Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Kyp wasn't concentrating on anything, he just pushed Corran and then was standing there. He might've not expected to get pinned to the wall by Kenth, but Kenobi wasn't expected to get choked either, otherwise he wouldn't have been monologing. And he wasn't even in a fighting stance anyway, he just wanted to trade himself for the girl or something.
You never "expect" to get Choked, lol. It's nonsense to suggest that he was willingly heading into battle with Maul but left himself completely open in the Force.
He wasn't talking that much, lol. It's not like Kas'im's speech before Bane unleashed his Wave or anything. And he was charging at Maul, so yeah, that's a fighting stance if I've ever seen one.
I mean, that comparison is utterly ridiculous. Kyp getting TK'd whilst not even facing Kenth and just after TK'ing Corran is now comparable to Obi-Wan getting Choked as he charges towards Maul in voluntary preparation for battle? Ludicrous.
All in all, your acceptance or dismissal of what is a legit ragdolling and what is not is pretty inconsistent. I remember you even trying to write off Vader ragdolling Starkiller as a "momentary laps in defense", when Kenobi pretty much only gets ragdolled like that...
That is how Choke works, but seeing as Galen actually broke out of the Choke as opposed to Kenobi being helpless every time it happens to him, I'm thinking the examples aren't very similar. Obi-Wan's clearly being dominated. Starkiller justifiably isn't, since he rebuffs Vader immediately afterward.
Doubt it, unless out of ignorance. I don't dismiss off-screen/page out of the length of a duel.
Alright.
Originally posted by SunRazer
You never "expect" to get Choked, lol. It's nonsense to suggest that he was willingly heading into battle with Maul but left himself completely open in the Force.
🙄
I didn't say he let his defense down for the lulz, it's just he wasn't preparded. And as it happens he let himself completely open to a saber attack, since his own was to his side.
Also it's just as nonesense to let your defenses down when you just assaulted a fellow jedi in a hangar full of them 😬
Originally posted by SunRazer
He wasn't talking that much, lol. It's not like Kas'im's speech before Bane unleashed his Wave or anything. And he was charging at Maul, so yeah, that's a fighting stance if I've ever seen one.
As if the length of the speech has anything to do with this...It's about being interrupted or not. Kasim finished speaking, Kenobi didn't.
FYI this is how a fighting stance looks like:
Not this:
Originally posted by SunRazer
I mean, that comparison is utterly ridiculous. Kyp getting TK'd whilst not even facing Kenth and just after TK'ing Corran is now comparable to Obi-Wan getting Choked as he charges towards Maul in voluntary preparation for battle? Ludicrous.
Lel why you lyin'? Kyp was facing Kenth, since he pushed Corran toward him. And if your idea of prepared is running with saber to your side monologing, then I guess every ragdoll ever was ****ing legit.
Originally posted by SunRazer
That is how Choke works, but seeing as Galen actually broke out of the Choke as opposed to Kenobi being helpless every time it happens to him, I'm thinking the examples aren't very similar. Obi-Wan's clearly being dominated. Starkiller justifiably isn't, since he rebuffs Vader immediately afterward.
1. Starkiller didn't break out, Vader threw him.
2. Kenobi could've broken out from Dooku's choke for example (ofc you gonna deny this again).
3. Kyp couldn't break out either since he remained pinned to the ship.
Not sure if ignorance of the subject of the debate or double standard 😬
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
🙄I didn't say he let his defense down for the lulz, it's just he wasn't preparded. And as it happens he let himself completely open to a saber attack, since his own was to his side.
How the heck do you run towards somebody with a lightsaber if you don't move it to the side?
Besides, Obi-Wan was choked by Dooku when he attacked with his saber right in front of him. He wasn't open to a saber attack at all. So what's your defense there? Or the one in the Florrum caves?
Also it's just as nonesense to let your defenses down when you just assaulted a fellow jedi in a hangar full of them 😬
That'd be true if Denning novels weren't filled with shit like that, lmfao. And as a Denning novel, I'm not too sure how seriously I take this, anyway. Maybe I shouldn't have popularized this feat, then.
