Reborn Krayt vs. Crado, Sylvar, Cay Qel Droma, and Tott Doneeta

Originally posted by appletonia

You post the scan of Krayt's fight with the IKs in a lot of threads recently?

I might as well post the link if you're going to be so dishonest about the whole thing: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14881460&highlight=userid%3A147436#post14881460

One, yes, I've done it in several threads, it comes up fairly often. Two, you didn't specify which scans, which widens the array of threads. Three, you failed to say why it's relevant- and even with the link it's not really clear the point you're trying to make.

Communicating badly on your part is not dishonesty on my part.

Here's a tip: Instead of trying to imply things about me, say what you mean.

The difference was certainly bigger between Exar and Sylvar than it was Sylvar and Crado, and I agree that Sylvar was clearly established to be superior to Crado, but that doesn't mean that she was completely out of his league.

Eh, Sylvar didn't have too much problem with Crado when they clashed.

To put it one way, Exar's a bit above council level. Sylvar's mid council or so.

Crado's high master, a useful pawn, reasonably skilled, but one of his primary uses was his blind loyalty, and not shown to council level.

Tott, may be low council level, but he's also primarily a forcer and didn't get in any real duels, just beat some non-force using foes and no-one emphasized his dueling skills either.

Sure but I would maintain that the IKs were not on the level of any of the Jedi on team 2,

It's established that Imperial Knights don't *use* chumps, and Morghan Fel is of the Fel family and a personal bodyguard. These were people where it was viewed as possible that they might've fought their way out of the entire room full of sith.

And even their leader is disarmed in the first shot.

and by extension that Krayt has not shown that he can completely tear through guys on this level, let alone an arguably inferior version when it comes to ligthsaber combat.

An unarmored, stronger-in-the-force version *with* shatterpoints and not sick.

You can argue maybe less muscle (but it's not like they're different arms, so not likely), and certainly less armor so hits'll do more (not that he was the 'take shots to make shots' type to begin with, I think Abeloth was the only one to score melee hits on him during his armored time), but being stronger in the force itself helps in saber combat, before getting into the bonus that is shatterpoints.

Plus, now he can use Dark Transfer with grabs and the like.

So while you could arguably say he's weaker in melee, there's also a solid argument that he's stronger, and even if one views him as weaker in melee due to losing the armor, it's purely a defense decrease, his speed should be the same or higher, and his ability to hit will have gone up thanks to gaining shatterpoint.

And hey, Exar could tear through Crado and Tott fairly easily himself.

Originally posted by Q99

One, yes, I've done it in several threads, it comes up fairly often.

More than once in the last month?

Two, you didn't specify which scans, which widens the array of threads.

Didn't think I needed to...

Three, you failed to say why it's relevant- and even with the link it's not really clear the point you're trying to make.

I'd say it was fairly obvious seeing as I quite clearly established that it's pretty unclear that it was a speed feat at all in that thread, and that was what was being disputed in this thread.

Communicating badly on your part is not dishonesty on my part.

Sure.

Here's a tip: Instead of trying to imply things about me, say what you mean.

Spell things out for you in the future, got it.

Eh, Sylvar didn't have too much problem with Crado when they clashed.

To put it one way, Exar's a bit above council level. Sylvar's mid council or so.

Crado's high master, a useful pawn, reasonably skilled, but one of his primary uses was his blind loyalty, and not shown to council level.

Tott, may be low council level, but he's also primarily a forcer and didn't get in any real duels, just beat some non-force using foes and no-one emphasized his dueling skills either.

Not sure I agree with using "council level" as some kind of measuring stick for their prowess, especially when it seems being placed on the council isn't directly attributed to prowess in battle or strength with the Force. And I don't think you've provided a particularly good case for the Jedi meeting your arbitrary labels for them.

It's established that Imperial Knights don't *use* chumps, and Morghan Fel is of the Fel family and a personal bodyguard. These were people where it was viewed as possible that they might've fought their way out of the entire room full of sith.

And even their leader is disarmed in the first shot.

It's all relative; they were a huge organisation and a large number of their ranks, by definition, will be largely unspectacular. Are we given the impression that they assigned their best members to tasks such as acting as the Emperor's personal bodyguards? Isn't this (personal bodyguard of important figure) often a task for non-Force Sensitives even?

The Jedi in the second team are given the same treatment the most talented and powerful Jedi at the time were given.

An unarmored, stronger-in-the-force version *with* shatterpoints and not sick.

Proof that his sickness directly affected him in combat (beyond being the reason behind his power decrease, if it partially did that)?

Proof that he only gained shatterpoint afterwards?

You can argue maybe less muscle (but it's not like they're different arms, so not likely), and certainly less armor so hits'll do more (not that he was the 'take shots to make shots' type to begin with, I think Abeloth was the only one to score melee hits on him during his armored time), but being stronger in the force itself helps in saber combat, before getting into the bonus that is shatterpoints.

You seem to be understating the advantage that having lightsaber resistant armor provides, and are we given any indication about the manner in which he fought in lightsaber combat in the first, besides the few scans we're shown? Seems you're being a bit presumptious in claiming that he wouldn't have fought in that manner with the armor.

