Darth Malgus/Darth Maul SOD vs. Mace Windu/Obi Wan ROTS

So if Kenobi can't defeat Maul on his own fighting for well over a minute, in a fight Kenobi was completely prepared and focused for but Maul still wasn't in prime shape, then it's damn well common sense Kenobi would get destroyed by both brothers under normal circumstances 10/10.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's lame sense. Kenobi is a Soresu practitioner, judging by how quickly he can defeat someone will never work. His advantages are his defensive skills that allow to survive, not offensive skills that allow to defeat someone quickly.

Yes but if he's occupied defending against Just Maul for over a minute, with both of them struggling (according to the Novel at least) then I really don't see how he has a chance when you add in Opress. Especially with the Brothers combined TK involved which Soresu has no defense against.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
These developments amuse me. POWER, you've done a total 180 in the past 6 months on Maul/Kenobi. I am pleased by your edification.

Lesson learned: always defer to my judgment.

You do realize I haven't actually said Maul beats Kenobi right? Besides I've always held Maul can beat Kenobi with TK involved.

But yes I see Maul and Kenobi's Saber prowess being much closer now than I did a Year ago (not 6 months).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
These developments amuse me. POWER, you've done a total 180 in the past 6 months on Maul/Kenobi. I am pleased by your edification.

Lesson learned: always defer to my judgment.

What do you think? I know you realize that Kenobi's fight with the bros was a one-off fight and very circumstantial, but who do you think would win in a one on one fight under normal circumstances between Obi Wan and Maul?

Me, personally, I think Maul would take a pretty solid victory if he is aiming to kill and fully unleashes himself on Kenobi. Maybe not as easily as Dooku, but pretty solidly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but if he's occupied defending against Just Maul for over a minute, with both of them struggling (according to the Novel at least) then I really don't see how he has a chance when you add in Opress. Especially with the Brothers TK involved which Soresu has no defense against.

As of TK, yes, that's what probably will grant them win 10/10. I believe that Kenobi can defend their TK but as fight progresses he will eventually get tired to the point that he will be unable to defend against their TK.

Originally posted by Arhael
Strictly saber speaking Kenobi can fight both Opress and Maul simultaneously - that's realization of his exceptional defensive skills. I doubt Maul would be able to survive two opponents of similar caliber like Kenobi did. I was complaining only about sabers part. 🙂

As of TK, yes, that's what probably will grant them win 10/10. I believe that Kenobi can defend their TK but as fight progresses he will eventually get tired to the point that he will be unable to defend against their TK.

👆

I was only talking about All -Out, and with standard weapons.

As far as I can see no one's split this discussion into Sabers only with Kenobi going all Jar Kai.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's lame sense. Kenobi is a Soresu practitioner, judging by how quickly he can defeat someone will never work. His advantages are his defensive skills that allow to survive, not offensive skills that allow to defeat someone quickly.

This doesn't make any sense. You're not going to purposely draw out a fight just because you're a defensive fighter.

@DP, I think that's what Temp is talking about. You used to place Kenobi on a similar level to Dooku and even Sidious in regards to saber dueling based on his performance against the bros in the cave.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

@DP, I think that's what Temp is talking about. You used to place Kenobi on a similar level to Dooku and even Sidious in regards to saber dueling based on his performance against the bros in the cave.

I know but I always gave Maul a shot in an all out. And so far no one's discussed Sabers only here.

Also since then I've seen Dooku beating Kenobi pretty solidly without TK in TCW Season 6.

Originally posted by Arhael
I doubt Maul would be able to survive two opponents of similar caliber like Kenobi did. I was complaining only about sabers part.

Ventress has fought off both Anakin and Kenobi more than once. In her last fight against them, she actually took Kenobi out within the first few seconds.

Explain that to me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also since then I've seen Dooku beating Kenobi pretty solidly without TK in TCW Season 6.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ventress has fought off both Anakin and Kenobi more than once. In her last fight against them, she actually took Kenobi out within the first few seconds.

Explain that to me.

He attacked Ventress, got kicked. He attacked Maul, got kicked. Attacked Dooku, got kicked. Attacked Grievous, got kicked. It's rather consistent.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I know but I always gave Maul a shot in an all out. And so far no one's discussed Sabers only here.

Also since then I've seen Dooku beating Kenobi pretty solidly without TK in TCW Season 6.

Everyone's opinion can change so I don't hold that against you.

Out of curiosity though, had Dooku not have beaten the shit out of Kenobi in season 6, would you still place Kenobi on his level in regards to saber prowess?

Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi does not have good offensive skill. Every time he plays offensive game, opponents take advantage of it.

He attacked Ventress, got kicked. He attacked Maul, got kicked. Attacked Dooku, got kicked. Attacked Grievous, got kicked. It's rather consistent.

The novel actually indicates that Kenobi was fighting offensively during his fight against the bros in the cave.

Regardless, that's a pretty lame excuse. Kenobi isn't that horrible of a fighter. The whole point of being good in defense while aiming to defeat your opponent, would be your ability to counterattack, unless there is a huge gap between you and your opponent and you're being completely overwhelmed/overpowered. You're acting as if Kenobi only knows how to block, and if that's the case then he should never be able to win a duel.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Everyone's opinion can change so I don't hold that against you.

Out of curiosity though, had Dooku not have beaten the shit out of Kenobi in season 6, would you still place Kenobi on his level in regards to saber prowess?

No because I calmed down with the Kenobi >> Maul in Sabers quite a while ago. Well before Season 6.

But before seeing that S6 fight I would have placed Kenobi under Dooku but only by a small amount. Or maybe Dooku >/= Kenobi in Sabers. Because I didn't think there would be much of a gap between Dooku and Maul in Sabers. And Kenobi has some impressive feats in ROTS against Grievous and Sith Anakin. Then the Maul/Opress cave feat was probably better than both those ROTS feats. Plus there's all his hype as The Master of Soresu and what not.

Now after Season 6 I place Dooku solidly above both Maul and Kenobi. Because I just can't put Maul > Kenobi in Sabers (and Maul's one of my favorite characters), simply because he's struggled against Kenobi too much too often. And that's where I still give Kenobi a lot of credit. To be a peer of Maul and capable of battering Opress like that, I do still place Kenobi above the vast majority of the Council Members.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No because I calmed down with the Kenobi >> Maul in Sabers quite a while ago. Well before Season 6.

But before seeing that S6 fight I would have placed Kenobi under Dooku but only by a small amount. Or maybe Dooku >/= Kenobi in Sabers. Because I didn't think there would be much of a gap between Dooku and Maul in Sabers. And Kenobi has some impressive feats in ROTS against Grievous and Sith Anakin. Then the Maul/Opress cave feat was probably better than both those ROTS feats. Plus there's all his hype as The Master of Soresu and what not.

Now after Season 6 I place Dooku solidly above both Maul and Kenobi. Because I just can't put Maul > Kenobi in Sabers (and Maul's one of my favorite characters), simply because he's struggled against Kenobi too much too often. And that's where I still give Kenobi a lot of credit. To be a peer of Maul and capable of battering Opress like that, I do still place Kenobi above the vast majority of the Council Members.

Ah, I see.

I disagree with a lot in your post, but don't feel like getting into it at the moment, so perhaps another time. Besides, I think you and I have already debated it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The novel actually indicates that Kenobi was fighting offensively during his fight against the bros in the cave.

Regardless, that's a pretty lame excuse.

Kenobi isn't that horrible of a fighter. The whole point of being good in defense while aiming to defeat your opponent, would be your ability to counterattack. You're acting as if Kenobi only knows how to block, and if that's the case then he should never be able to win a duel.

You are correct about defending and counterattacking. However, it doesn't apply, when he initiates attacks himself. In order to attack you need to close in to your opponent, which puts you off-balance. When you defend, your posture is solid, which allows you to block attack and immediately respond with a kick.

At 2:30:
YouTube video
You see what happens when Kenobi attacks. Same thing happened, when he and Anakin fought Dooku. Imitated one attack, got kicked, initiated another attack - got hip-thrown.

Indeed, this style rarely gives Kenobi victory, which is lame. But that's how it is. You know what Soresu is about, should I dig up description for you?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Very very debatable. They both faced disadvantages. Although Maul's seems greater to me, but either way those disadvantages can't be quantified in numbers like say Kenobi had a 5/10 disadvantage whilst Maul had a 7/10.

But Maul won that one.

Maul's unfamiliarity is off-set by his legs being super-strong and cybernetic. Obi-Wan's disadvantage wasn't mitigated like that.

Only through Dun Moch.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? That's Maul's main style as well (Pre-TCW). It was his chosen style and thereby the style he was most adept in. But yeah he can handle a Single Saber as well just fine.

Whereas Ventress CONSISTENTLY fights off BOTH Obi-Wan and Anakin with 1 Lightsaber each. Because she fights them together. So your being ridiculous saying she can't fight well against a SINGLE Opponent with a SINGLE Lightsaber.