As if the length of the speech has anything to do with this...It's about being interrupted or not. Kasim finished speaking, Kenobi didn't.
No, it's because Kas'im literally stopped the duel so he could monologue. Obi-Wan shouting at Maul whilst charging at him... doesn't compare.
FYI this is how a fighting stance looks like:
Kyp wasn't in a fighting stance either.
Lel why you lyin'? Kyp [b]was facing Kenth, since he pushed Corran toward him.[/b]
Sure, Corran flew in the direction of the other Jedi, but Kyp obviously would've been facing Corran, not Kenth directly. Kyp wouldn't have even known who was going to target him. He literally just threw Corran right after an argument with him.
And if your idea of prepared is running with saber to your side monologing, then I guess every ragdoll ever was ****ing legit.
"Monologuing". Yelling at Maul to release someone isn't much of a monologue.
1. Starkiller didn't break out, Vader threw him.
Isn't this the one where Starkiller Pushes Vader and gets out? Or is this another one?
2. Kenobi could've broken out from Dooku's choke for example (ofc you gonna deny this again).
No, that's the only example you could've brought up, lmfao. And no, the fact that the suddenness of the attack kept Obi-Wan from countering doesn't mean that his attempt to counter would've been successful otherwise. You could also argue that every single ragdoll is just "too sudden". Only the ones where people can't get out of being pinned to a wall or something couldn't be argued. But of course, your Obi-Wan wank wouldn't let you see it that way, would it?
Also, this is the same novel that Dooku has infinite stamina in, as opposed to Anakin shitting on his reserves, and him getting tired toying with Anakin and Obi-Wan at once. As I recall, you were using the latter in the last discussion we had about Dooku vs Obi-Wan. Pick which one you're using, lol.
3. Kyp couldn't break out either since he remained pinned to the ship.
Right, which is why he was dominated. Not the same as Starkiller, which was the example we were comparing for this.
Your ignorance and/or double standards are astounding.
Impressive, since you pull similar double-standards by jumping between sources to sell Dooku's performance in the RotS novel in the worst light possible, and only take the good sources for Obi-Wan's performance there. Are you sure it's double standards, or blind Obi-Wan wankery on your part? 😂
And no, I don't have any double-standards. Kyp was indeed dominated, but as I said, the circumstances are different. Either Obi-Wan just has a habit of letting his defenses down mid-duel, or he was actually ragdolled. Pick.
Originally posted by SunRazer
How the heck do you run towards somebody with a lightsaber if you don't move it to the side?
In the front maybe. Pls don't say this is how you usually run?
Originally posted by SunRazer
Besides, Obi-Wan was choked by Dooku when he attacked with his saber right in front of him. He wasn't open to a saber attack at all. So what's your defense there? Or the one in the Florrum caves?
Dooku was too fast. And on Florrum, uhm what excuse to use beside Kenobi using the most taxing saber form against two very powerful and skilled opponents? Hmm I got none tbh.
Besides Maul obviously couldn't maintain it, otherwise why let go? He could've just let Kenobi hanging and Savage would've captured him.
Originally posted by SunRazer
That'd be true if Denning novels weren't filled with shit like that, lmfao. And as a Denning novel, I'm not too sure how seriously I take this, anyway. Maybe I shouldn't have popularized this feat, then.
So who's nitpicking sources now. Hypocrisy?
Originally posted by SunRazer
No, it's because Kas'im literally stopped the duel so he could monologue. Obi-Wan shouting at Maul whilst charging at him... doesn't compare.
Yes it doesn't, since Kasim was prepared and Kenobi wasn't. Good that you agree 👆
Originally posted by SunRazer
Kyp wasn't in a fighting stance either.
FYI I'm not saying that Kenth ragdolling was legit, just pointing out your double standards.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Sure, Corran flew in the direction of the other Jedi, but Kyp obviously would've been facing Corran, not Kenth directly. Kyp wouldn't have even known who was going to target him. He literally just threw Corran right after an argument with him.