Plus, now he can use Dark Transfer with grabs and the like.

Obviously a very risky move in saber combat.

So while you could arguably say he's weaker in melee, there's also a solid argument that he's stronger, and even if one views him as weaker in melee due to losing the armor, it's purely a defense decrease,

Which can translate into an offence decrease as I explained in the other thread.

his speed should be the same or higher,

Sure but you can't prove that he took the IKs down via a speed blitz as you would like to claim.

and his ability to hit will have gone up thanks to gaining shatterpoint.

Sure it wasn't just Dark Transfer?

Q99 is crushing appletonia.

Originally posted by appletonia
More than once in the last month?

Quite possibly? I'm really not sure.

Dancing around conversations instead of actually saying what you mean to say always leaves room for other people not reading your mind.

I'd say it was fairly obvious seeing as I quite clearly established that it's pretty unclear that it was a speed feat at all in that thread, and that was what was being disputed in this thread.

Oh, but that's a bollocks argument.

The attackers are literally dying in the same attack motion. While comic speed can be hard to precisely judge, when it's all drawn as part of the same motion.

In *both* versions of the event!

(This one seems to imply that three of the knights have been struck down while Mohgran is giving the call to attack)

In the other thread, you didn't establish that it's a 'pretty unclear speed feat,' you questioned it, but questioning is not establishing, and the data's about as clear as a comic can get. When someone's drawn cutting down three people in one motion... then, yea, things are happening fast.

So, no wonder I didn't know what you were talking about.

Spell things out for you in the future, got it.

Would you? Good communication is appreciated 🙂

Not sure I agree with using "council level" as some kind of measuring stick for their prowess, especially when it seems being placed on the council isn't directly attributed to prowess in battle or strength with the Force.

It's not a universal by any means, but I use it as a descriptor because most of the *combat* focused members usually fall into that band.

It's all relative; they were a huge organisation and a large number of their ranks, by definition, will be largely unspectacular.

They have no more than 60 members at a time, sometimes as low as 12, and are specifically promoted only when they reach a certain level of mastery.

We have seen two newbie members, Marasiah Fel and Jao Assim, perform at Master level. Azlyn Rae, a full Jedi, underwent additional training before she became one.

They do have trainees that are unspectacular, to be sure, we see a big group of them used in a mission (note there: trainees are considered fully combat capable. They're basically the equivalent of padawan), but you are not called an Imperial Knight until you've reached that level of power.

The Imperial Knights are the Emperor's guard and representatives, personal agents of his will. As well, this batch specifically was his personal guard lead by his cousin, chief of his bodyguards.

Are we given the impression that they assigned their best members to tasks such as acting as the Emperor's personal bodyguards? Isn't this (personal bodyguard of important figure) often a task for non-Force Sensitives even?

Considering the Emperor is a powerful master himself and those most likely to actually stand a chance at assassinating him are sith lords, and this group specifically went in with the hopes of turning the trap on the Sith and taking down a number of sith and then maybe escaping?

No, not really.

Proof that his sickness directly affected him in combat (beyond being the reason behind his power decrease, if it partially did that)?

After that killing of knights? He needed to sit down for awhile.

I mean, how much seems to vary, it didn't bother him too much during Vector and that was an extended combat, but fighting the implants is clearly a tiring thing.

Proof that he only gained shatterpoint afterwards?

"You see them, don't you Skywalker -- red lines of fire -- the shatterpoints of your own tenuous existence. I needed to experience death to understand how you did it..." -Darth Krayt, in the process of killing Cade with dark transfer.

You seem to be understating the advantage that having lightsaber resistant armor provides,

Oh, I won't deny that, you can argue that that advantage cancels out the rest and you'd have a solid argument.

It, however, doesn't make him any faster.

He will still be physically capable of swinging the blade at equal or higher speed when he is reborn and his force ability is greater.

and are we given any indication about the manner in which he fought in lightsaber combat in the first, besides the few scans we're shown? Seems you're being a bit presumptious in claiming that he wouldn't have fought in that manner with the armor.

Three battles, the third one an extended battle against multiple foes.

At the least, it didn't come up often enough to appear in those.

It seems you're a bit presumptious in assuming he does normally fight in a way that we haven't seen. I'm sure he can, and maybe in some circumstances does, but at the least he has not chose to in the battles we've seen.

Obviously a very risky move in saber combat.

Not really, once he starts the target's pretty much helpless.

And he's good at melee combat, got a couple good smacks in against Kenobi in his youth.

Sure but you can't prove that he took the IKs down via a speed blitz as you would like to claim.

You can provide no evidence indicating that's the case, and the visuals indicate otherwise.

If one side has evidence and visuals, and the other side merely has doubting those visuals, the former fairly well wins the argument unless and until the other side can provide actual counter-evidence, not simply doubt.

Sure it wasn't just Dark Transfer?

Shatterpoint is a prerequisite of dark transfer. Dark transfer doesn't aid in hitting, but shatterpoint does.

Originally posted by Q99
[B]Quite possibly? I'm really not sure.

Dancing around conversations instead of actually saying what you mean to say always leaves room for other people not reading your mind.