Maul was highly adept at using a single lightsaber though. It was his original choice in his training and he seemed to favor it enough that he didn't bother replacing it with a double after his return. Ventress has always favored dual-blades.

No, she doesn't fight them with one lightsaber each, she uses dual/double-bladed lightsabers to fight them both at the same time. It's not the same thing. You're being ridiculous if you can't see how she would be disadvantaged using a lightsaber style she doesn't normally use.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ventress and Obi-Wan both admitted they were losing that fight. She wasn't KO'd before the fight or taken by surprise, so stop making excuses for her.

That Ventress was losing to Opress hardly matters in this thread anyway. So lets agree to disagree and move on. Although she didn't have much trouble with holding off Maul, I must say.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So because he wasn't expecting Opress to be there is enough reason to lose a fight that badly?

Opress is an opponent you need to be prepared to fight against. His great strength is such that unless you're ready for it you can be overwhelmed, like Dooku. Obi-Wan was also boxed in by Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh so Obi-Wan "looking at where Maul is" costs him the fight against Opress? That's the 3rd time Kenobi failed to overpower Opress. And the first 2 times he had Anakin helping him, so Opress had to do more that just "look" at another opponent.

Ok so Obi-Wan is weaker than Savage Opress now, is he? How interesting.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I understand that Obi-Wan was taken by surprise, but it wasn't exactly a "sucker punch" and again, this is against an Opponent who Maul completely embarrasses, with no difficulty whatsoever. Kenobi also consistently struggles against Ventress who was outmatched by Opress. And Kenobi has never actually put Maul down in direct combat since Maul's revival. And Maul is still alive so has just as much room to improve between TCW and ROTS as Kenobi does.

So your statement of: "No version of Maul being able to handle ROTS Kenobi", is completely baseless. I mean we are talking about the guy that got Force tooled by Count Dooku, knowing full well Maul is a bit of a TK Beast himself. And frankly I've not even seen evidence to give Kenobi a vast majority over Maul even in a Saber only match.

Yeah, you're right. Maul can clearly embarrass Obi-Wan like he did with Opress oh no wait Obi-Wan completely embarrassed both of them at the same time. Ventress also had no problems fighting Maul and wasn't embarrassed. Just because Obi-Wan hasn't killed him doesn't mean he can't. Both have been forced to run away from the other once. But unlike Maul, Obi-Wan is known to have continually improved. By RotS he'd better than Maul.

Dooku is superior to Maul, so that hardly suggests Maul can replicate that. And I've never said that Obi-Wan is vastly better, just that he is better. When Obi-Wan was fighting with a clear head and in it to win it he tooled Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by Arhael
The novel is retconned by TCW, where he is clearly defending.

If it is a lame excuse, then explain. How comes Dooku struggles against Opress/Ventress duo, even gets disarmed, while heavily relying on Force attacks, while Kenobi fares better against more powerful Maul/Opress duo without luxury of using Force attacks?

Kenobi is indeed not a horrible fighter. He's got exceptional defensive skills but mediocre offensive skills. Every fighter has advantages and disadvantages. Kenobi realizes his advantages, when he is playing defensive game but does lousy job, when he is required to fight offensively.

You are correct about defending and counterattacking. However, it doesn't apply, when he initiates attacks himself. In order to attack you need to close in to your opponent, which puts you off-balance. When you defend, your posture is solid, which allows you to block attack and immediately respond with a kick.

At 2:30:
YouTube video
You see what happens when Kenobi attacks. Same thing happened, when he and Anakin fought Dooku. Imitated one attack, got kicked, initiated another attack - got hip-thrown.

Indeed, this style rarely gives Kenobi victory, which is lame. But that's how it is. You know what Soresu is about, should I dig up description for you?

Kenobi being a soresu master and preferring it over any other style doesn't mean he is restricted to it. Any skilled saber duelist should not be restricted to his form.

The novel was not retconned by the series. The episode clearly shows Kenobi fighting far more aggressive than usual, as he was constantly attacking in order to keep both opponents separated.

Dooku struggled against an inferior duo because he was seemingly taken by surprise by Savage's strength and clearly viewed it as a threat throughout the rest of the fight, so instead of risking being tired out by defending against Savage's brute strength, he relied on heavy force usage. Not to mention that Ventress and Savage were aiming and determined to kill Dooku, whereas the bros were aiming to capture Kenobi, which makes a huge difference. However, I don't feel like getting into a debate about that, as you're not someone willing to concede to something so obvious. Dooku also wasn't underestimated as Kenobi was, and has proven that neither Ventress nor Savage are a match for him one on one, whereas Kenobi has been beaten by both bros one on one.

