Exar Kun vs Darth Krayt

Originally posted by Nephthys
With that much power he could have wiped out the Jedi Temple most likely.

I repeat: PIS/no real need/reason to. And being able to affect millions of beings at once doesn't necessarily mean he can take on thousands of Jedi at once.

I don't recall the DR draining millions of people at once. The fact is that if he had draining abilities on that scale he would have actually used them himself, outside of a ritual context.

I don't recall anything about the DR because it happened in some random game that nobody cares about that's probably S-Canon or something.

I repeat: PIS/no real need/reason to. And being able to affect millions of beings at once doesn't necessarily mean he can take on thousands of Jedi at once.

You lack feats to support that conjecture. He had the aid of a potent nexus when he drained them, a ritual, and thousands of willing Massassi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The feat is considerably less impressive when Kun was performing it in "temples of an ancient Sith design to focus great dark side energies." Until there evidence is offered that Kun could replicate the feat without such a favorable environment or preparation, I see no reason to assume he could. Sorry bro. 😬

You're assuming that the environment was favourable and that there was preparation.

The Massassi temples are explicitly designed to focus great dark side energies, so we know the environment was favorable; the narrator indicates that "thousands" (not millions) of Massassi were sacrificed; and Kun himself admits that he can't defeat the massed ranks of the Jedi pursuing him.

The feat isn't nearly as impressive as you made it out to be.

1. Yes, the temple collected the energy, but it didn't drain the energy out of the Massassi itself. That was Exar Kun's doing.

2. You're right, I just checked and it was thousands. Still extremely impressive. The difference in scale isn't really crucial to my argument.

Originally posted by appletonia
1. Yes, the temple collected the energy, but it didn't drain the energy out of the Massassi itself. That was Exar Kun's doing.

2. You're right, I just checked and it was thousands. Still extremely impressive. The difference in scale isn't really crucial to my argument.

Dark Lords of the Sith #4 and The Sith War #2 repeatedly mention the great power within the Yavin IV temples. Unless you have evidence to indicate Kun performed these feats of his own ability, I see no reason to assume he did and every reason to assume otherwise.

When have we ever had proof that any great feat was pulled off completely unaided? Who's to say Sidious didn't employ large amounts of prep or have a variety of artifacts on his person when performing all his great feats? Was he not a gifted alchemist and possessive of a wealth of Sith artifacts? Does anything explicitly state these things were not in place?

Originally posted by appletonia
When have we ever had proof that any great feat was pulled off completely unaided? Who's to say Sidious didn't employ large amounts of prep or have a variety of artifacts on his person when performing all his great feats? Was he not a gifted alchemist and possessive of a wealth of Sith artifacts? Does anything explicitly state these things were not in place?

I discount any and all feats in a combat scenario that Sidious performs in the presence of dark side nexuses and in the presence of arcana known to enhance such powers. {Any and all of his feats performed while on Byss, for example.}

Exar Kun performed this feat inside a temple steeped in dark side energy and designed specifically to channel such things. He hasn't performed a similar feat outside it. Therefore, we have more reason to believe the temple aided him than not.

Sidious is a nexus though.

That's true. He's a badass that way.

We've seen the temple's devices and we know that they needed power to function, which Exar provided by draining the Massassi. You haven't proven that there were any other devices there that directly aided Exar's drain, and the original source material makes no indication of such. You assuming that the temple provided Exar some additional devices is no different to me assuming that Sidious had a Sith amulet or two hidden underneath his robes at all times. If anything, we know that Sidious probably had access to them and not utilising them wouldn't have been a tactically sound decision.

On the subject of nexuses, they don't appear to be a particularly rare commodity (there are a huge number of battles that take place at locations described as being particularly strong in the light/darkside) and yet we still hardly ever see feats of such a magnitude being performed. So the feat's pretty damn spectacular regardless. Similarly, we have cases of people being on nexuses and seemingly not being drastically more powerful (Dooku, while on an extremely potent darkside nexus, was still no match for Yoda, who himself let us remind ourselves routinely has to heavily exert himself to perform low level telekinesis in G-Canon sources).

There's no proof that the temple needed Kun to provide power in order aid the ritual, we know that the temples themselves were steeped in such energy thanks to the narration and were designed to focus it. We know Kun was in such a temple when he performed the drain. He never performs a similar feat without such circumstances.

Your assumptions regarding Sidious constitute a leap rather than a reasonable inference.

And you'd need to prove that Yavin is typical of other nexuses and that the corresponding boost would be equally negligible. (Consider that a troupe of half-trained Jedi apprentices were able to tap into the power of the Massassi temple to hurl a fleet of Star Destroyers out of the star systems.)