Seems you're basically quite forgetful. 😂

I will remember this for the future and not make references to pertinent threads that occurred practically a week ago.

Oh, but that's a bollocks argument.

The attackers are literally dying in the same attack motion. While comic speed can be hard to precisely judge, when it's all drawn as part of the same motion.

In *both* versions of the event!

(This one seems to imply that three of the knights have been struck down while Mohgran is giving the call to attack)

Well okay, now that you provided the other scan (something I asked for in the other thread if you recall) it does seem to make your interpretation of him taking down all three at once seem far more likely. So good job, however you can hardly blame me for going off of the one scan I was presented with.

That being said, to quote myself from the other thread:

"Even if that was your interpretation, it doesn't mean he neccessarily blitzed them. The Knights may have landed hits on his back, in which case they would have been ineffectual and left the knights open to a swift counterattack. He may have just tore through their defences with sheer strength. He may have landed a few very well placed or timed shots, or there may have even been very brief exchanges. Or he may have even overwhelmed them with speed, but that doesn't necessarily entail blitz worthy speed."

In the other thread, you didn't establish that it's a 'pretty unclear speed feat,' you questioned it, but questioning is not establishing,

It was clearly established whether you want to believe it or not. I pointed out that it was still very ambiguous exactly how he pulled off the feat, and by extension you cannot claim that it was definitely a speed feat (or a blitz). You have absoltuely no argument if you wish to claim that the panel adequately establishes that he achieved the feat through sheer speed.

and the data's about as clear as a comic can get.

Which is still inadequate.

When someone's drawn cutting down three people in one motion... then, yea, things are happening fast.

That he cut them down all simultaneously does not mean he did so in a manner that entailed superior speed.

It's not a universal by any means, but I use it as a descriptor because most of the *combat* focused members usually fall into that band.

Either way you haven't really made a good case for the Jedi being in any way unextraordinary. Some of them may have been lacking in feats but every indicator we have is that they were valued as some of the most promising Jedi Knights of the era.

They have no more than 60 members at a time, sometimes as low as 12, and are specifically promoted only when they reach a certain level of mastery.

We have seen two newbie members, Marasiah Fel and Jao Assim, perform at Master level. Azlyn Rae, a full Jedi, underwent additional training before she became one.

They do have trainees that are unspectacular, to be sure, we see a big group of them used in a mission (note there: trainees are considered fully combat capable. They're basically the equivalent of padawan), but you are not called an Imperial Knight until you've reached that level of power.

I never claimed that they were terrible, I'm sure they were easily master level, but the fact remains that even if there were only 40 IKs, and these IKs were simply average among that group, in a Galaxy where you have the most powerful Force Sensitive individuals being sought out by the Jedi (and Sith?) as well (who presumably were much more adept at finding powerful Force Sensitive individuals) this doesn't paint a picture of them necessarily standing out in the grand scheme of things. You also have to consider that however well trained these IKs were, they were a relatively new organisation; what access to Jedi teachings did they have? How can we be sure IK philosophy and methodology would have produced the best combatants?

((that Azlyn Rae went through additional training to become an IK doesn't necessarily mean that the training was more advanced, but simply different.))

Didn't they also only consider recruiting Force Sensitives that displayed loyalty to the Empire in the first place? I can't imagine they would have had the most deep talent pool compared to the Jedi.

You haven't established that the IKs that would be tasked with protecting the Emperor would have necessarily had to have been stand out IKs; perhaps they were just the standard IKs, and they were deemed adequate to the task, along with all the other layers of security in place? Being a personal bodyguard ties an individual up when they could be used for other missions; how can you be so sure that the stand out IKs weren't deployed on more dynamic missions?

At the end of the day you have no precedent that suggests that these IKs were treated as being in any way special in the grand scheme of the things, whereas with the Jedi Knights in team 2 we have (given the exact same treatment as Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, Ulic Qel-Droma), which is what this ultimately boils down to.

The Imperial Knights are the Emperor's guard and representatives, personal agents of his will. As well, this batch specifically was his personal guard lead by his cousin, chief of his bodyguards.

You'll need more than the fact that he was his cousin to establish they stood out in any real way.

Question: how many people have we seen Krayt go up against that he didn't just tear through? Just Cade and Wyyrlock? Who have we seen go up against them etc? Anything that would lead us to believe that there was anyone in that era who wasn't completely elite but still wouldn't be fodder to Krayt?

Considering the Emperor is a powerful master himself and those most likely to actually stand a chance at assassinating him are sith lords,

Did they even consider the Sith a credible threat at the time?

and this group specifically went in with the hopes of turning the trap on the Sith and taking down a number of sith and then maybe escaping?

Ah, I see, they hoped they would be able to. I guess that proves everything.

After that killing of knights? He needed to sit down for awhile.

I mean, how much seems to vary, it didn't bother him too much during Vector and that was an extended combat, but fighting the implants is clearly a tiring thing.

That still doesn't establish that it would have slowed him down in combat, but rather that he just felt the effects of it moreso afterwards.

"You see them, don't you Skywalker -- red lines of fire -- the shatterpoints of your own tenuous existence. I needed to experience death to understand how you did it..." -Darth Krayt, in the process of killing Cade with dark transfer.