I think you're just trying to lowball Kenobi's opponent's good performances against him, which you consider as being consistent, while trying to come up with tons of excuses for Kenobi being on the losing end at times to those opponents, instead of just accepting that Kenobi's opponents are just that good.

Originally posted by ares834
Over analyzing. You can do so for Kenobi as well.
👆

No, I'm really not.

Quite blatantly trolling here

Still want Kenobi to be Maul level one day so he can kill him, though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul was highly adept at using a single lightsaber though. It was his original choice in his training and he seemed to favor it enough that he didn't bother replacing it with a double after his return. Ventress has always favored dual-blades.

Or he didn't "bother" replacing it with a Double Bladed Saber because you don't just buy Sabers at your corner shop. But he showed in his final fight with Sidious his Jar Kai skills are still better than his single blade fencing skills.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, she doesn't fight them with one lightsaber each, she uses dual/double-bladed lightsabers to fight them both at the same time. It's not the same thing. You're being ridiculous if you can't see how she would be disadvantaged using a lightsaber style she doesn't normally use.

Because she uses 2 Lightsabers to fight off Multiple Opponents at the same time. And your right it's not exactly the same thing as fighting one opponent with a Single Saber, because it's actually HARDER.

She consistently fights 2 Jedi simultaneously with one sword each, having to concentrate on 2 Opponents. So imagine how much easier it is to only concentrate on a Single opponent with a Single lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That Ventress was losing to Opress hardly matters in this thread anyway. So lets agree to disagree and move on. Although she didn't have much trouble with holding off Maul, I must say.

Not surprising given that was Maul's first Lightsaber fight in 10+years. But ok with the rest.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Opress is an opponent you need to be prepared to fight against. His great strength is such that unless you're ready for it you can be overwhelmed, like Dooku. Obi-Wan was also boxed in by Maul.

Dooku tried blocking Opress with 1 arm, and was only disarmed when he hit the wall behind him. But it's not like I'm even arguing Opress > Kenobi in Sabers. Because I'm not. I'm arguing this crazy assertion that TCW/SOD/ROTS Maul can't stand up to ROTS Kenobi.

Considering Kenobi's very inconsistent history, and Maul's TK Prowess, and the fact that Maul has never gone down to Kenobi in direct Saber combat anyway, that's quite a Bold statement to make to say the least.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, you're right. Maul can clearly embarrass Obi-Wan like he did with Opress oh no wait Obi-Wan completely embarrassed both of them at the same time. Ventress also had no problems fighting Maul and wasn't embarrassed. Just because Obi-Wan hasn't killed him doesn't mean he can't. Both have been forced to run away from the other once. But unlike Maul, Obi-Wan is known to have continually improved. By RotS he'd better than Maul.

When did Obi-Wan embarrass Maul? Exactly how did he embarrass him? Did he floor him, disarm him, KO him? Did he Force choke him. Actually wait, wasn't it Maul who did all those things to Kenobi? Didn't Ventress also do all those things to Kenobi while fighting off Skywalker? Hmm. If Kenobi "completely embarrassed" Maul, then I'd like to hear the words you describe to what Ventress did to Kenobi.

Ventress had no problem fighting a newly revived Maul whose not fought in 10+ years. And you know what, she still didn't look like his superior. Yes the same Ventress that Kenobi has always struggled against without being out of lightsaber combat for 10+years.

I'd like to see you Prove that Kenobi improved from Season 5/6 TCW to ROTS. I really would. I mean his S5 fight against the brothers is by far his best feat in case you hadn't noticed.

Again your argument that he's better by ROTS is baseless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku is superior to Maul, so that hardly suggests Maul can replicate that. And I've never said that Obi-Wan is vastly better, just that he is better. When Obi-Wan was fighting with a clear head and in it to win it he tooled Maul and Savage.

No you said Maul can't beat Obi-Wan. That's suggesting he's Vastly better.

Even your saying Kenobi is better is Baseless. Throughout this conversation you've not actually pointed to anything, not even one thing that proves ROTS Kenobi is better, except to say that he is. You'll need to up your game pal, because right now you just look like your playing favorites (or least favorites as it may be in this case).

LOL Kenobi never "Tooled" Maul.