Captain America vs. Achilles (Troy)

Originally posted by FrothByte
I practice HEMA, which is mostly medieval and renaissance sword-fighting arts. And though I'm by no means an expert at it, I'm pretty sure I know more about sword combat than your average internet forum warrior.

No one knows more about combat than me, not even those who practice HEMA.

And let me tell you, every single movie sword fight is silly. Even the fight in Rob Roy is ridiculous if you take it from a realistic point of view.

Why's that? There's a little flynning, but they fought like men trying to kill each other.

The fight scene from Troy didn't have this aspect. They avoided obvious holes in their opponent's defenses and mostly danced in close proximity of one another. 👆

That said, the choreography in Hector vs. Achilles was very tight, aggressive and brutal. A whole lot better than any Star Wars light saber fight. And while I do think Rob Roy's sword fight was better, I also know that trying to choreograph a fight with sword, shield and spear is a hell lot harder than choreographing a fight of sword vs. sword.

This is the same fight where Achilles bared his neck to Hector, begging him to stab it, only for Hector to swing over Achilles' head. Or when Hector wielded his sword and broken spear. Half the time he barely seemed to remember he had the broken spear.

Was it stylized and tight? Sure. But it was very flashy with no substance. Aggressive? Brutal? No not really. It was a dance scene.

Is it really though? I'm no cinematographer, but it seems to me that making a fight scene where there are more ways to kill someone is actually easier.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No one knows more about combat than me, not even those who practice HEMA.

Why's that? There's a little flynning, but they fought like men trying to kill each other.

The fight scene from Troy didn't have this aspect. They avoided obvious holes in their opponent's defenses and mostly danced in close proximity of one another. 👆

This is the same fight where Achilles bared his neck to Hector, begging him to stab it, only for Hector to swing over Achilles' head. Or when Hector wielded his sword and broken spear. Half the time he barely seemed to remember he had the broken spear.

Was it stylized and tight? Sure. But it was very flashy with no substance. Aggressive? Brutal? No not really. It was a dance scene.

Is it really though? I'm no cinematographer, but it seems to me that making a fight scene where there are more ways to kill someone is actually easier.

Sword fighting is a dance, even the sword master from GOT said so. Also if you watched the extra's they talked about the sword fight and said since achilles was a god, they wanted him to have an exotic fighting style.

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Didn't realise there was so much Achilles hate out there? And the only thing about Rob Roy was Liam Neeson, the rest of the movie was pretty shit. The assumption I'm going with is that Achilles would beat everyone on that movie with a sword. I know Achilles didn't actually know a real Sword Fighting style because he was a fictional Achilles with a fictional Swordplay style that trumped everyone else's.

Of course Achilles would beat everyone in that movie with a sword. He's a legitimate superhuman.

If you give them equal stats though? That metrosexual British fop would end Achilles. 👆

Perseus gets more respect then Achilles and he had major help with things and was a legitimate demi god. I don't see why Achilles don't get respect for what he was doing. No help from anyone, not directly demi god powers according to some people. He had to put in major work to become what he had, Perseus was born with power.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No one knows more about combat than me, not even those who practice HEMA.

I take it that this comment was supposed to be a joke.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Why's that? There's a little flynning, but they fought like men trying to kill each other.

The fight scene from Troy didn't have this aspect. They avoided obvious holes in their opponent's defenses and mostly danced in close proximity of one another. 👆

Well if you really want to get technical about it:

1. A basket-hilt broadsword is not really that heavy and is definitely not as slow as they portrayed in the fight
2. Cunningham's sword continuously changes. First he picks up something that looks like a sidesword, then later it looks like a saber, then later on it's more like a smallsword with a triangular blade. Triangular blades do not cut, they're made for stabbing, and yet Cunningham continuously cuts with it.
3. Cunningham blocks multiple times with the weak of his sword. When you block you're supposed to block with the strong of your sword. If it had been a real fight, majority of Neeson's attacks would have plowed through Cunningham's defenses.
4. Unless Cunningham is in ridiculously better shape than Neeson's character, Cunningham should have been the first one to tire considering that he was the one who kept moving about.
5. Just like in all other sword fights in movies, this fight had lots of openings. Had the combatants simply gone for a thrust instead of wildly cutting around the fight could have been over in a few seconds.

But like I said, this is a movie and I understand that it won't be realistic. So I appreciate it for what it is: good choreography. But in this sense, Troy is every bit just as good (even better in certain areas). If we were to judge them from a realistic point of view, they all suck.

Originally posted by NemeBro
This is the same fight where Achilles bared his neck to Hector, begging him to stab it, only for Hector to swing over Achilles' head. Or when Hector wielded his sword and broken spear. Half the time he barely seemed to remember he had the broken spear.

Was it stylized and tight? Sure. But it was very flashy with no substance. Aggressive? Brutal? No not really. It was a dance scene.

Is it really though? I'm no cinematographer, but it seems to me that making a fight scene where there are more ways to kill someone is actually easier.

There is about as much substance in the Troy fight as there was in the Rob Roy fight and about as much nonsense "dancing" as well (we call these flourishes). With the limited amount of fight choreography I've tried, I know for a fact that the more exotic the weapon the harder it is to choreograph. Also, the more weapons brought into the fight the harder it also is to choreograph. Sword, shield and spear is way harder to choreograph than single sword.

wow this got serious.

Cap is physically superior. However he's given a weapon he knows nothing about against a guy who trained his entire life with the precursor to that weapon. Also Cap is given a dagger vs a sword-staff.

It's more than a little biased, but hey.

YouTube video

Seems Archibald would kick Achilles' ass if he was going for the quick kill and not playing games. 👆

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why is someone with a Sweeney Todd set calling anything shit?

Straw grasping...

Originally posted by RJ 2.0

Achilles is absurdly overrated.

Quite the rock solid argument you have there.

Achilles is more skilled than Captain America and we saw a normal human fighting on par with Cap based just on his skill. Give Cap his shield and this fight could go both ways.