Originally posted by DarkSaint85You can see him hitting Superman a lot more than 5 times. 😬
Well, it seems we are at an impasse.You cling to the low showings of Zoom.
I cling to the showing where he's affecting Superman.
At the end of the day, we will have to agree to disagree. But I will say this, then bow out.
In the scan I posted, I count five Kraks from Zoom on Supes (incidentally, two less than Batman). These all affected him negatively. Don't worry, I'm not one of those posters who thinks a 'Krak' equals something broken.
In the scan Galan posted, where he's fighting so quickly Superman can't help Wally, they've circled the Earth a dozen times, with a punch thrown every thousand miles. 25,000 miles, multiplied by 12, equals 300 punches thrown.
FIVE punches made Superman make the O face. 300 will mess him up. And that would only be the initial salvo.
Abhi, you cling to it being Johns wankery. Does it matter? I've seen you do the same when McDuffie's writing (WW being faster, Dr Light being faster). Again, does it matter? Is the comic canon? Yes, it is.
Anything else is just you trying to cloud the issue, with scan dumps. Next time, am I allowed to use Bizarro's feats for Superman? Hell no. His low showings? DEfinitely not. So when the thread title is Zoom vs Superman, and they've shown the two fighting before, and Zoom came out on top...well, that's all there is, really.
And then he held back against Batman while maintaining his blitzing speed...
And then Hal up and snatched him while he was at "Superman blitzing speed".
If we're under the impression that one surprise blitz off the bat is enough to rule out Superman touching him then I don't know what to say. Superman wasn't ready for him and paid the price of some punching that hurt him a little. That doesn't mean he would never be able to tag him... especially when you factor in what has.
It's a complete denial to objectively look at an average here. No Superman doesn't get other people's feats. But when he is as fast or faster than people who have tagged Zoom then surely some thought should get put into it.
And this is all off memory so I may be wrong, but...
Power girl had him by the throat when he was throwing millions of punches.
Kal-L swatted him
Damage and Liberty Belle ruined the last shred of dignity he had
He needed acceleration to go lightspeed in the last part of the "Superman standing still" arc, or his first arc.
Blind Wonder Woman got him bad in his best offensive power showing
Hal snatched him up in the "Superman blitzing" showing.
Bizarro tied him in a race then bear hugged him.
Etc.
Are those low showings, or simply using feats to show Zoom is not untouchable? It's not like the guy has enough feats to overrule these. And some of these happen in the height of Zoom's feats. Yes Damage and Liberty Belle is bad but the others are not. They are simply an argument to be had for Superman. And just acting like they didn't happen to a character with barely any feats outside these showings doesn't work. Especially when some of these instances are being used here.
Can Zoom blitz him? Sure. Can Superman tag him? I don't see why not, unless we're purely cherry picking high feats.
Can Zoom KO him is the real question however. There's a strong line between simply getting hurt and getting knocked out. And that's ignoring Superman's durability and damage soak. Zoom hit Superman... A lot and caused him to make a face. Is that to say that Superman would forever be a statue while Zoom hacks away at him for a long period of time to bring him down? Not likely. Following Superman's showings and Zoom's after that initial salvo Superman is going to likely start unloading his speed to a character largely and for a long time in his arm length distance. As we've seen before Zoom gets sloppy throwing that many punches at a time. Either sloppy or people decide to walk through him.
Then after that you've got some sort of battle.
But you still have the lingering point that Zoom hits like a girl. It's going to take more than a bad picture face to bring down Superman. Comparing damage but the guy was fully ready to fight after bleeding out of every hole in his face by Darkseid. If that doesn't come close to stopping him I doubt a couple punches that give him a bad face do.
But I digress. Can you name the most durable guy Zoom has knocked out?
I'll get home and check out his shit later today.
I wish they would make clear limits in the comics about who these speedsters can put down, and who they can't, to finish these CISless Flash and Zoom threads once and for all.
Otherwise there will never be a general consensus here because there's such a Gigantic difference in their Power Set, what they are logically capable of and how they normally perform and who they've actually put down.
Zoom was not trying to KO or kill superman when he blitz the hell out of him. He was talking to him as he speed punched him. When zoom and flash were fighting and superman was frozen just like everyone else, flash or zoom could have beaten him into paste at will.Zoom choosing not to even kill batman while blitzing him should set off a light in the minds of people to zooms intents. Zoom stomps in this fight and there is nothing superman can do about it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I wish they would make clear limits in the comics about who these speedsters can put down, and who they can't, to finish these CISless Flash and Zoom threads once and for all.Otherwise there will never be a general consensus here because there's such a Gigantic difference in their Power Set, what they are logically capable of and how they normally perform and who they've actually put down.
