pocket-dimension, and only there, if it was real or just in the head of Superboy is yet to be seen.

I told you before, that this is a circular argument, as your mind is set on the premise, Superboy is more powerful than Superman. this is btw the agenda I noticed in the beginning, no offense.

Believe what you want, but don't expect me or others to follow your line of reasoning if it contradicts what I consider common sense and a more logical interpretation of the bubble-universe "feat".

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
[B]See your point is supporting my argument. This pocket-Dimension is nothing compared to a whole universe and it plays by special rules, means Kon is the key to this pocket-universe and as such can manipulate it. Something he has never done outside it because he can't alter the reality of the normal Universe. But maybe you can show me Kon manipulating the main Universe, time and space and create Green lanterns or other heroes out of nothing outside the bubble-universe?

It doesn't need to manipulate anything outside of it. Also, we're not talking about Kon here but rather the fused Kon-El/Jon Kent.

It can simply create the pocket universe whenever it wants. Just like with what happened in #32 and in #33 Kon-El clarifies that they made it.

The effect it had on them was only inside the bubble, or his head depends on how you interprete it.

No, not in their head.

The head part where Kon-El and Jon Kent try to take control of their new body is completely different than what happens outside of their actual body. What we see in the pocket universe doesn't happen inside their head. We even see it exist from the POV of some people who are not even inside of it in Superboy #33.

http://i.imgur.com/mC2K16V.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0MClI9O.jpg

These guys remember?

As said, outside of it, they were normal and

Rose, Michael, Peter, and Niti only changed back once the pocket universe was destroyed not when they left it.

I yet have to see Superboy create Green lanterns or other superbeings by whim outside a contained space that had no effects on reality.

The point this Kon-El/Jon Kent can creature this space whenever it wanted and did so when they universe "kicked them out" there's nothing stopping it from doing so again if it were to fight Superman.

Kon doesn't have too, outside this pocket-universe. Except of this, it is nothing Superman would need to beat him. Resitance to reality warping is a thing, and the display of power even in the pocket universe from kon was rather small.

Okay then, post me a scene where Superman is able to resist being transformed into an alternate version of himself from another time-line.

If you're right it should exist. If you're wrong it shouldn't.

Not enough to put him anywhere near the HH tier.

What feats does this Hector Hammond even have to compare to this Kon-El/Jon Kent entity?

His strength, speed and durability is far far below Supermans based on feats.

Based on feats, kryptonians like Supergirl can't do anything to actually hurt Kon-El when he was just starting to understand his powers let alone this Kon-El/Jon Kent entity who is far more powerful than even Kon-El at his strongest after absorbing Jon Kent's memories.

His creation of a GL is nice, but irrelevant if he can't replicate such a feat outside the pocket-dimension.

Why does it need to when it can just create the pocket universe whenever it wants, and trap Superman in there at its leisure?

First we see WW and Supergirl punching a hole into it, then Kon brings it down.

No, first we see Kon-El blast it then Supergirl and Wonder Woman join in. Then finally Kon-El destroys it.

http://i.imgur.com/yh0GCRH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cuH0FPo.jpg

Here it is again.

Now, we know it is possible to bring it down and H'els words, I never though it is possible were just a lie, as you yourself showed because if he indeed though it impossible, he wouldn't have planned it all along 😉.

No, H'el never planned for it to be possible to be brought down what he planned was for Superboy to try to do so and fuel his ship. The fact it was destroyed was something he didn't expect. That's why he was surprised.

Also, the fact that H'el required Superboy to fuel it because he himself couldn't doesn't light up any alarms in your head? H'el needed Superboy because he wasn't powerful to fuel the ship. Superboy was.

Means, this is also a non feat, as Superboy destroyed, with the help of WW and Supergirl, something made to be destroyed by him. Thanks.

A non-feat? How is it a non-feat when H'el explicitly planned all of this just so he could get a hold of Superboy's powers to fuel his ship?

This also doesn't change the fact that Star Chamber was able to contain/channel all of the energy of the sun and the solar system's electromagnetic field.

This is also explicit. Superman #17.

http://i.imgur.com/Id8oRHT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TfIpi2H.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r8fwAc7.jpg

The factors necessary for H'el to fuel his ship.

1) the Sun's energy

2) the solar systems electromagnetic field

3) Kon-El's power

I said it was impressive, nothing more. You need the right tool for the right situation, that doesn't mean said tool is more powerful than another. 😉

No, what you need to do to overload something that was made to contain the power of the sun and the power of the entire solar system's electromagnetic field is someone or something with even more power.

Superboy's psionics are above what energy it could contain from the earth's sun and the solar system's electromagnetic field.

I didn't say it's PIS, reread what I said. I said it is nothing special to throw another being, might it be the hulk or Superman, back, if you catch them by surprise and it happens very often in comics. It was not a fight and it wasn't like Superboy beat the shiet out of Superman. That doesn't mean he is stronger. Supermans strength exceedes Superboys strength by far.

Strength maybe but Superboy can easily mitigate that with his TK as he can use it to amplfy his strength.

Considering that Superboy's TK is powerful enough to destroy the Star Chamber, plow a giant hole all the way down the earth's molten core, easily incapacitate kryptonians like Supergirl even before numerous power-ups and upgrades, and even effect temporal anomalies I think it evens out.

Ok, show me Superboy altering the timeline on this scale outside the pocket-dimension, than you have a point. H'el wasn't even able to do it and he needed a lot of effort and planning to jump inbetween the time.

H'el wasn't even as powerful as the Kon-El/Jon Kent entity. H'el was just time-traveling and existing in a time loop.

Also, as clarified the Kon-El/Jon Kent entity could simply just create the pocket universe whenever it wants like when it was kicked out of the universe.

It happened in this pocket-dimension, and only there, if it was real or just in the head of Superboy is yet to be seen.

I literally posted the entire issue for you and you are still saying it might be in Kon-El/Jon Kent's mind even though we clearly see that it's not?

What scan in specific is actually making you draw into this conclusion now?

I told you before, that this is a circular argument, as your mind is set on the premise, Superboy is more powerful than Superman. this is btw the agenda I noticed in the beginning, no offense.

You know what agenda I am noticing at this very moment? You can't handle the fact that anything might be more powerful than Superman so you are skewing context in order to get what you want. I have been polite, I have been reasonable, and I have posted scans.

Now you're resorting to ad hominems and claiming I have a conspiracy going on?

You know I would expect dishonest debate tactics out of abhilegend but I thought you were better than that. Guess I was wrong.

Believe what you want, but don't expect me or others to follow your line of reasoning if it contradicts what I consider common sense and a more logical interpretation of the bubble-universe "feat".

No, you do not get to pretend the your misinterpretation is correct when I have explicitly proven you wrong several times over and went so far as to post the entire issue to correct you. I have even proven you wrong by providing the correct interpretation of the scans you misinterpreted earlier.

You can believe what you want but your personal opinion at this very moment is completely and utterly wrong. You don't get to pretend that it's not. More importantly, you don't get to plug your ears and point fingers. When all you have to do is just correct your mistakes.

In the lower left it's.........

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120902162705/powerlisting/images/2/2d/Superman-army.jpg

SUNGOD!!!

I'm calling the legal department at DC IMMEDIATELY!