Originally posted by Trocity
I don't know much about Xesh, I've heard people say he's like Marek force-wise though. Dunno if that's true.
Nooo, that's not true. He fought some Je'daii, but they were able to overcome him. He stunned a rancor with lightning, but it recovered.
Xesh is a skilled Ratakan force hound, with great tracking abilities, but I do not put him in Jedi Grand Master or high Dark Lord of the Sith range.
He's stronger than the other masters around, but not by a lot.
Originally posted by Q99
Nooo, that's not true. He fought some Je'daii, but they were able to overcome him. He stunned a rancor with lightning, but it recovered.Xesh is a skilled Ratakan force hound, with great tracking abilities, but I do not put him in Jedi Grand Master or high Dark Lord of the Sith range.
He's stronger than the other masters around, but not by a lot.
His lightning feats don't stop at hurting a Rancor, either. He powered a previously dud ship with his lightning, and actually risked blowing it up by overloading it. He also killed four Force Sensitive flesh raiders, used tutaminis to redirect a ball of Force Lightning into a more powerful burst, used tutaminis (alongside Shae Koda) to absorb Force Lightning being spat out by a massive rift worm (which, previously, was too great a task for Shae and the other two Je'daii as a trio). He managed to harness a Force Storm which threatened all life on Tython. In fact, it was his dark presence which caused the Tythan storms in the first place, and he was powerful enough to be felt by every Je'daii on the planet. And I'm only really scratching the surface with all of this.
He has other power showings like overpowering Daegen Lok's mind twist and then later on using one on him, which is highly impressive given Lok's telepathic showings, and being able to locate Tython and project his Force Shadow onto it where other Force Hounds failed to.
Xesh had the advantage of a force sword when they had metal blades, which was a very large advantage, and each one of them was able to do something against him anyway.
Shae kicked him, Tasha force threw him, Sek'nos disarmed him (pretty much one on one at that point), Shae cut him once she got the force sword, and all through the fight *they* just wanted him to stand down while *he* was trying to kill them. Frankly, he left because they were kicking his butt, even though they did keep getting surprised by his powers. Any one of them was individually showing themselves to be a fight for him.
Nor are they the best the Je'daii had to offer, that'd be more Quan-Jang and the other Masters.
Xesh has good force feats- energy redirection and some lightning and such, but against someone like Satele Shan he's simply going to be outmatched. She can block his lightning and TK, and definitely has better dueling ability.
In fact, it was his dark presence which caused the Tythan storms in the first place, and he was powerful enough to be felt by every Je'daii on the planet.
Note, this is the way Tython works, especially in that particular region. This is why their jails are on the moons, because the world reacts to strong unbalanced force users. In the prologue we see cities being destroyed by this factor.
The storm was actually stopped by a light side master coming forward and canceling out his presence. Quan-Jang did so, showing Quan-Jang's presence in the force was equal to Xesh's darkness.
used tutaminis to redirect a ball of Force Lightning into a more powerful burst,
Notably that's how he stunned the Rancor. Even using and amping Sek'nos's lightning ball was only that strong.
And I'm only really scratching the surface with all of this.
I have read the entire series, but it's been awhile and only have the first TPB with me. He has more feats in that range, but that's all from what I remember.
"Xesh had the advantage of a force sword when they had metal blades, which was a very large advantage, and each one of them was able to do something against him anyway.
Shae kicked him, Tasha force threw him, Sek'nos disarmed him (pretty much one on one at that point), Shae cut him once she got the force sword, and all through the fight *they* just wanted him to stand down while *he* was trying to kill them. Frankly, he left because they were kicking his butt, even though they did keep getting surprised by his powers. Any one of them was individually showing themselves to be a fight for him.
Nor are they the best the Je'daii had to offer, that'd be more Quan-Jang and the other Masters."
Granted, you're right in pointing out both his Forcesaber and their varying successes against him (although some of them were examples of Xesh being struck from behind, but I digress), but you failed to mention that he landed martial strikes of his own. In any case, acting like that fight is the beginning and end of his feats wouldn't really do him justice. He has other decent dueling feats but far more importantly, much better Force feats.
As for them being able to take him individually, Xesh had gotten the better of both Koda and Sek'nos later on in the series individually each, and in some cases held his own against Koda while holding back on her. And he has better feats than them in general.
He didn't leave because they were "kicking his butt", the comic's description of the fight says that they proved to be a match for him, so he left.
Quan-Jang and the like are nigh-featless, and could only be elevated above the Journeyers by logical inference of their rank, which isn't really reliable.
"Xesh has good force feats- energy redirection and some lightning and such, but against someone like Satele Shan he's simply going to be outmatched. She can block his lightning and TK, and definitely has better dueling ability."