Story generally trumps consistency when you have a universe with several writers.
Every fight generally has to be close and villains have to lose 🙂
Originally posted by JBL
Zoom was not trying to KO or kill superman when he blitz the hell out of him. He was talking to him as he speed punched him. When zoom and flash were fighting and superman was frozen just like everyone else, flash or zoom could have beaten him into paste at will.Zoom choosing not to even kill batman while blitzing him should set off a light in the minds of people to zooms intents. Zoom stomps in this fight and there is nothing superman can do about it.
Originally posted by JBL
Yeah, its quite hard to hold a conversation with someone if they are KOED.Some characters want other characters that they are fighting to hear them.
Originally posted by krisblaze
Some people can't wrap their head around the fact that Zoom's trying to improve people.And you can't do that if they're unconscious/dead.
And what exactly was Flash doing? Manicuring his fingernails?
Originally posted by abhilegendZoom already embarrassed him one on one. No abc logic when we have a direct counter, boy.
Yeah, that's what they were doing. Seriously? I somehow doubt Flash was doing the same who was at equal footing in speed and was doing his best to beat Zoom.And what exactly was Flash doing? Manicuring his fingernails?
Originally posted by DARTH POWERthey don't kill, so that figures into things. CIS they wouldn't hold back and would use their full power.
I wish they would make clear limits in the comics about who these speedsters can put down, and who they can't, to finish these CISless Flash and Zoom threads once and for all.Otherwise there will never be a general consensus here because there's such a Gigantic difference in their Power Set, what they are logically capable of and how they normally perform and who they've actually put down.
So, basically, Zoom had that showing in his first story arc where he was so "fast" Wally needed a speed boost and Superman was frozen to both of them, Zoom hasn't shown to be on that level of "speed" again, and people bring-up when Zoom attacked Superman in what's basically an out of context showing(since nothing was shown before), blitzing the Trinity right before Hal catches him off-guard and embarrasses Zoom, and people arguing for Zoom/against Superman are taking those two examples as the standard?
Originally posted by h1a8
they don't kill, so that figures into things. CIS they wouldn't hold back and would use their full power.
They don't need to kill, just KO/Defeat/Capture/Whatever. Oh and does Zoom not kill?
So again I want to know who is the most powerful being Flash or Zoom can defeat. And I want it shown in a comic book.
Otherwise surely it's just in our heads that they can take the likes of Superman, when they never actually have taken someone as powerful as him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERwe have to use logic and suspension of disbelief to ascertain the truth of things. Direct showings aren't the only method of proof.
They don't need to kill, just KO/Defeat/Capture/Whatever. Oh and does Zoom not kill?So again I want to know who is the most powerful being Flash or Zoom can defeat. And I want it shown in a comic book.
Otherwise surely it's just in our heads that they can take the likes of Superman, when they never actually have taken someone as powerful as him.
1. Zoom has hit harder than Superman before in comics. So we know he can do it here provided he wants to.
2. Zoom, because of his speed, can strike with a bazillion joules of kinetic energy since kinetic energy=1/2 mv^2.
3. Zoom holds back so that he can teach. This (along with 1.) implies that he can hit a lot harder than what he's shown. It's a must to say at least 2x more.
I still haven't changed my mind about this fight and I never will until someone at least provides proof of Zoom beating ANY Superman-level character. I am curious about something though. I'm wondering why Zoom doesn't break his own damn hands when he hits Superman so hard. Everyone knows hitting Superman is like hitting a brick wall to someone that doesn't have high durability. Just ask Batman who said he nearly broke his hand when he hit Superman while he was wearing that Kryptonite ring... and that was just one hit. So, how in the Hell does a character like Zoom able to hit Clark so many times and not break every bone in his hand? I think Flash is protected by the speed force or something but Zoom doesn't use it does he?
Originally posted by Star428Superman was superfast rolling with the punches.
I still haven't changed my mind about this fight and I never will until someone at least provides proof of Zoom beating ANY Superman-level character. I am curious about something though. I'm wondering why Zoom doesn't break his own damn hands when he hits Superman so hard. Everyone knows hitting Superman is like hitting a brick wall to someone that doesn't have high durability. Just ask Batman who said he nearly broke his hand when he hit Superman while he was wearing that Kryptonite ring... and that was just one hit. So, how in the Hell does a character like Zoom able to hit Clark so many times and not break every bone in his hand? I think Flash is protected by the speed force or something but Zoom doesn't use it does he?
Fact.