Favorite EU Book

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I was saying that Revan actually did save the galaxy. Fighting the Mando's was the morally correct thing to do and I would have done the same thing. Which makes it more tragic that he lost his way precisely because he succeeded in saving the galaxy. It was the ultimate corruption of the ultimate hero. Even in his victory, he became the next threat. Compelling stuff.

You're still silly, you goalpost-mover. Revan indeed succeeded in his goal (though one could very cheaply argue that Dooku also succeeded in helping end the scourge of a corrupt Republic); how does that make him more compelling while simultaneously precluding success as a deciding factor in such things?

I'm feeling another Ackbar gif...

Revan destroyed the galaxy, purged the Jedi, then restored the galaxy. He kept the Emperor at bay fighting him for 300 years. Now he's about to destroy the galaxy and/or save it afterwards. That's not a Gary Stu.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Revan destroyed the galaxy, purged the Jedi, then restored the galaxy. He kept the Emperor at bay fighting him for 300 years. Now he's about to destroy the galaxy and/or save it afterwards. That's not a Gary Stu.

In the sense that he's unimaginably good at everything he does (minus the crippling fact that he succumbed to simple mind-rape like a b1tch, which initially amused me because it brought him down a peg but then ushered in an even cheaper character in the form of Vitiate in the ultimate "be careful what you wish for, Tempest" scenario) and his failures are always mitigated or glossed over entirely, yes, yes it does.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

You're still silly, you goalpost-mover. Revan indeed succeeded in his goal (though one could very cheaply argue that Dooku also succeeded in helping end the scourge of a corrupt Republic); how does that make him more compelling while simultaneously precluding success as a deciding factor in such things?

I'm feeling another Ackbar gif...

Because Revan was legitimately the hero of the Republic, their greatest champion who saved them from the brink of defeat. He was the era's Luke Skywalker. Dooku was a misguided rube. In a story it's more compelling when a character tries to do something legitimately good and noble (and actually succeeds in doing that thing), but in doing so becomes the villain and makes everything worse. Dooku never had the chance to do this because he was corrupted from the start and never had a shot at truly making the Republic a better place. He was always the villain. He doesn't have any sympathetic qualities and his CIS was way more corrupt and evil than the Republic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Revan was legitimately the hero of the Republic, their greatest champion who saved them from the brink of defeat. He was the era's Luke Skywalker.

Right. But what does that have to do with his success, which is what you claimed gave him the nod over Dooku?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku was a misguided rube. In a story it's more compelling when a character tries to do something legitimately good and noble (and actually succeeds in doing that thing), but in doing so becomes the villain and makes everything worse.

Er... what? That's... Dooku in a nutshell. Though I'm at a loss as to how Revan can both simultaneously succeed in his goals of saving the galaxy and make things worse for it at the same time? I'm not sure you have a cogent idea here, but if you do, you're not articulating it adequately.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku never had the chance to do this because he was corrupted from the start and never had a shot at truly making the Republic a better place. He was always the villain. He doesn't have any sympathetic qualities and his CIS was way more corrupt and evil than the Republic.

Er... what? We're introduced to Dooku as a villain, yes. The fact that his intentions are articulated through dialogue and novels doesn't undermine the story. If that were the case, Revan's story wouldn't at all be compelling because when we're "introduced" to him (a term I use loosely), he's a blank slate for a player character and all that we know of him is what we're told by other characters.

Sounds like you just want to like Revan more to take a not so thinly-veiled potshot at the PT. If there's any substance here, I'm not seeing it.

Beefy's articulating his thoughts well enough, even though I disagree. Yours are contradictory.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right. But what does that have to do with his success, which is what you claimed gave him the nod over Dooku?