Well, to be fair Xesh's lightning is more likely on-par or superior to Deceived Malgus'. Malgus killing a Padawan and Knight with his lightning isn't really as good as Xesh killing four Force sensitive Raiders, powering a ship and nearly overloading it ect. He's at least equal.
"Note, this is the way Tython works, especially in that particular region. This is why their jails are on the moons, because the world reacts to strong unbalanced force users. In the prologue we see cities being destroyed by this factor.
The storm was actually stopped by a light side master coming forward and canceling out his presence. Quan-Jang did so, showing Quan-Jang's presence in the force was equal to Xesh's darkness."
Tython had never had Force Storms as violent and threatening as the ones Xesh brought about. Ah, it's all in my respect thread but I can't do much at the moment. If you feel like researching, google "Xesh Respect thread comic vine" and you'll see all of his feats compiled. It might change your mind.
You're forgetting that that Je'daii Master was also being empowered by the eight other Je'daii Temple Masters. They were the ones who separated him from the Storm, he was just a conduit. Not only that, but they were all also on a Force Nexus at the time, which further amplifies their abilities. It's hardly a slight on Xesh that their combined power was enough to stop him from being the nexus of the storm. Not to mention, the head Master himself said afterwards that the balance they reclaimed was only tenuous, and that Xesh wielded "dark devastating power".
"Notably that's how he stunned the Rancor. Even using and amping Sek'nos's lightning ball was only that strong."
And your point is? I've highlighted his other lightning feats.
"I have read the entire series, but it's been awhile and only have the first TPB with me. He has more feats in that range, but that's all from what I remember."
When I first read DotJ I didn't think too much of Xesh, but after I read it back several times and looked at his power feats from a different perspective it became clear that he's actually very powerful in the grand scheme of things. Like I keep banging on about, it's in the thread I made for him which I urge everyone to read, for educational purposes and because Xesh is awesome.
Granted, you're right in pointing out both his Forcesaber and their varying successes against him (although some of them were examples of Xesh being struck from behind, but I digress), but you failed to mention that he landed martial strikes of his own. In any case, acting like that fight is the beginning and end of his feats wouldn't really do him justice. He has other decent dueling feats but far more importantly, much better Force feats.
Rather the point, his dueling is just 'decent'. Satele Shan goes well past decent.
Throw in that Satele has some of the best energy absorption there is, and that cancels out a lot of the threat of Xesh's lightning.
Meaning she's going to block his force, and then win in close.
He didn't leave because they were "kicking his butt", the comic's description of the fight says that they proved to be a match for him, so he left.
The page where he declares he'll leave, first he gets cut in the arm (right after Shae shrugs a force-push from him), then kicked in the gut.
It looked to me like they were kicking his butt! Heck, he abandoned his force sword.
Quan-Jang and the like are nigh-featless, and could only be elevated above the Journeyers by logical inference of their rank, which isn't really reliable.
He was able to counteract Xesh's storm, so that's a feat.
Tython had never had Force Storms as violent and threatening as the ones Xesh brought about.
They had records of another of the same size millennia before. It's rare, not unique
Also, they mentioned how the crash *itself* fed the storm and the darkness permeated the wrecked. I.e. the fact that it was Rakatan force tech was a major cause, not just Xesh. He was the focus but not the only thing feeding it.
Like I keep banging on about, it's in the thread I made for him which I urge everyone to read, for educational purposes and because Xesh is awesome.
Or you could mention specific incidents. What's the single biggest, you feel?
Rather the point, his dueling is just 'decent'. Satele Shan goes well past decent.Throw in that Satele has some of the best energy absorption there is, and that cancels out a lot of the threat of Xesh's lightning.
Meaning she's going to block his force, and then win in close.
I'd only be willing to grant Satele an edge as a duelist by about one tier, to be honest with you. Her only substantial dueling feats were against characters who's dueling skill is very minimally expounded upon. Contending with Malgus should put her above Xesh, but not by leaps and bounds.
Xesh is a Force Hound, who John Ostrander mentioned were analogous to Jedi in terms of their combat skill. He was the best Force Hound in the entire Rakatan empire. At a young age he managed to defeat a Force Hound who had been trained in combat literally since birth, and he stomped Trill on two known occasions. Both of these people are generally featless as combatants, but when you consider that they're worth as much as your average Jedi, Xesh beating/stomping them and being the best of them all should elevate him to a decent standing as a duelist.