In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu notes that practically any Jedi can see shatterpoints, and what made him special was the ease at which they came to him. What Krayt is describing is something he was only able to learn at all after being able to experience death.

By the sounds of things, this ability, what Cade and Krayt can do, is something else entirely: either these different kinds of shatterpoints that deal specifically with life and death (would make sense that he would then be able to see them after crossing the threshhold of life and death) or the Dark Transfer technique specifically. You're clearly reaching in claiming that this would have functioned in the same way to Mace Windu's talent in lightsaber combat.

When Cade first talks about this ability, doesn't he make it very clear that it is specifically a life/death thing that he sees?

Oh, I won't deny that, you can argue that that advantage cancels out the rest and you'd have a solid argument.

It, however, doesn't make him any faster.

Doesn't matter; you cannot prove that taking down the IKs was entirely a feat of speed, and that the armor didn't factor in at all.

Three battles, the third one an extended battle against multiple foes.

At the least, it didn't come up often enough to appear in those.

It seems you're a bit presumptious in assuming he does normally fight in a way that we haven't seen. I'm sure he can, and maybe in some circumstances does, but at the least he has not chose to in the battles we've seen.

I'd hardly say I was being presumptious in expecting Krayt to make a sound tactical decision. It makes no sense to assume that he wouldn't take advantage of something as useful as lightsaber resistant armor or that it wouldn't shape the manner in which he fought.

Not really, once he starts the target's pretty much helpless.

Has to be able to touch them first, which is a great way to get your hand sliced off.

You can provide no evidence indicating that's the case, and the visuals indicate otherwise.

The visuals, now that you've provided both scans, indicate that he took them down simultaneously. They don't particularly suggest whether it was or wasn't achieved through superior speed either way.

If one side has evidence and visuals, and the other side merely has doubting those visuals, the former fairly well wins the argument unless and until the other side can provide actual counter-evidence, not simply doubt.

That's not how the burden of proof works. You are the one wishing to make a definitive interpretation from the comic and to that end it's your responsibility to be able to prove it. My claim is that it's inconclusive, and to that end all I need to do is cast doubt.

Shatterpoint is a prerequisite of dark transfer. Dark transfer doesn't aid in hitting, but shatterpoint does.

Alright but that doesn't answer my question. Was it both that he later learned, or just Dark Transfer?

Q, according to the wookieepedia page, there was a difference between regular IKs and Master IKs?? And it seems that becoming the Emperor's bodyguard was standard practice for an IK that had passed their trials.

Where is it stated they never had any more than 60 IKs at a time?

Is there anything that indicates these Iks were in any way spectacular?

I acknowledge that it's an impressive feat, but you seem to be trying to turn it into something more than it should be, which is a very good feat against fodder opponents.

So as I'm beginning to understand it, the IKs were a very young order with relatively undeveloped methods of training and a somewhat crude philosophy (was clearly not derived from an understanding of the Force but as a function of the Empire), that only recruited individuals that were loyal to the Empire (did they even recruit children?) in a Galaxy where the Jedi Knights searched endlessly for the most powerful and most numerous potent Force Sensitives using methods they'd refined over thousands of years (and the Sith as well?).

I wouldn't be particularly shocked if the IKs were the very weakest order of Force Sensitives we've ever come across to be honest.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q99 is crushing appletonia.

I will remember this for the future and not make references to pertinent threads that occurred practically a week ago.

You can make references, but in those cases, you need to actually make the reference. Remember, you didn't even make the reference to what you were talking about. You vague hinted at 'the other thread,' which literally covers every other thread in the forum.

Posted by appletonia
So as I'm beginning to understand it, the IKs were a very young order with relatively undeveloped methods of training and a somewhat crude philosophy (was clearly not derived from an understanding of the Force but as a function of the Empire),

They were an order that'd been around generations at that point and had a good portion of Jedi defectors. Their founder was Jaina Solo.

They had a loyalty to the Emperor but aside from that their training was based on the Jedi ways and was by no means immature.

You can't make up stuff about an order to downplay it.

that only recruited individuals that were loyal to the Empire (did they even recruit children?)

That 'only' makes up a noticeable percent of the galactic population ^^

We don't know at what time recruiting started.

I wouldn't be particularly shocked if the IKs were the very weakest order of Force Sensitives we've ever come across to be honest.

We've seen repeatedly them stand alongside and against highly trained Jedi and Sith masters.

They're a small order, but as I said, every member is held to a high standard before they get the job.

Frankly they'd slaughter many of the smaller orders we've seen.

Q, according to the wookieepedia page, there was a difference between regular IKs and Master IKs??

There's a minor difference between those who're senior Knights, 'masters,' and the rest, but it's not a big one.

Even ones not given the title have shown to perform on Jedi Master level.

Jao Assim helped push over a several-hundred-foot dish with a force push and he's a junior member.

Where is it stated they never had any more than 60 IKs at a time?

The legacy campaign guide, and also the entire order is deployed at the end of Legacy II against a small army of sith.

Is there anything that indicates these Iks were in any way spectacular?

By Imperial Knight standards? Perhaps not, but again, Imperial Knights must be at what we'd call Jedi Master level before they even get the title, and they're all combat focused. And that's just for three of the four.

