Job Searching

So I'm becoming something of an expert on this recently, out of necessity. It's been a fascinating experience, truthfully, and I'm not nearly as frightened as I was at the beginning of my search, which is the first hardcore job search I've ever had to do. And it's something everyone does at some point; and most of us will switch jobs multiple times in our lives, so it's a useful knowledge set to have.

First and foremost, this is a thread for people to share their stories, experiences, and advice. But below, I'm going to share some of my own.

- Online job searches are the most ubiquitous. Indeed.com, Monster, and Career Builder are big 3. Most states also have state-run job search programs, and several cities will have local versions of the same services.

- Application Tracking Systems (ATS) are used frequently by employers. And based on the way they save and prioritize resumes, there is a heavy element of SEO (Search Engine Optimization) involved with it. A Google search on ATS is the easiest way, and it will give you dozens of tips and tools for optimizing your online resume (which should be formatted much differently than one you'd hand to someone in person).

- The other big avenue is networking. This is scarier, because it involves, ya know, networking. However, most cities will have numerous organizations dedicated to networking. Some are geared toward businesses, others specifically for job seekers. Check with your nearest Chamber of Commerce for some sturdy leads on groups and meetings. Then dress up, have a 1-minute pitch for yourself, and stay positive, and the ball starts rolling. I've met quite a few interesting people, and it's been valuable professionally as well. And it's exponential...networking begets networking. So the more things you do, the more people you'll be put in contact with as a result, and your "network" can expand quite rapidly due to this effect.

- There's a wealth of info out there on resumes, interviewing, phone interviewing, negotiating for salary, etc. so I won't get into it here. A ton of info is available online, though, much of it unbeknownst to the general population.

...

Thus far, about 2.5 months in, I've applied for about 50 jobs, interviewed for 6, turned down one job offer, and met with 3 businesspeople who want to work with me in some capacity on freelance projects. The interviews are from a mix of online and networking leads, while the freelance work is entirely from networking. And 4/6 of the interviews are still in the interviewing process, so they remain possible openings. I don't expect to remain on the market much longer, but I also can't boast any full-time offers yet (other than the one I turned down), so my fingers remain crossed.

I'll post individual resources and links if this thread sparks any discussion. Until then...

What are your experiences?

What jobs are you applying for, what's your background and why did you turn down the one job offer?

I don't have any experience applying for jobs I've been working in our family business all my "career", and have recently started my own business. I have however interviewed and hired a couple people.

My situation is somewhat similar to Bardock's so I never really had to look for a job. I guess the closest thing I had to a job interview is talking to this guy at a job fair who kept trying to get me to tell him which and how much drugs I do(I don't). That was an... interesting... experience.

My experience with it is applying for everything and anything, doing awful jobs for a while but then lucking out by getting an interview for a job I really wanted and getting the job. Since then I've moved to another job in the same industry and I'm very happy with how it's gone.

I think it completely depends on what sort of jobs you're searching for, but it can never hurt to be doing interesting things outside of just work. If it can relate to the job(s) you're going for (however tenuously), then all the better.

In what I do a lot of companies use recruitment agencies for most or all of their hiring. My advice would be to find out who these agencies are, impress them as much as you can with your conversational ability and be eloquent when discussing your experience and they'll get you interviews and job offers in no time.

Right now I have my career path set out for me. It's fairly easy to find a job teaching English Composition at the University level simply because it's a class that's required for almost all incoming freshman in basically every university in the country so there are A LOT of comp classes to teach. I intend to teach comp classes after I get my MFA until I can move up to better things like teaching Creative Writing or Literature.

Of course if I get a novel published and it becomes a best seller that would also be nice.

Originally posted by Bardock42
What jobs are you applying for, what's your background and why did you turn down the one job offer?

I don't have any experience applying for jobs I've been working in our family business all my "career", and have recently started my own business. I have however interviewed and hired a couple people.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Sounds like you should hire Digi.

Originally posted by Digi
What are your experiences?

I'll share my most recent experience.

The most interviews I've ever had while job searching is 2. This happened last year when I was ready to leave my last job. I interviewed for an IT Project Manager's position for a regional bank. Those places pay ridiculously awesome. I didn't get the job. 🙁 That manager who interviewed me hired my older more experienced colleague (good for him...sort of). He quit 3 months into the job. 😬

The second group I interviewed hired me and that's where I am, today. I'll tell the story because there are two things I did in the interview that set me apart from the other candidates.