Just because I put succeeded in bold doesn't mean its the only important thing in the paragraph bro. But as I said the success comes into it because Revan was actually a hero who actually saved the galaxy whereas Dooku was just a moron who never had a shot at doing anything good. There was no high for him to fall from, so it's not as compelling. A bad man told him to do bad things and he did the bad things. I just don't find that as much of an epic fall from grace as Revan's going from saving the galaxy to trying to conquer it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Er... what? That's... Dooku in a nutshell. Though I'm at a loss as to how Revan can both simultaneously succeed in his goals of saving the galaxy and make things worse for it at the same time? I'm not sure you have a cogent idea here, but if you do, you're not articulating it adequately.

Revan saved the galaxy from the Mandalorians, but in doing so dragged himself and his followers over to the darkside and became a bigger threat than the Mando's ever were. Duh.

And no, its not Dooku in a nutshell. If Dooku had actually stamped out corruption by becoming a brutal tyrant for example, that would be similar. As it is Dooku never actually did anything good or noble. Him being a nice guy entirely comes from people telling us how nice and cool he was. He was just an easily manipulated idiot who was tricked into working with the very source of the corruption he was trying to eliminate and became an evil dick.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Er... what? We're introduced to Dooku as a villain, yes. The fact that his intentions are articulated through dialogue and novels doesn't undermine the story. If that were the case, Revan's story wouldn't at all be compelling because when we're "introduced" to him (a term I use loosely), he's a blank slate for a player character and all that we know of him is what we're told by other characters.

Sounds like you just want to like Revan more to take a not so thinly-veiled potshot at the PT. If there's any substance here, I'm not seeing it.

Beefy's articulating his thoughts well enough, even though I disagree. Yours are contradictory.

Theres a difference between a great hero corrupted to evil through his struggle to destroy it and a guy everyone really liked who was tricked into evil and too dumb to realise it.

It wasn't a potshot (I mean, NOW I'm taking potshots but not before), I just said I found Revan more interesting because his heroics were real, his goal was noble and you could totally relate with his story. I can't relate with Dooku's story, partially because ****ing politics isn't as interesting as war, partly because I can't see how the government being corrupt can justify starting a war that would murder b/trillions of people and partly because Dooku wasn't as big a hero as Revan was before his fall.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because I put succeeded in bold doesn't mean its the only important thing in the paragraph bro. But as I said the success comes into it because Revan was [b]actually a hero who actually saved the galaxy whereas Dooku was just a moron who never had a shot at doing anything good. There was no high for him to fall from, so it's not as compelling. A bad man told him to do bad things and he did the bad things. I just don't find that as much of an epic fall from grace as Revan's going from saving the galaxy to trying to conquer it.[/b]

This was a very uneconomic way of restating that you find Revan more compelling because he succeeded in his goal, which you already stated here:

You, earlier
I think whats more interesting to me about Revan as opposed to Dooku is that Revan actually was a hero who went to war to save the galaxy and succeeded.

I don't fault you for finding his success compelling; in fact, I don't even fault you for using that as the deciding factor between Revan and Dooku. I just know that you never cite success in any other similar debate. Which, of course, leads me to believe that you're being disingenuous for some sinister reason.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But as I said the success comes into it because Revan was actually a hero who actually saved the galaxy whereas Dooku was just a moron who never had a shot at doing anything good. There was no high for him to fall from, so it's not as compelling. A bad man told him to do bad things and he did the bad things. I just don't find that as much of an epic fall from grace as Revan's going from saving the galaxy to trying to conquer it.

Nephthys
Revan saved the galaxy from the Mandalorians, but in doing so dragged himself and his followers over to the darkside and became a bigger threat than the Mando's ever were. Duh.

And no, its not Dooku in a nutshell. If Dooku had actually stamped out corruption by becoming a brutal tyrant for example, that would be similar. As it is Dooku never actually did anything good or noble. He was just an easily manipulated idiot who was tricked into working with the very source of the corruption he was trying to eliminate and became an evil dick.

Theres a difference between a great hero corrupted to evil through his struggle to destroy it and a guy everyone really liked who was tricked into evil and too dumb to realise it.