Then, we have the Flesh Raiders. Unskilled? Yes. Bred for nothing else other than brutal to the death combat? Yes. At the Rakata's disposal in insane quantity? You bet. As noted, the Flesh Raiders would be in such numbers that they would surround each individual Je'daii on the field of battle. Xesh himself slayed dozens of them, which is impressive due to their sheer numbers. Other characters such as Daegen Lok and Sek'nos Rath also slayed dozens, and at one point they together teamed up on the edge of a cliff and fought and killed dozens upon dozens of flesh raiders. I'm not arguing for their skill, but their sheer numbers and brutality makes them formidable. Xesh bested Sek'nos in one move later on in the series, and Daegen Lok would go on to duel evenly with Skal'nas. Why is that important? Because Xesh subsequently defeated Skal'nas comfortably, and 'nas himself was the fiercest combatant of all the Rakata's hierarchy.
The point being - Xesh is a pretty good duelist, and he shouldn't be as for off Satele as you're putting him, IMO.
I dunno, Xesh has pretty potent telekinesis, as seen when he created a fissure in the ground pretty casually at the end of his fight with the Je'daii trio, and this required minimal effort on his part. He's also dominated Trill in the Force, and Trill was telekinetically powerful enough to hurl a beast (which was about the same height as a Rancor but quite a bit thinner) into a spike protruding from a piece of landscape. This can't make him far off of Satele stunning Hex droids with a look. And it would be fair to note that Xesh has more potent lightning than Satele has ever faced, so while her energy absorption is potent, it could be problematic for her in the long run.
I'm mostly promoting Xesh here, rather than taking a side, by the way. I wouldn't have made this match if I didn't see it as even.
The page where he declares he'll leave, first he gets cut in the arm (right after Shae shrugs a force-push from him), then kicked in the gut.It looked to me like they were kicking his butt! Heck, he abandoned his force sword.
Shae and Tasha weren't shrugging anything off when Xesh had sent them flying away telekinetically earlier, which you chose to leave out, but I digress.
Like I said, he was concussed and he, as per the comic, not my opinion, believe them to be an even match for him, so he left. As I've also noted, he landed strikes of his own against them, and he did best Sek'nos later on and contest with Koda while holding back on her.
He was able to counteract Xesh's storm, so that's a feat.
They had records of another of the same size millennia before. It's rare, not uniqueAlso, they mentioned how the crash *itself* fed the storm and the darkness permeated the wrecked. I.e. the fact that it was Rakatan force tech was a major cause, not just Xesh. He was the focus but not the only thing feeding it.
It also noted that the deaths and Dark Side energy of the passengers coalesced with Xesh, and that he became the Nexus of the Force Storm. The Je'daii noted that he wielded devastating power, that his presence was felt by every Je'daii on the planet, that Dark Side energy permeated the site of the wreck and would not dissipate because of Xesh's presence, that the balance they had restored was only tenuous, and that Xesh was a threat to the planet by being there. He was evidently the most important part of the Force Storm, and he absorbed the ambient Dark Side energy from the crash after getting out from it.
Or you could mention specific incidents. What's the single biggest, you feel?
Lightning- Killing four Force sensitive beings, powering a ship's battery and threatening to overload it.
Tutaminis- Using tutaminis on a ball of lightning, and to absorb the Force Lightning being spat from a Rift Worm (which is absolutely massive) alongside Shae Koda, where the Je'daii trio were struggling to.
Telekinesis- Dominating Trill with TK, who can hurl large Rancor-esque beasts into cliffsides. Creating a large fissure with a Force blast. Being proclaimed far more powerful than Daegen Lok, who ripped a large portion of a stone ceiling out with little effort.
Telepathy- Resisting a Mind Twist and subsequently debilitating Daegen Lok. His feats include making a Je'daii believe they were on fire through a "Mind Twist", and leaving them in that state permanently until he decided to remove them from the trance (said Je'daii actually appeared to have burns on her afterwards, too, back on Tython), and putting Hawk Ryo in a trance that had him fully believing he had engaged in an extensive duel with Lok. Xesh would then go on to perform a Mind Twist on Lok himself without a hitch.
Force Shadow/Planet Sensing- Xesh was able to project his Force Shadow over lightyears, from Byss to Tython, as well as locate Tython where others couldn't. He's also cast a Force Shadow from one planet to another in order to locate a Rakatan base.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I've looked into the dudes feats and nothing strikes me as something better than Satele shattering blast doors or crushing hex droids, or anything she can't handle in a fight. Nor anything like blitzing Sith Warriors.
Originally posted by Q99
I'd personally put her better in dueling too.Anyway, council-level people is probably who he should be fighting.
I don't know what people mean when they say "council-level" - being a certain rank, title or what have you means nothing in relation to feats, otherwise Yarael Poof would be better than Anakin Skywalker and Tarkin would be Vader's superior. Every character is defined by what they can do, not their position in an organization.