The interview happened with a group of 5 people sitting around a boardroom table. They made me sit at the head of the table. It seemed very intimidating, at first. It was probably the scariest interview I've ever been in. The beginning was a bit rough and I was not answering the questions as well as I could have. But, all turned out well when I asked to take my jacket off. One of the people in the interview dramatically sighed and said, "Thank GOD you finally loosened up. Now we can all take our jackets off." That was the executive project manager. 😐 From then on, I felt much more relaxed, gave much better answers to their questions, and got them to laugh a few times.

I nailed the utter living shit out of that damn interview when they asked how I would stand up and mature ITIL best practices in their organization. I looked around the room, saw nothing large to draw on, and asked them if they had a dry erase board somewhere. The CIO chuckled, walked out, and came back in with a large, on-wheels, dry-erase board (it was dead silent while he was gone...I think they had no idea what I was doing and maybe thought I was going to do something stupid...they had never experienced this in an interview, before). When he, the CIO, handed me the dry-erase marker, I got up, walked to the board, and I then started walking the group through how I would stand up ITIL Best Practices (*read this in a pompous British voice*: obviously, I started with the Configuration Management Database). As I drew out the maturation process flow, some of them asked questions about what some of the stuff I was talking about (because they genuinely didn't know) and I explained those things to them and used comparisons to convey some of the more absurd ITIL concepts. I was stopped at about halfway through; the CIO laughingly said he was convinced and I didn't need to continue (he later explained that this was a trick question to see if a person would try and lie their way through the question and also to see how well someone could answer an absurdly complex question under pressure). And the whole bus cheered.

Another thing that helped was that I also admitted in the interview, which is why the executive project manager told me he chose me out of the candidates, that I was not very familiar with the ITIL V3 framework as I have been working in the V2 framework for 6 years. He valued honesty and integrity more than he did some IT bozo's ability to rattle of techno-babble.

Anyway, so the advice is to be very outgoing if your job is going to require you be put on the spot in a room full of executives (or do presentations to strangers such as sales jobs). Keep your cool, be confident, NEVER talk down to your interviewers, and make sure you're applying for a job that fits your skills and experience. Also, do something that stands out. None of the other candidates, some of them with decades of IT Project Management experience, thought to ask for a dry erase board to draw out a process flow. I was hired over the other candidates, despite not having my Bachelors degrees quite yet (the job required a minimum of a bachelors).

If you're not outgoing, be outgoing. Practice with friends and family.

I can give some more advice from an interviewers perspective. I did the math and I probably conducted a bit over 1000 interviews at my previous job. I've got plenty of dos and don'ts that some may find helpful. I'm tired, and I have to poop, so I am going to poop and go to bed.

Originally posted by chillmeisterII
In what I do a lot of companies use recruitment agencies for most or all of their hiring. My advice would be to find out who these agencies are, impress them as much as you can with your conversational ability and be eloquent when discussing your experience and they'll get you interviews and job offers in no time.

Corporate "headhunters" will also find you if you build a nice network of friends on LinkedIn and you have highly sought-after qualifications. I've been contacted several times this past year by corporate recruiters. They seem quite fierce: almost like car-salesmen.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Sounds like you should hire Digi.

Yeah, definitely, I will.

What does he do again?

Originally posted by dadudemon
... And the whole bus cheered. ...

Very good, pre-emptive, self-deprecation...made your post better. You've got the job!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Corporate "headhunters" will also find you if you build a nice network of friends on LinkedIn and you have highly sought-after qualifications. I've been contacted several times this past year by corporate recruiters. They seem quite fierce: almost like car-salesmen.

Yeah, I usually ignore those people as they're nearly always offering me something I have no interest in. Linkedin can definitely be handy, though.

I suppose a lot of it depends on your location too. I live in London, so there are quite a few jobs but there are also shit loads of applicants for every position. It's slightly annoying that in the industry I'm in I'd probably have to leave the country to find work outside of London.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, definitely, I will.

What does he do again?

Originally posted by Bardock42
What jobs are you applying for, what's your background and why did you turn down the one job offer?

Communications & marketing, communications & marketing, sh*t pay, respectively.

I've done writing, editing, and print design for a wide array of publications and communications outlets, marketing for programs/events/concerts/fundraising/etc., PR, partnership development, social media, and other smaller things that I'm forgetting. So, a broad range of experiences within the field. I'm better at some than others, but can speak to all of them in some capacity.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Corporate "headhunters" will also find you if you build a nice network of friends on LinkedIn and you have highly sought-after qualifications. I've been contacted several times this past year by corporate recruiters. They seem quite fierce: almost like car-salesmen.

It's the same when you upload a resume to a job site. But they're easy to ignore.

