Originally posted by Greatest I am
I know the story and my post is the truth even if you do not like the truth.For a God to do or allow evil on a bet is quite immoral. Live with your immoral God if you like. Moral men will reject such a vile God.
Regards
DL
if you don't know the God of the Bible, then you'll definitely see Him as vile...
Originally posted by dyajeep
i don't know... maybe i understand different because i see God as good, merciful, fair and caring...
Then you have not read the bible.
Genesis 6:7
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Originally posted by red g jacks
if there is a god i would say we're created in its image in the fact that basically the rules it set up dictated the path that our evolution ultimately took and the strategies and personalities we have adopted as a result.
As an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian, I think you take a good position.
Have a look at this. You will likely agree with it, especially if you are familiar with Freud and Jung's Father complex theories.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Oneness
God would work as men and women alike.The setup is entirely anthropocentric.
Great men have suffered for trying to end suffering.
Do you think man would be well served if we could somehow end man to man evil?
Lend me your ear before you answer.
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.
Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.
Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.
Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
This link speak to theistic evolution.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB
If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then you have not read the bible.Genesis 6:7
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
God repented that He made who?
"The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Genesis 6:5
evil people... not good ones, that's why He saved Noah...
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Does your own bible not say that God is un-knowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways?How can you know what your bible says is un-knowable?
Or is your bible lying?
Regards
DL
can you please give the verse that says what you said?
Originally posted by dyajeep
God repented that He made who?"The Lord saw that [b]the wickedness of man
was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Genesis 6:5evil people... not good ones, that's why He saved Noah...[/B]
Sorry, but that sounds like a rationalization for an "evil" action done by god.
Fortunately, I don't believe that the flood story is literal, and god didn't murder all those people.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The idea that every person on the Earth was evil except for Noah and his family is absurd, and is most likely a rationalization by the writers of the story of the floor. No one wants to think of god as a mass murderer. It must of somehow been justified.
it's not absurd because the power of God is also written in the Bible:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?
I the Lord search the mind and try the heart, to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings."
Jeremiah 17:9-10
"Whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."
I John 3:20
God has the power to read the minds and hearts of all people... and that's what God "saw" ---
"The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Genesis 6:5
and how can you say that God is a murderer when He was the one who gave life in the first place?
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand."
Deuteronomy 32:39
"The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,
nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything."
Acts 17:24-25
this is on a Bible-believer's POV, shak... i know your rebuttals will end up like the Bible is fiction and a myth... 😛
Originally posted by dyajeep
it's not absurd because the power of God is also written in the Bible:"[b]The heart
is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?
I the Lord search the mind and try the heart, to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings."
Jeremiah 17:9-10"Whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."
I John 3:20God has the power to read the minds and hearts of all people... and that's what God "saw" ---
"The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Genesis 6:5and how can you say that God is a murderer when He was the one who gave life in the first place?
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand."
Deuteronomy 32:39"The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,
nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything."
Acts 17:24-25this is on a Bible-believer's POV, shak... i know your rebuttals will end up like the Bible is fiction and a myth... 😛 [/B]
Well said.
Originally posted by dyajeep
it's not absurd because the power of God is also written in the Bible:
Originally posted by dyajeep
God has the power to read the minds and hearts of all people... and that's what God "saw" ---
Originally posted by dyajeep
and how can you say that God is a murderer when He was the one who gave life in the first place?
Originally posted by dyajeep
this is on a Bible-believer's POV, shak... i know your rebuttals will end up like the Bible is fiction and a myth... 😛
God cannot be understood, and cannot be written down in a book.
Originally posted by dyajeep
see, i already know you, shak... 😆
God is not understandable by humans, so, how do we understand God? The answer is that we use an analogy, and that is us. The bible is written about humans trying to understand the imposable by understanding ourselves. God never does anything. It is always humans or nature that does the doing.
The flood? Was not worldwide, and was not god wiping out the wicked. It was a natural disaster.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God is not understandable by humans, so, how do we understand God? The answer is that we use an analogy, and that is us.
i was under the impression that you don't believe that there is a God...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
More like God is created in our image. Its called personification.
is there a God or not?
Originally posted by dyajeep
i was under the impression that you don't believe that there is a God...is there a God or not?
There are lots of gods. However, God is not a personification. God doesn't want or need. I use the word God to communicate with you. In my religion I wouldn't use the word God. I would use the Mystic Law. All humans throughout time have been trying to understand the Mystic Law. The word God is a place holder for something we do not understand. Kind of like "Dark Matter" is used in science to name something that we don't understand.
Long ago, humans didn't understand most of the world around them. But humans always try to understand, and when they can't, they fill the void with gods. The wind was a god, the ocean was a god, and the mountain was a god. Once we begin to understand the world around us, these gods were no longer needed. What we have left (or eventually will have left) is the unknowable God. This is the Mystic Law. Feel free to call it God, but don't pretend to understand it, because you don't, and nether do I.
I believe that mankind was created in God's image, Man had dominion over the Earth and all life on it, He lived forever, never had to worry about sickness, pain or sorrow Man experienced Heaven on Earth however when the rebellion came from Adam and Eve and sin's influence spread throughout time, it became easy for Man to start God in their image. They place limits on him and creating idols. When Man submits to God then it will be easy for them to themselves in God's Image.
Originally posted by atv2
I believe that mankind was created in God's image, Man had dominion over the Earth and all life on it, He lived forever, never had to worry about sickness, pain or sorrow Man experienced Heaven on Earth however when the rebellion came from Adam and Eve and sin's influence spread throughout time, it became easy for Man to start God in their image. They place limits on him and creating idols. When Man submits to God then it will be easy for them to themselves in God's Image.
Do you believe there were more people then Adam and Eve in the garden?