The three who came at Krayt from the sides and behind were trusted enough to do the job- and again, there was hope they'd be able to fight their way through a room of ranking sith, so they were certainly trusted to be solid in combat.

Their leader, Mohgran, was a Fel, the family line is known for it's high force potential. He had ancestors named 'Luke' and 'Anakin' and he was given a special job among the Imperial Knights.

I acknowledge that it's an impressive feat, but you seem to be trying to turn it into something more than it should be, which is a very good feat against fodder opponents.

The point is that Imperial Knights are all master level- They are never treated as fodder in any other circumstance, it takes someone of Krayt's level to brush them aside.

Well okay, now that you provided the other scan (something I asked for in the other thread if you recall) it does seem to make your interpretation of him taking down all three at once seem far more likely. So good job, however you can hardly blame me for going off of the one scan I was presented with.

The one scan you were presented with also showed three of them being cut down in one motion.

So I can blame you, if you have one scan and it contradicts your conclusion, then that's a problem on your end.

Requiring two in order to admit you're off when even the first one (which is simply a more detailed version of this one) disagrees with you is bad work.

You have absoltuely no argument if you wish to claim that the panel adequately establishes that he achieved the feat through sheer speed.

Your argument is three people dying in a single set of attacks that takes less time than a sentence and where the people were clearly unable to block the first attacks isn't a speed thing.

Wherein, in *both* scans, the motions of Krayt's lightsabers and body is obviously depicted.

Your conclusion didn't appear to be based on any evidence whatsoever.

Which is still inadequate.

Insisting something is inadequate by ignoring presented data is simply not a good argument.

That he cut them down all simultaneously does not mean he did so in a manner that entailed superior speed.

So you are suggesting that cutting down three Master level combatants in one moment is something done slowly? That is just ridiculous.

in a Galaxy where you have the most powerful Force Sensitive individuals being sought out by the Jedi (and Sith?) as well (who presumably were much more adept at finding powerful Force Sensitive individuals) this doesn't paint a picture of them necessarily standing out in the grand scheme of things.

It paints them as small but elite. Considering we're talking individual quality that's what's relevant to the question at hand.

what access to Jedi teachings did they have? How can we be sure IK philosophy and methodology would have produced the best combatants?

One, Jaina Solo Fel. Kinda a big Jedi name. Had access to the best Jedi teachings. Again, a recent Jedi Recruit, Azlyn Rae, even though her Jedi training was complete got additional training on top of that when joining them.

Two, we've seen their combatants in action. Antares Draco leaves piles of Sith bodies in his wake and clashes with the Sith Hands, members of Krayt's Inner Circle, and Ganner Krieg does as well. Jao Assim has huge force feats and solid saber work and he's a junior method. Treis Sinde, Azlyn Rae... basically they're demonstrated to be strong combatants.

The main IKnights in Legacy show themselves to be strong combatants on screen.

Question: how many people have we seen Krayt go up against that he didn't just tear through?Anything that would lead us to believe that there was anyone in that era who wasn't completely elite but still wouldn't be fodder to Krayt?

He's also fought Abeloth, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and Aurra Sing as well. Though he was weaker in those days.

Even the first time he fought Cade, he flat-out overpowered him and drove him to his knees quickly, so if one isn't completely elite, they are pretty much dead.

Did they even consider the Sith a credible threat at the time?

They considered them a massive threat and this a possible suicide mission, where there was merely a *chance* at any of them escaping. The Jedi Temple had just been crushed by the Sith.

They were in fact guarding a decoy Emperor, because their job was to buy the Emperor time to get away.

In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu notes that practically any Jedi can see shatterpoints, and what made him special was the ease at which they came to him. What Krayt is describing is something he was only able to learn at all after being able to experience death.

When Cade first talks about this ability, doesn't he make it very clear that it is specifically a life/death thing that he sees?

Oh, they can do shatterpoints on any wounds, inanimate objects, etc..

They can see it at an extent to see life and death, but it's clearly the same general ability as Mace.

Mind you, simply greatly increasing someone's ability to see shatterpoints will still make them a more effective combatant in general.

Doesn't matter; you cannot prove that taking down the IKs was entirely a feat of speed, and that the armor didn't factor in at all.

Why would armor grant speed to begin with?

I'm noticing a common thread in your arguments: You express doubt at something, and believe that stands in for proof.

You need to support your arguments with evidence. Merely doubt itself says nothing, if there is nothing supporting the doubt, then your argument is hollow.

We have no evidence supporting your doubt. We do have reason to believe otherwise, factors that we know increase abilities that are present without the armor.

It makes no sense to assume that he wouldn't take advantage of something as useful as lightsaber resistant armor or that it wouldn't shape the manner in which he fought.

It could be he would, but most of the time it doesn't come up, and it still wouldn't increase speed.

Q99 is horrible at noticing when people troll him lmfao

Originally posted by Q99
You can make references, but in those cases, you need to actually make the reference. Remember, you didn't even make the reference to what you were talking about. You vague hinted at 'the other thread,' which literally covers every other thread in the forum.