All evidence points to Kun being amped and amped considerably. Until you provide proof to indicate the contrary, there's nothing more to discuss.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Probably around the same. Though Malgus has more displays of sheer raw power, such as destroying ships with a force scream, and his last performance against the jedi strike team, but I don't know the full circumstances of both those feats. Force scream his usually rage induced, which to me is no different than Savage momentarily manhandling both Dooku and Ventress in a fit of rage, something I look at as a one-off feat but also a display of his own sheer raw power. As far as Malgus's last performance against the strike team, I'm not sure if it was a result of similar circumstance. Enlighten me, NewGuy.

Aside from those feats, I'd place Malgus just a bit below.

IIRC that instance was in Book of the Sith, his force scream also had enough power to rattle transparisteel, shatter the ear drums of his crew, and shake the walls and ceiling of the castle he was in before he killed Adraas. Going back into Deceived he also was able to hold back Zeerid's shuttle before it took off with a force grip

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]There's no proof that the temple needed Kun to provide power in order aid the ritual,

What do you think the Massassi were there for??

"Drained from thousands of Massassi sacrifices..."

"...The power is rising."

"The ritual begun..."

"...Sith Power Objects released!"

It's made pretty clear that energy from the Massassi sacrifices were being used to power the temple's devices.

we know that the temples themselves were steeped in such energy thanks to the narration and were designed to focus it. We know Kun was in such a temple when he performed the drain. He never performs a similar feat without such circumstances.

Freezing the senate was certainly a similar feat, when looking at the scale of it.

Your assumptions regarding Sidious constitute a leap rather than a reasonable inference.

No more so than your assumptions regarding the temple. As I've already pointed out, he had access to those kinds of resources and not utilising them would not have been particularly smart. Especially when we have evidence of him using such objects during some of his high end feats (in Sithisis for example he utilises this weird Sith Crystal).

And you'd need to prove that Yavin is typical of other nexuses and that the corresponding boost would be equally negligible.

I was making a general remark toward the blanket nexus defence people at this forum typically use. Sure, not all nexuses are the same, but there isn't really any evidence that would suggest any of them provide such a substantial boost as some of you like to claim, nor is there any evidence to suggest that the Yavin IV temples were particularly potent nexuses.

(Consider that a troupe of half-trained Jedi apprentices were able to tap into the power of the Massassi temple to hurl a fleet of Star Destroyers out of the star systems.)

I'm going to have to ask for proof of this, seeing as I've seen the feat referred to numerous times and this is the first I'm hearing about the Jedi tapping into the temples specifically.

All evidence points to Kun being amped and amped considerably. Until you provide proof to indicate the contrary, there's nothing more to discuss.

Hardly. There's no real evidence that it was a substantial boost, and the feat is completely consistent with the power he demonstrates when he froze the senate, which was not on a darkside nexus.

Originally posted by carthage
You lack feats to support that conjecture. He had the aid of a potent nexus when he drained them, a ritual, and thousands of willing Massassi.

Incorrect, the comic clearly shows that he absorbed the Massassi, just like he did to their children to create the Golden globe and then used that to empower the Sith apparatus which unleashed his spirit.

Originally posted by appletonia
What do you think the Massassi were there for??

"Drained from thousands of Massassi sacrifices..."

"...The power is rising."

"The ritual begun..."

"...Sith Power Objects released!"

It's made pretty clear that energy from the Massassi sacrifices were being used to power the temple's devices.

No one is denying that the energy provided by the Massassi mass sacrifice was being used to power the devices to complete Kun's ritual. The problem is that the temples were architecturally designed to harness Force use to begin with, meaning that we have no way of knowing if Kun could duplicate the feat without such favorable environment or other form of preparation/enhancement.

Tl;dr: Kun performed the feat in a place specifically designed to augment Force use; we can't attribute it to his natural powers or assume he can duplicate it elsewhere without such means.

Originally posted by appletonia
Freezing the senate was certainly a similar feat, when looking at the scale of it.

The means of which are unknown, other than a vague reference to a Sith spell.

Originally posted by appletonia
No more so than your assumptions regarding the temple. As I've already pointed out, he had access to those kinds of resources and not utilising them would not have been particularly smart. Especially when we have evidence of him using such objects during some of his high end feats (in Sithisis for example he utilises this weird Sith Crystal).