It wasn't a potshot, I just said I found Revan more interesting because his heroic were real, his goal was noble and you could totally relate with his story. I can't relate with Dooku's story, partially because ****ing politics isn't as interesting as war, partly because I can't see how the government being corrupt can justify starting a war that would murder b/trillions of people and partly because Dooku wasn't as big a hero as Revan was before his fall.

That does indeed sound pretty lame.

Anyway, let's walk through it:

Revan = legendary Jedi; Dooku = legendary Jedi.

Revan = wants to save the galaxy; Dooku = wants to save the galaxy.

Revan = disillusioned with precepts of the Jedi Council and an ineffective Republic; Dooku = disillusioned with precepts of the Jedi Council and an ineffective Republic.

Revan = opens himself to alternative tactics and means to accomplish his goal of saving the galaxy; Dooku = opens himself up to alternative tactics and means to accomplish his goal of saving the galaxy.

Revan = embraces the philosophy and powers of the Sith to achieve his ends; Dooku = embraces the philosophy and powers of the Sith to achieve his ends.

Revan = succumbs to the dark side, becomes a major prick whose reign of terror is interrupted by fate and betrayal; Dooku = succumbs to the dark side, becomes a major prick whose reign of terror is interrupted by fate and betrayal.

Revan = survives this interruption, is mentally rewired into becoming a Good Guy, and his story continues; Dooku = doesn't survive this interruption and dies a dark side accolyte, unredeemed.

The only difference (minus the conclusions of their stories) is that Revan "succeeded" in his goal of saving the galaxy due to circumstance whereas Dooku was trumped by a greater evil and foiled. (Though again, one could argue that his actions helped lead to the downfall of the Jedi and a corrupt Republic.)

Saying that Dooku was a moron yadda yadda is all well and good and fine, but there's really no difference.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This was a very uneconomic way of restating that you find Revan more compelling because he succeeded in his goal, which you already stated here:

I don't fault you for finding his success compelling; in fact, I don't even fault you for using that as the deciding factor between Revan and Dooku. I just know that you never cite success in any other similar debate. Which, of course, leads me to believe that you're being disingenuous for some sinister reason.

Well obviously I'm restating that I find Revan more compelling because he succeeded in his goal, because you asked my WHY I do so. Hence me explaining why I do so and you promptly missing ze point.

So.... nice job?

Originally posted by The_Tempest

That does indeed sound pretty lame.

Anyway, let's walk through it:

Revan = legendary Jedi; Dooku = legendary Jedi.

Revan = wants to save the galaxy; Dooku = wants to save the galaxy.

Revan = disillusioned with precepts of the Jedi Council and an ineffective Republic; Dooku = disillusioned with precepts of the Jedi Council and an ineffective Republic.

Revan = opens himself to alternative tactics and means to accomplish his goal of saving the galaxy; Dooku = opens himself up to alternative tactics and means to accomplish his goal of saving the galaxy.

Revan = embraces the philosophy and powers of the Sith to achieve his ends; Dooku = embraces the philosophy and powers of the Sith to achieve his ends.

Revan = succumbs to the dark side, becomes a major prick whose reign of terror is interrupted by fate and betrayal; Dooku = succumbs to the dark side, becomes a major prick whose reign of terror is interrupted by fate and betrayal.

Revan = survives this interruption, is mentally rewired into becoming a Good Guy, and his story continues; Dooku = doesn't survive this interruption and dies a dark side accolyte, unredeemed.

The only difference (minus the conclusions of their stories) is that Revan "succeeded" in his goal of saving the galaxy due to circumstance whereas Dooku was trumped by a greater evil and foiled. (Though again, one could argue that his actions helped lead to the downfall of the Jedi and a corrupt Republic.)

Saying that Dooku was a moron yadda yadda is all well and good and fine, but there's really no difference.

The similarities between them don't change that there were differences that made Revan's story more compelling. Sorry bro, I just don't find someone being tricked into being evil as compelling as Revan's stuff. Just like I don't find Revan being mind-tricked into being evil compelling in the new TOR stuff.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well obviously I'm restating that I find Revan more compelling because he succeeded in his goal, because you asked my WHY I do so. Hence me explaining why I do so and you promptly missing ze point.