So now you need eye contact to be able to defend yourself?
Originally posted by SunRazer
"Monologuing". Yelling at Maul to release someone isn't much of a monologue.
Is this suppose to be an argument?
Originally posted by SunRazer
Isn't this the one where Starkiller Pushes Vader and gets out? Or is this another one?
Sorry for the FPS cancer.
Originally posted by SunRazer
No, that's the only example you could've brought up, lmfao. And no, the fact that the suddenness of the attack kept Obi-Wan from countering doesn't mean that his attempt to counter would've been successful otherwise. You could also argue that every single ragdoll is just "too sudden". Only the ones where people can't get out of being pinned to a wall or something couldn't be argued. But of course, your Obi-Wan wank wouldn't let you see it that way, would it?
Nice ad hominem 🙂
We've been through this before, but your Dooku wank wouldn't let you see it that way. Why only mention the suddenness of the attack as the reason Kenobi couldn't counter if in reality it was because the power of the attack?
Hint: Because the suddenness was the reason, not the power.
Spot the difference:
*He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden.
*He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too powerful.
*He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden and powerful.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, this is the same novel that Dooku has infinite stamina as opposed to Anakin shitting on his reserves, and him getting tired toying with Anakin and Obi-Wan at once. Pick which one you're using, lol.
How about all of the sources?
Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, which is why he was dominated. Not the same as Starkiller, which was the example we were comparing for this.
But you said that Kenobi's inability to break out Chokes is a sign that he was legit dominated, and not just caughed offgaurd. Yet you don't apply the same principle to Kyp.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Impressive, since you pull similar double-standards by jumping between sources to sell Dooku's performance in the RotS novel in the worst light possible, and only take the good sources for Obi-Wan's performance there. Are you sure it's double standards, or blind Obi-Wan wankery on your part? 😂
Hardly. I use both novels. In one of the novel Kenobi was said to be able to counter the Count's choke in the other he wasn't ragdolled at all, just pushed mid falling. No source to my knowledge unquestionably says Dooku stomps Kenobi.
I don't use the comic, because I don't have it.
But this is pretty ironic coming from you, since you wanted to dismiss the entire novel description of the fight based on a kick Kenobi got in the comic in a previous debate we had...
Originally posted by SunRazer
And no, I don't have any double-standards. Kyp was indeed dominated, but as I said, the circumstances are different. Either Obi-Wan just has a habit of letting his defenses down mid-duel, or he was actually ragdolled. Pick.
You used double standards again in this very post 😬
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
In the front maybe. Pls don't say this is how you usually run?
It's to the front and side. Diagonally in front. Pretty normal This little nitpicking isn't getting us anywhere. If neither of us have deferred to the other's explanation by now, we never will. This is basically just us imposing our views on what happened on each other, which isn't going to work. There's no definitive proof of this either way and our inherent biases will make us speculate one way or another. That's all it is, really.
Weird running doesn't equate to lowered Force defenses, anyway.
Dooku was too fast. And on Florrum, uhm what excuse to use beside Kenobi using the most taxing saber form against two very powerful and skilled opponents? Hmm I got none tbh.
Obi-Wan used Ataru for not very long, lol. He's shown way better stamina against Anakin on Mustafar.
Besides Maul obviously couldn't maintain it, otherwise why let go? He could've just let Kenobi hanging and Savage would've captured him.
That's like saying why didn't Dooku just impale Obi-Wan when he Choked him, instead of throwing him into the wall? Obvious PIS. You know, 'cuz Obi-Wan lives to ANH.
So who's nitpicking sources now. Hypocrisy?
That's not nitpicking sources. That's justifying what something happened because it happens repeatedly in a source. Which is why you can argue that TCW has a habit of shitting on Obi-Wan, lol.
Yes it doesn't, since Kasim was prepared and Kenobi wasn't. Good that you agree
Kenobi wasn't because he was in Ataru or because he decided to shout "release her, I'm the one you want"? Amazing.