An explanation for how it qualifies as a hint but not a reference, please.

You being incredibly forgetful isn't a reason for me to stop making casual references to things when 99% of the time people understand exactly what I'm saying.

It's not my exact words that are important here but the context in which they were stated. We were disagreeing about something very specific that we had been having a discussion on in another thread barely a week before. I'm always going to assume that anybody I've engaged in a debate with will have the most basic recollection of our prior interactions.

They were an order that'd been around generations at that point

A few generations is practically nothing in the grand scheme of things when we're dealing with thousand year old organisations.

and had a good portion of Jedi defectors. Their founder was Jaina Solo.

Jaina Solo was neither a great scholar nor a great weapons master, and the other Jedi defectors seem to be completely unextraordinary. Based on the evidence you've given, it doesn't appear to have a great lineage from the Jedi Order at all.

They had a loyalty to the Emperor but aside from that their training was based on the Jedi ways and was by no means immature.

Their philosophy regarding the Force was extremely immature in the sense that it wasn't shaped by spiritual ideals but political ones.

You can't really say that they were exactly like the Jedi except for their loyalty to the Empire as if that's a tiny difference when it completely shaped their philosophy from the ground up.

That 'only' makes up a noticeable percent of the galactic population ^^

We don't know at what time recruiting started.

The point is that it's an additional limitation on who they could recruit that other Orders don't possess. Fewer recruits = thinner talent pool.

There's a minor difference between those who're senior Knights, 'masters,' and the rest, but it's not a big one.

1. You can forgive me if I don't take you at your word at this point, given you flat out stated that simply being promoted to a Knight was the highest rank you could receive in the Order.

2. Clearly if the IKs that Krayt slaughtered didn't even possess the highest rank in the Order, and their role in protecting the Emperor, as described on the wookiepedia page, was completely standard for any fully trained IK, then we have no reason to believe these IKs were at all notable.

Jao Assim helped push over a several-hundred-foot dish with a force push and he's a junior member.

To what extent did he provide assistance in this?

The legacy campaign guide, and also the entire order is deployed at the end of Legacy II against a small army of sith.

Could I get a quote?

The three who came at Krayt from the sides and behind were trusted enough to do the job- and again, there was hope they'd be able to fight their way through a room of ranking sith, so they were certainly trusted to be solid in combat.

Their leader, Mohgran, was a Fel, the family line is known for it's high force potential. He had ancestors named 'Luke' and 'Anakin' and he was given a special job among the Imperial Knights.

You seem to place a rather large amount of faith in what they were trusted, or hoped to do (which IIRC was to simply slow them down, and I don't believe they knew how many Sith were coming).

That they were descended from the Skywalkers is speculation, and having a Skywalker basically act as fodder to the main villain of the story is hardly consistent with the spirit of the franchise. "Hey guys, we're going to make a real big deal about this guy being one of the last remaining Skywalkers and one of the Jedi's last remaining hopes. Here's his dad, who dies in a blaze of glory and who's death povides a huge turning point for the story. Here's another Skywalker, but we're going to make him nameless and have him mercilessly slaughtered and make his death practically meaningless." Are you sure nothing about that sounds not quite right?

Not to mention that clearly the manner in which Force potential passes on from one generation to the next is extremely unpredictable.

The one scan you were presented with also showed three of them being cut down in one motion.

So I can blame you, if you have one scan and it contradicts your conclusion, then that's a problem on your end.

Requiring two in order to admit you're off when even the first one (which is simply a more detailed version of this one) disagrees with you is bad work.

The point, which you completely missed, is that having two scans depict the same thing lends credence to a more literal interpretation of the artwork. Having just one scan instead completely changes that.

Your argument is three people dying in a single set of attacks that takes less time than a sentence and where the people were clearly unable to block the first attacks isn't a speed thing.

Wherein, in *both* scans, the motions of Krayt's lightsabers and body is obviously depicted.

Your conclusion didn't appear to be based on any evidence whatsoever.

Insisting something is inadequate by ignoring presented data is simply not a good argument.

So you are suggesting that cutting down three Master level combatants in one moment is something done slowly? That is just ridiculous.

Something happening quickly =/= something achieved through superior speed.

You seem to be making a basic equivocational error here. The battle itself could have been quick without the action being quick. Cutting down 4 IKs in a few seconds is certainly indicative of a quick battle. But making, say, a dozen strikes in a few second, absolutely isn't indicative of quick combat speed (by Force user standards that's pretty tame). Yet the former can absolutely be achieved by the latter.

How about reading this again and maybe addressing it this time:

"Even if that was your interpretation, it doesn't mean he neccessarily blitzed them. The Knights may have landed hits on his back, in which case they would have been ineffectual and left the knights open to a swift counterattack. He may have just tore through their defences with sheer strength. He may have landed a few very well placed or timed shots, or there may have even been very brief exchanges. Or he may have even overwhelmed them with speed, but that doesn't necessarily entail blitz worthy speed."

It paints them as small but elite. Considering we're talking individual quality that's what's relevant to the question at hand.

The point is that it makes for a more shallow talent pool, which will reduce the number of their ranks at every level and make for a less competetive environment.