LinkedIn is supposedly great for all kinds of things, but I can't yet point to a single tangible thing it's done for me. Mostly, it's just there "in case." I actually set up a separate site to house my portfolio because LinkedIn didn't do what I wanted for an online portfolio.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I can give some more advice from an interviewers perspective. I did the math and I probably conducted a bit over 1000 interviews at my previous job. I've got plenty of dos and don'ts that some may find helpful. I'm tired, and I have to poop, so I am going to poop and go to bed.

That's a lot of damn interviews. I tend to interview well, and have read all of the many "tips" to tweak my performances. But the biggest thing, as you say, is being outgoing and personable. I'm both. I wasn't always, so I remember some HORRIBLE interviews. But now if I trip up, it's over an individual answer to a tricky question, not because I'm not comfortable.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Very good, pre-emptive, self-deprecation...made your post better. You've got the job!

I was hoping someone would notice. haermm

Originally posted by chillmeisterII
I suppose a lot of it depends on your location too. I live in London, so there are quite a few jobs but there are also shit loads of applicants for every position. It's slightly annoying that in the industry I'm in I'd probably have to leave the country to find work outside of London.

This is true. Having an ITIL Expert certification in London would mean dick-all. In the US, where those types are rare and in very high demand, I'm like the Second Coming of Christ for these IT shops. 😬 They recruit ITIL Experts from the UK because there are so few, here. They prefer Americans, though, and are willing to pay more for American ITIL Experts. I think the green-card (immigration) and naturalization process are almost insurmountable tasks for these American companies. Also, talking to some of my peers in the area, the IT business units of many American companies are horribly and inefficiently run: they are like gold-mines for ambitious ITIL Experts.

So, yeah, I wouldn't stand a chance in London. Or Berlin.

Also, if anyone is wanting to get into IT Management, the "best of the best" qualifications are:

1. PMP or CPD certification.
2. Masters of Business Administration and/or Masters of Information Technology (avoid "diploma mills"...that much should be obvious).
3. Six Sigma Green or Black Belt.

Originally posted by Digi
That's a lot of damn interviews. I tend to interview well, and have read all of the many "tips" to tweak my performances. But the biggest thing, as you say, is being outgoing and personable. I'm both. I wasn't always, so I remember some HORRIBLE interviews. But now if I trip up, it's over an individual answer to a tricky question, not because I'm not comfortable.

There was this tech I hired that was the absolute best person I ever interviewed and he ended up being a lazy employee. It sucked. He had me fooled. He was the only person to do so, however. He was just a slick motherf*cker. Also, I wouldn't put it past you to be able to fool an interviewer into thinking you're more competent or experienced for a particular job, than you really are. Some people are just damn good at playing the interview game. 🙂

Also, let me put the kibosh on the (joking, I realize) calls to hire me. This wasn't an application, and the years of my modding on this forum, with all the sh*t that entails and the animosity directed toward me, would make me hesitant to meet or work for nearly anyone on this site, regardless of how much I like or respect someone.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There was this tech I hired that was the absolute best person I ever interviewed and he ended up being a lazy employee. It sucked. He had me fooled. He was the only person to do so, however. He was just a slick motherf*cker. Also, I wouldn't put it past you to be able to fool an interviewer into thinking you're more competent or experienced for a particular job, than you really are. Some people are just damn good at playing the interview game. 🙂

Ideally, I'm not fooling anyone about anything. We all tend to put our "best self" forward in interviews, which might involve omissions and such. But misrepresenting oneself in a way that could adversely affect your employment is, in the long-term, going to be damaging to everyone. And that's ignoring the moral issues of it as well.

Originally posted by Digi
Ideally, I'm not fooling anyone about anything. We all tend to put our "best self" forward in interviews, which might involve omissions and such. But misrepresenting oneself in a way that could adversely affect your employment is, in the long-term, going to be damaging to everyone. And that's ignoring the moral issues of it as well.

After working with all levels of companies, one of them a fortune 50 company, I can honestly say that there is nothing magical about management after a certain level. Probably around mid-level, you don't need to be good at what you do.

At the upper levels of management, your team does all the work and your administrative assistant/s does/do the bulk of your work. In fact, that's some of the stuff they teach in those classes: a good manager directs and delegates but does not do any of the work, directly.

So, basically, what I'm saying is, there is nothing magical about what my CIO does. I could, literally, step in and do his job, today. The same for my previous managers/VPs: some were horrible and I am positive that a random KMC member could do a better job. Some were amazing and you can tell that it was not nepotism that got them in that position.