FYI I'm not saying that Kenth ragdolling was legit, just pointing out your double standards.
There's no double standards. Obi-Wan charging at Maul doesn't even compare to Kyp and Kenth, that's just ludicrous. But as I said, if we don't see eye-to-eye on this, then there's no point continuing.
So now you need eye contact to be able to defend yourself?
I didn't say anything about eye contact. But Kyp had no idea who was going to attack him and we know that general Force defenses aren't all that effective. It has to be specific.
Is this suppose to be an argument?
Yeah. That your monologue claim is BS.
Sorry for the FPS cancer.
The GIF seems to end with him being raised up. What happens next?
Nice ad hominem 🙂We've been through this before, but your Dooku wank wouldn't let you see it that way.
Considering that I even posted a quote for Mace > Dooku, yeah, no. I'm more than willing to see it in many ways. I've got a much more bipartisan record than others, here.
Why only mention the suddenness of the attack as the reason Kenobi couldn't counter if in reality it was because the power of the attack?
Because the suddeness takes precedence? It was the immediate factor, not the constant one. As I said, they're not mutually exclusive.
That's like saying that any master of TK could pin Kyp, since the text says that "the same [not mastering TK] was not true of Kenth Hamner".
Hint: Because the suddenness was the reason, not the power.Spot the difference:
*He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden.
*He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too powerful.
*He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden and powerful.
The last quote is simply too awkward, though I could of course see it appearing in the novel. But they're still not mutually exclusive.
How about all of the sources?
But... you don't.
But you said that Kenobi's inability to break out Chokes is a sign that he was legit dominated, and not just caughed offgaurd. Yet you don't apply the same principle to Kyp.
No, I said Obi-Wan's repeated inability to break out is what makes it different from Starkiller's one. If Obi-Wan was also only Choked once, you might have a valid point. His history of being Choked would suggest that he's being dominated, unless there's valid circumstances against him every single time. Or perhaps his Force defenses are just shit.
Hardly. I use both novels. In one of the novel Kenobi was said to be able to counter the Count's choke in the other he wasn't ragdolled at all, just pushed mid falling. No source to my knowledge unquestionably says Dooku stomps Kenobi.
I haven't seen you do that, but whatever.
The junior novel is alone on a number of things regarding the fight. Such as Dooku having infinite stamina, where both the script and the novel show him tiring. I find it strange that both concepts are one-offs that aren't supported by anything else despite the vast amount of material on the fight, which simply label Dooku beating Obi-Wan.
And in the novel, Dooku holds Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one-handed bind whilst fending off Anakin. I'm inclined to think it isn't the actual physical bind, lol, but one related to the Force. There's also TCSWE saying that Dooku bested Obi-Wan but was unable to "overpower" Anakin, which suggests that he overpowered Obi-Wan.
I don't use the comic, because I don't have it.
The scan's pretty widespread on the internet. And you can read it for free on readcomiconline.to anyway.
But this is pretty ironic coming from you, since you wanted to dismiss the entire novel description of the fight based on a kick Kenobi got in the comic in a previous debate we had...
Wrong. I said we take the average, since it's two extreme depictions of a fight. I was saying that since you only took the novel description and I said we need to consider other things.
You used double standards again in this very post 😬
No, I didn't. And please don't turn this into a double-standards call-out fest.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Kinda rooting for Zoltan ngl.Also stop it you two, there is to be no actual debating on kmc
Well it's pretty much over anyway, we were going in circles and as Nova said if we haven't convinced the other so far it's not gona happen.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He failed to respond to my question about whether he takes confirmed events in the prima guide
I do, but the cannon overloading is a scripted non-QTE event in the game so I considered it before anyway.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
since he apparently takes cutscenes from all game versions since they're events that in different possible realities could have happened ( that's his actual reasoning lmao ).
Lmao all you want, but taking all the sources that are on the same canon level seriously is more objective than arbitrary picking one that best suits my agenda. Which is what you do 😬