One, Jaina Solo Fel. Kinda a big Jedi name. Had access to the best Jedi teachings.

Was she allowed to just hand over Jedi artifacts and such, or could she only spread the Jedi's teachings by personally introducing that knowledge to the Order? Because big name or not, she was neither portrayed as a great scholar or a great weapons master.

Again, a recent Jedi Recruit, Azlyn Rae, even though her Jedi training was complete got additional training on top of that when joining them.

Again:

((that Azlyn Rae went through additional training to become an IK doesn't necessarily mean that the training was more advanced, but simply different.))

You seem to be trying this tactic where you ignore the counters I make to your points and then just repeat them constantly.

Two, we've seen their combatants in action. Antares Draco leaves piles of Sith bodies in his wake and clashes with the Sith Hands, members of Krayt's Inner Circle, and Ganner Krieg does as well. Jao Assim has huge force feats and solid saber work and he's a junior method. Treis Sinde, Azlyn Rae... basically they're demonstrated to be strong combatants.

Are these standard members or stand out members? I like that you try and judge the entire Order by the feats of some of the Order's best, yet you won't extend that same courtesy to, say, the BoD and it having members such as Bane, Kas'im and Kaox Krul.

They considered them a massive threat and this a possible suicide mission, where there was merely a *chance* at any of them escaping. The Jedi Temple had just been crushed by the Sith.

They were in fact guarding a decoy Emperor, because their job was to buy the Emperor time to get away.

But did they have the time and opportunity to gather some of their best numbers onto the job? This all ultimately boils down to the fact that you really can't prove that these IKs were in any way notable. The Jedi in team 2 very clearly are. Based on all available evidece, Krayt isn't just tearing through any of them.

Oh, they can do shatterpoints on any wounds, inanimate objects, etc..

They can see it at an extent to see life and death, but it's clearly the same general ability as Mace.

Mind you, simply greatly increasing someone's ability to see shatterpoints will still make them a more effective combatant in general.

You're not really addressing my argument at all at this moment.

Why would armor grant speed to begin with?

Did I said it would? I'm arguing that he didn't necessarily achieve the feat through superior speed at all.

I'm noticing a common thread in your arguments: You express doubt at something, and believe that stands in for proof.

You need to support your arguments with evidence. Merely doubt itself says nothing, if there is nothing supporting the doubt, then your argument is hollow.

We have no evidence supporting your doubt. We do have reason to believe otherwise, factors that we know increase abilities that are present without the armor.

Again:

"That's not how the burden of proof works. You are the one wishing to make a definitive interpretation from the comic and to that end it's your responsibility to be able to prove it. My claim is that it's inconclusive, and to that end all I need to do is cast doubt."

Jaina ‘Sword of the Jedi’ Solo wasn’t a notable weapons master? Ok.

In the sense of being a lightsaber instructor? No she wasn't as far as I know. The point is that she wasn't necessarily the best person to be able to pass on Jedi teachings to a new generation of students.

Well that shut you up. 😂

You waited four hours, you've shut precisely no-one up. When people stop talking, it'll purely be from boredom, your arguments are being shut down at every turn.

Originally posted by Appletonia
An explanation for how it qualifies as a hint but not a reference, please.

You being incredibly forgetful isn't a reason for me to stop making casual references to things when 99% of the time people understand exactly what I'm saying.

It's not my exact words that are important here but the context in which they were stated. We were disagreeing about something very specific that we had been having a discussion on in another thread barely a week before. I'm always going to assume that anybody I've engaged in a debate with will have the most basic recollection of our prior interactions.

You literally said 'the' other thread and the one with 'the scans.'

It barely even qualifies as a hint, there's no actual info in there. There's nothing to remember because you didn't reference anything with enough information to tell what you were referencing.

In the sense of being a lightsaber instructor? No she wasn't as far as I know. The point is that she wasn't necessarily the best person to be able to pass on Jedi teachings to a new generation of students.

We don't have any reason to believe she was bad at it, the Imperial Knights also picked up other Jedi over the years, and the Imperial Knights themselves show high capability in the modern day.

Your problems are really pretty hollow, you ask us to assume flaws and weaknesses rather than providing any evidence for them.

A few generations is practically nothing in the grand scheme of things when we're dealing with thousand year old organisations.

When Darth Zannah was trained, that was literally only the second generation of Rule of Two sith. She was still expertly trained.

They did not start from scratch. When an order gains it's training from other sources, they don't have to build from the ground up.

1. You can forgive me if I don't take you at your word at this point, given you flat out stated that simply being promoted to a Knight was the highest rank you could receive in the Order.

Not really what I said. I stated that being promoted to Imperial Knight is a high rank itself and the equivalent of master levels in other orders.

It isn't really a formal separate rank at that- That is to say, there's no Imperial Knights and Imperial Master Knights or Imperial Knight Masters. There are Imperial Knights. Imperial Knight Antares Draco is at the high rank. You'll just refer to him more casually as Master Draco, while you wouldn't call Jao Assim Master Assim.

Whether or not an IK gets called master doesn't actually seem to affect their responsibilities much, it's just a note of respect.