So.... nice job?

There's no point to miss, my son. Appreciating Revan's success and finding that more engaging than another failed misguided-hero-falls-to-the-dark-side story is all well and good. I'm ok with that. But you've never used success as a measuring stick before otherwise Palpatine would shit all over every Sith Lord ever in your book, so I shrewdly perceive your reason as utterly valid on paper (again, success is cool) but but your argument in general as entirely dishonest.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The similarities between them don't change that there were differences that made Revan's story more compelling. Sorry bro, I just don't find someone being tricked into being evil as compelling as Revan's stuff. Just like I don't find Revan being mind-tricked into being evil compelling in the new TOR stuff.

My son, my son... I'm perfectly fine with you preferring Revan to Dooku. You needn't apologize for your preferences. That wasn't the issue.

And yes, being tricked into being evil is kinda goofy, innit?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There's no point to miss, my son. Appreciating Revan's success and finding that more engaging than another failed misguided-hero-falls-to-the-dark-side story is all well and good. I'm ok with that. But you've never used success as a measuring stick before otherwise Palpatine would shit all over every Sith Lord ever in your book, so I shrewdly perceive your reason as utterly valid on paper (again, success is cool) but but your argument in general as entirely dishonest.

If that's what you want to think that's cool, no dishonesty here, honest.

Sidious' success is a factor in his favor but it's undone by the horrible writing and acting around him that drags his story down. Plus as I said, that Revan successfully saving the galaxy was only one factor and is only significant because of how it meshes with the other aspects of his story. It only helps to make his fall bigger because it puts him on a higher level of heroism.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My son, my son... I'm perfectly fine with you preferring Revan to Dooku. You needn't apologize for your preferences. That wasn't the issue.

And yes, being tricked into being evil is kinda goofy, innit?

What is the issue then?

Dent a) had been established as the beacon of hope for Gotham beforehand b) wasn't tricked, he was made insane through extreme trauma and c) had quality storytelling and acting behind him on top of us actually seeing his fall and seeing what he goes through to get there, allowing us to become emotionally invested in his story.

Darth Bane: Path to Destruction.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Er... what? That's... Dooku in a nutshell.

Not quite.

Beg your pardon but have either of you read the ROTS novel? Since in that it's stated that Dooku was always evil (I know I'm over-simplifying). In the novel it flat-out states that Dooku never understood friendship, love or joy, and that he didn't perceive other living beings as "real." Put simply, Dooku was a sociopath.

Lmao.

Yeah. Read Path of the Jedi. Dooku says some pretty douchey things in it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lmao.

Don't take my word for it. Read the novel and see for yourself.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah. Read Path of the Jedi. Dooku says some pretty douchey things in it.

That he does.

Path and the Jedi and Book of the Sith were ****ing great BTW.

I thought it was a very interesting look into both the Jedi and the Sith Orders and Philosophies. Something I found rather amusing were the snide comments left by the Sith in Path of the Jedi, and the snide comments left by the Jedi in Book of the Sith.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Not quite.

Beg your pardon but have either of you read the ROTS novel? Since in that it's stated that Dooku was always evil (I know I'm over-simplifying). In the novel it flat-out states that Dooku never understood friendship, love or joy, and that he didn't perceive other living beings as "real." Put simply, Dooku was a sociopath.

A sociopath trying to do good, but his lack of empathy and the machinations of Lord Sidious lead to him unwittingly doing evil. It's tragic, because his very nature prohibits him from understanding he is doing wrong.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He already sounds more interesting than Revan.

A sociopath trying to do good, but his lack of empathy and the machinations of Lord Sidious lead to him unwittingly doing evil. It's tragic, because his very nature prohibits him from understanding he is doing wrong.

👆 I couldn't agree more with that statement

The Dark Lord trilogy.

Rise of Darth Vader, the Plagueis Novel, Deceived, Shatterpoint, and the ROTS novelization.