False. We know Kun performed this particular feat in a location designed to bolster such actions and Kun has not performed this particular feat in a neutral environment. We do not know that Sidious performed those feats with some sort of supernatural aid (Sithisis notwithstanding), you are merely speculating that this is the case. We have more reason to question Kun's feats than we do Sidious's, that's just a fact. 😬

Originally posted by appletonia
I was making a general remark toward the blanket nexus defence people at this forum typically use. Sure, not all nexuses are the same, but there isn't really any evidence that would suggest any of them provide such a substantial boost as some of you like to claim, nor is there any evidence to suggest that the Yavin IV temples were particularly potent nexuses.

The blanket nexus defense holds because any feat a character performs on a nexus cannot be attributed to be the product of that Force user's natural abilities, whether it's Kun or Sidious or anyone in between.

Neb
I'm going to have to ask for proof of this, seeing as I've seen the feat referred to numerous times and this is the first I'm hearing about the Jedi tapping into the temples specifically.

Dorsk 81 rose to his feet. "These temples were built long ago by the Massassi. We have learned," he nodded to Tionne, "that their original purpose was to serve as a focus for the energies that the Dark Lords of the Sith manipulated. We can use these temples for a similar purpose-but to serve the light side, to protect ourselves.

"I will go to the top of this temple and be the focal point for all of your energies. We will join together, some thirty of us bound by the Force."

Dorsk 81 raised his voice. Inner power grew in him as he spoke. He had never before desired leadership of any kind, but now he no longer felt like a follower. He felt strong and driven.

"Pool your resources, and I will draw from you, channel it through myself, and push out just as I did with that scout walker. I'll shove them away, tumble them end over end, knock the Star Destroyers far from here."

Neb
Hardly. There's no real evidence that it was a substantial boost,

Kun performed this feat in a Massassi temple. Massassi temples were designed for such things and enabled a group of half-trained Padawans to hurl a fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers out of a solar system. That's a hell of a boost.

Neb
and the feat is completely consistent with the power he demonstrates when he froze the senate, which was not on a darkside nexus.

The circumstances, means, and methods of which are unknown.

The means of which are unknown, other than a vague reference to a Sith spell.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Yea, you kinda need to stop downplaying everything you deem unknown, especially if it's impressive. I don't see you doing the same for Palpatine.

Me, on this very same page
I discount any and all feats in a combat scenario that Sidious performs in the presence of dark side nexuses and in the presence of arcana known to enhance such powers. {Any and all of his feats performed while on Byss, for example.}

Me, on this very same page
The blanket nexus defense holds because any feat a character performs on a nexus cannot be attributed to be the product of that Force user's natural abilities, whether it's Kun or Sidious or anyone in between.

Behold, I provide two examples on this very page of me holding Kun and Sidious to the exact same standard. For the record, I do and have called into question Sidious's ability to duplicate broad displays of Force power in a combat scenario without aid of nexus or preparation (e.g., planetary Force corruption/drain a la Byss, blunting the precognition and farsight of 10k Jedi on a galactic scale, etc.).

Originally posted by psmith81992
Everything else is fine.

It's all fine. It would help, though, if you'd slow down and read. As usual, I cover my ass like a boss and Palpatine's supremacy continues to endure.

Temp, the point remains that all that is being stated is that the temples helped focus Force energies (and not that they provided power), which is completely consistent with Exar Kun focusing the energy he drained from the Massassi for the specific purpose of carrying out the ritual. It does not necessarily account for the draining of the Massassi itself, and you are assuming an additional boost. Again, in the comic itself, the temple's devices are only ever implied to be in place after the Massassi were already being drained.

Regarding your point about freezing the senate, refer to any high end feat by Sidious (or practically anyone), ever.

Originally posted by appletonia
Temp, the point remains that all that is being stated is that the temples helped focus Force energies (and not that they provided power), which is completely consistent with Exar Kun focusing the energy he drained from the Massassi for the specific purpose of carrying out the ritual. It does not necessarily account for the draining of the Massassi itself, and you are assuming an additional boost. Again, in the comic itself, the temple's devices are only ever implied to be in place after the Massassi were already being drained.

Not at all. The architecture of the Massassi temples are specifically designed to aid the Force user in whatever Force feats he or she performs whilst in or on it. That's the entire point. Whether or not said Force user could achieve the same feat without them is unknown (unless we have proof via event or narration that he or she could do just that). And even if he or she could achieve the same feat, would it be identical? Or as easily? Does it have any relevance to a duel without prior preparation or favorable environment? These are pertinent concerns to this thread. I don't "downplay" the feat. It is indeed impressive, though not necessarily in the context of a duel or even with respect to Kun's natural power.

These are also concerns for which you have absolutely no answer other than speculation.

Originally posted by appletonia
Regarding your point about freezing the senate, refer to any high end feat by Sidious (or practically anyone), ever.

Most of those high end feats aren't applicable to a duel.