Darth Traya vs Count Dooku

Originally posted by Selenial
Not really, the Exile was a master duelist. She beat Atris, a purely physical Juyo master of the high council in pure saber combat, in Atris' personal Nexus...

Traya held her own against Surik for quite some time.

Traya is still disadvantaged by losing one of her hands to Sion and is a weaker duelist anyway to Dooku. If he forces a duel, she will lose. I doubt she'd be able to successfully retreat and would likely lose her other hand just like she did against Meetra.

That said, I do think she has the advantage in the Force so it's not as if she doesn't have a chance.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Frankly, you'd have to be as high as Emp to think that Dooku stands a chance against Yoda in an all-out Force battle.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of those are particularly aggressive or violate the spirit of his words. You can point out supposed inconsistencies if you want but the fact is that Yoda notably prefers not to aggressively attack people with the Force, which is why he didn't beat up Dooku despite obviously being capable of doing so. Just because he smashes some droids and harmlessly uses it against some people on occasion doesn't mean that he'd smack around his favorite apprentice with it.

Frankly, you'd have to be as high as Emp to think that Dooku stands a chance against Yoda in an all-out Force battle.

Yeah, giving Force blasts enough to send Sidious flying and hurling a platform capable of flattening Sidious is indeed harmless. Trying to kill someone with lightsaber(guided by the Force) is anything but harmless and he did try to kill DOoku on both occasions.

Regardless, as I said Yoda pulled lightsabers out of Ventress. Nothing was stopping him from doing the same to Dooku, if as you say Yoda is "obviously" capable, harmless and very effective. It can only mean he couldn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, lets just completely disregard what Yoda himself has stated on two separate occasions because your opinion is better than him. Seems legit.

Not the best logic to use. Taking that completely literally would mean Yoda would never hit anyone.

He was simply teaching Luke that Jedi can't ever just go around fighting for revenge or any other lame reason. In AOTC there clearly was a reason. Dooku had to be stopped to prevent a Civil war. If that's not fighting for "Defense" then I don't know what is.

And as Arheal's pointed out, Yoda did in fact attack Dooku with his Saber. He may not have gone all out with TK, but your reasoning for not doing so isn't even close to being proof.

Gotta love how people think that using Force to stub someone to death or permanently cripple with lightsaber is more harmless and effective than subduing with TK.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not the best logic to use. Taking that completely literally would mean Yoda would never hit anyone.

He was simply teaching Luke that Jedi can't ever just go around fighting for revenge or any other lame reason. In AOTC there clearly was a reason. Dooku had to be stopped to prevent a Civil war. If that's not fighting for "Defense" then I don't know what is.

And as Arheal's pointed out, Yoda did in fact attack Dooku with his Saber. He may not have gone all out with TK, but your reasoning for not doing so isn't even close to being proof.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yeah, giving Force blasts enough to send Sidious flying and hurling a platform capable of flattening Sidious is indeed harmless. Trying to kill someone with lightsaber(guided by the Force) is anything but harmless and he did try to kill DOoku on both occasions.

Regardless, as I said Yoda pulled lightsabers out of Ventress. Nothing was stopping him from doing the same to Dooku, if as you say Yoda is "obviously" capable, harmless and very effective. It can only mean he couldn't.

Was Sidious harmed by either of those attacks? Heck, the second one wasn't even really aimed at him. Killing with a lightsaber is completely different from killing with TK. We see Jedi kill droids with the Force all the time but they rarely/never do that against real people. Remember that the Jedi see the Force in an almost religious light. Using it to kill like that would be sacrilegious and a corruption of life itself.

Yoda can't dominate Dooku as easily as he did Ventress. If he wanted to stop Dooku with the Force he'd likely have to go all out to do so.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I dunno. When Luke actually kills with the Force, he's mortified by it, so obviously he took a different meaning from what Yoda taught than you did.

Of course killing is something completely different to attacking. Luke has clearly attacked opponents many many times.

Heck in DE he attacks Sidious first. And with a Force Push no less. So clearly he didn't take that message completely literally.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Heck in DE he attacks Sidious first. And with a Force Push no less. So clearly he didn't take that message completely literally.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dunno, unlike Yoda with Dooku, Luke probably didn't think he could kill with TK. The fact still remains, if Yoda can slam Sidious, Dooku should be no trouble for him.

Not arguing that. I'm arguing his line of "force is never used for attack" as being some sort of evidence for any fight involving Yoda.

We can hardly just ignore it. When someone makes the argument that Yoda not dominating with the Force proves he can't, why shouldn't we bring up the possibility that he didn't for a different reason when Yoda himself provides that reason?

Originally posted by Nephthys
We can hardly just ignore it. When someone makes the argument that Yoda not dominating with the Force proves he can't, why shouldn't we bring up the possibility that he didn't for a different reason when Yoda himself provides that reason?

Because Yoda' reasoning makes no sense in light of the Prequels. I've posted this for you before, and I'll post it again now to show you have to stop using that line as evidence of anything in the Prequels:

http://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-on-the-lost-missions-yoda-arc

What you get out of this story arc is that you understand, finally, that Yoda in the Clone Wars period is not at all the same person that he is in The Empire Strikes Back. People, I think, have always wondered, “Why [in The Clone Wars] isn’t he like he was in Empire? He’s not as odd, and he’s not as quizzical. Why is he so much more serious in the Clone War and where’s the fun little Yoda who was wise?” Well, he’s not there yet, you see. The story that we tell goes a very long way toward explaining who Yoda is prior to the Clone War and who he becomes after the Clone War.

He basically reaches a certain point of enlightenment and it ties into Qui-Gon and what Yoda talks about in Revenge of the Sith. It makes all those things come together. And then when you look at it, and you hear what he says at the end of this arc versus what he was saying at the beginning, you realize he’s come to a different understanding. In Empire he says things like, “Wars not make one great.” Well, he fought a war. You have to fight through the war, and you have to get through that, and see other people that do that, to have any understanding of that truth. So he can’t be that way [during The Clone Wars]. “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never attack.” Well, the Clone Wars-era Jedi don’t seem to think that way. Maybe that was a long-lost governing principle, but they’re certainly not behaving that way in the Clone War. So you understand that, fundamentally, what a Jedi is during the Clone Wars and the prequel era is different than what Yoda, Qui-Gon, and eventually, Obi-Wan, understand is the truth of being completely selfless.

Yoda said the phrase "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never attack.” before the Clone Wars though, in The Jedi Path.

The Jedi Path is Legends, not canon.

So is Traya. 😬

I know, I'm just saying that's why Filoni's saying what he's saying. Canon!Yoda might have talked that pacifist shit a good game but didn't actually believe it until the OT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda can't dominate Dooku as easily as he did Ventress. If he wanted to stop Dooku with the Force he'd likely have to go all out to do so.

All we need to know is that: Yoda = Sidious > Dooku

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I know, I'm just saying that's why Filoni's saying what he's saying. Canon!Yoda might have talked that pacifist shit a good game but didn't actually believe it until the OT.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku: "It is obvious that this contest couldn't be decided by our knowledge of the Force but by our skills with a lightsaber".
Yoda did not disagree.

Dooku also seriously thought he had become more powerful than Yoda. 😉

That being said, Dooku takes this. I don't imagine the Exile handling Tyranus.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dunno, unlike Yoda with Dooku, Luke probably didn't think he could kill with TK. The fact still remains, if Yoda can slam Sidious, Dooku should be no trouble for him.