I think with the highly technical jobs; medical doctors, scientific researchers, engineers, physicists, and programmers, to name a few; you cannot just step into. But shop manager, project manager, VP of Public Relations, HR Director, etc. Those jobs you can literally learn how to do, effectively, in about 3 months of self-study. "You" as in Digi. Not "you" as in the general populace. You do need to possess an above average intelligence, a good memory, and a drive to succeed to pull something like that off. But I personally do not feel a lot of these jobs require any experience to be effective in.

This was not true even as little as 10-15 years ago. You needed experience. But, now, that experience is a few clicks away on the internet. Need a super important question answered about a process everyone is doing at work? Ask a community of experts who do the same job and get their feedback. 🙂

Also, there is now a saying in IT. A good tech knows how to solve complicated problems. A great tech knows where to find the solutions to complicated problems.*

*It should be noted that a chemist told me the same thing about chemists (he was an oil and gas dude...not sure what he did): a good chemist knows how to formulate a particular product. A great chemist knows how to find the formulation.

That's an ugly paraphrase of his saying. But it seems the saying is common in technical professions.

Just got another offer for some freelance work, and I'm meeting with an established freelance writer later this week to talk to her about how she established herself in the industry. Should be informative.

Also two interviews tomorrow. It would be a move for either, but I'm actually kinda excited about that. I have no roots in my current town, and my gf has a lot of mobility with her job.

Originally posted by dadudemon
After working with all levels of companies, one of them a fortune 50 company, I can honestly say that there is nothing magical about management after a certain level. Probably around mid-level, you don't need to be good at what you do.

At the upper levels of management, your team does all the work and your administrative assistant/s does/do the bulk of your work. In fact, that's some of the stuff they teach in those classes: a good manager directs and delegates but does not do any of the work, directly.

So, basically, what I'm saying is, there is nothing magical about what my CIO does. I could, literally, step in and do his job, today. The same for my previous managers/VPs: some were horrible and I am positive that a random KMC member could do a better job. Some were amazing and you can tell that it was not nepotism that got them in that position.

I think with the highly technical jobs; medical doctors, scientific researchers, engineers, physicists, and programmers, to name a few; you cannot just step into. But shop manager, project manager, VP of Public Relations, HR Director, etc. Those jobs you can literally learn how to do, effectively, in about 3 months of self-study. "You" as in Digi. Not "you" as in the general populace. You do need to possess an above average intelligence, a good memory, and a drive to succeed to pull something like that off. But I personally do not feel a lot of these jobs require any experience to be effective in.

This was not true even as little as 10-15 years ago. You needed experience. But, now, that experience is a few clicks away on the internet. Need a super important question answered about a process everyone is doing at work? Ask a community of experts who do the same job and get their feedback. 🙂

Also, there is now a saying in IT. A good tech knows how to solve complicated problems. A great tech knows where to find the solutions to complicated problems.*

*It should be noted that a chemist told me the same thing about chemists (he was an oil and gas dude...not sure what he did): a good chemist knows how to formulate a particular product. A great chemist knows how to find the formulation.

That's an ugly paraphrase of his saying. But it seems the saying is common in technical professions.

Lol. Like how Google has made a generation of children IT professionals to their parents. A professional contact of mine said something similar recently, though it was a bit less tactful. But yeah, you've got a point.

I've accepted a job offer in a location that I'm going to be happy to relocate to. In the coming month or so, I'll be moving and transitioning to the new position.

It's a cliche to say that everything tends to work out in these situations, as many have assured me it would. But I don't put much stock in that, because it's in hindsight. Far better would have been to transition of my own volition, not out of necessity. Now, I'm excited about the job, and planned on moving eventually anyway (though the plan was in another 2-5 years), so it did in fact work itself out. But not without a lot of fear over my situation.

The biggest - and probably most lasting - takeaway from all of this has been the methods by which I searched and networked in my job search. I'm a LOT more savvy on dozens of aspects of the job market that I was oblivious to before. I also learned to network my way into a lot of connections and opportunities in a decent-sized city. While it didn't culminate in something full-time, I've been doing freelance work as a result of my networking. I have three clients (two local), and I'm hoping to hang onto all three even once I move. That worked out for the better, at least, and the whole thing served as a reminder that despite my work ethic, skills, and intelligence, I'm always just one supervisor's opinion away from being on the job market again.

So in this instance, I'm going to chalk it up as a positive, at least provided the new job works out well. But my goal in the next five years or so is going to be to set myself up through savings, investments, and side work (like the freelancing), to give myself a much, much bigger safety net.

Congrats on the new job