Nor, mind you, does it ignore that I've talked extensively on the power of even people just promoted to knight or referred to as Junior knights, like Jao Assim. Jao Assim was a tough fight for a Sith Lord of major rank in charge of a major project, and he's show massive TK ability. In short, Jao Assim, junior Imperial Knight, has more demonstrated power than Tott and Crado, by a good margin.

2. Clearly if the IKs that Krayt slaughtered didn't even possess the highest rank in the Order, and their role in protecting the Emperor, as described on the wookiepedia page, was completely standard for any fully trained IK, then we have no reason to believe these IKs were at all notable.

Master Mohgran Fel, head bodyguard, has more than the highest rank, he has a specific position of importance besides from specific rank.

And the other three likely weren't notable... but like I've also emphasized several times, even junior Imperial Knights like Maraisah Fel and Jao Assim show master-level capabilities by Jedi standards and show themselves to be dangerous combatants.

Anyway, this is really just you being obtuse. Most of your objections have already been addressed, and you largely spend your time making up new ones from scratch.

'Ah ha, there is a such thing as master level! That must mean the others are weak,' (Ignoring everything Q's said about the basic level of a junior Imperial Knight) and such.

And assuming they don't have good training because they were founded by.... Jaina Solo, massively skilled Jedi who simply hasn't explicitly taught. And ignoring the other Jedi in the order...

If that's all you've got, well, you simply don't have any objections of note. You can't rely on a combination of assuming unshown flaws and ignoring information that's already been stated for your arguments, and that's what your arguments are based on.

Every time you bring something up, I shoot it down, and then you just bring it up again ignoring what I've said.

That's no fun and I think you know full well you're just arguing for arguing at this point and that your points have already been answered in spades. Your objections to the IKs, Krayt, etc., just don't hold up.

At this point I believe my arguments stand on their own merits and nothing further needs to be added, but as you've brought up a few additional points I'll briefly respond to some of those.

When Darth Zannah was trained, that was literally only the second generation of Rule of Two sith. She was still expertly trained.

They did not start from scratch. When an order gains it's training from other sources, they don't have to build from the ground up.

I understand that but my point remains that the IK Order doesn't appear to have a particularly great lineage from those other sources by all available evidence. With the Rule of Two, Bane's knowledge has been extremely well documented; he obsessively memorised everything Kas'im had to teach him about all seven lightsaber forms, and he did the same with both Darth Revan and Freedon Nadd's holocrons, two of the single greatest sources of Sith teachings we've ever come across, not to mention numerous other sources of knowledge he sought out and gathered. Bane also comes across as being pratically destined to take on the role of leader and teacher. The IK Order, and Jaina Solo, by comparison, have not been documented to possess such a knowledge base. I wouldn't say Zannah was the absolute best people to judge the ROT's initial quality of training either, when it's made very clear that she's possessive of one of the most incredible connections to the Force we've ever seen. Perhaps she would have been far more powerful, if she had lived at a time where knowledge of Sith teachings were at their pinnacle.

Also, while not from a combat standpoint so much, the Rule of Two actually helps illustrate my point in the sense that one of its main points was that the Order would have to be extremely patient and wait many, many years before acting against the Jedi, so that they could gather as much knowledge as possible and refine their methods of decrecy and deception. I believe Sidious is referred to in many sources as a product of a thousand years of knowledge and teachings, so clearly, as far as the Order's main approach is concerned, being around for a lot longer than a mere few generations helped incredibly.

Nor, mind you, does it ignore that I've talked extensively on the power of even people just promoted to knight or referred to as Junior knights, like Jao Assim. Jao Assim was a tough fight for a Sith Lord of major rank in charge of a major project, and he's show massive TK ability. In short, Jao Assim, junior Imperial Knight, has more demonstrated power than Tott and Crado, by a good margin.

Which is clearly the exception rather than the rule. As I said, would you judge the BOD by the exploits of one of its students in Bane?

Master Mohgran Fel, head bodyguard, has more than the highest rank, he has a specific position of importance besides from specific rank.

Head bodyguard? According to the wookiepedia page he was a close confidant and one of the chief bodyguards, and it's certainly not hard to imagine that their familial connection would have factored in to Roan Fel being inclined to having him operate closely to him.

Just to clarify, I agree that Krayt's performance agaiunst the IKs was extremely impressive. Believe it or not I was one of the few people that first spoke up for Krayt when the comic first came out and people like Tempest were massively dismissive of him (this was at the main Star Wars forums a few years ago; he went by the name Tempest4Eva), and it was largely because of that feat which I found hugely impressive. My point is that these IKs are the very definition of featless nobodies and that the Jedi on team 2 were clearly portrayed as being exceptional Jedi, so I just don't think there's any comparison between the two. You're also making a massive assumption in thinking that Krayt simply blitzed them and are just being stubborn at this point in sticking with that interpretation and ignoring the implications of having lightsaber resistant armor. I will eventually read the entire Legacy series, but as it stands right now I also wouldn't be at all surprised if you've been massively exaggerating how much more powerful Reborn Krayt is than his armored counterpart.

Holy **** please let this topic continue to the next page so I don't have to side scroll any more...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Holy **** please let this topic continue to the next page so I don't have to side scroll any more...

😂 👆