Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage

Originally posted by AncientPower
Windu beat Sidious with not only a huge Vaapad amp far beyond any he had ever had before but also a massively circumstantial mind-set that in and of itself would have made him a much deadlier combatant.

And I wonder how much of this argument holds up in the new Official Canon.

Originally posted by Arhael

And you don't have an agenda?

No he's the only one without an Agenda here.

For me this is all part of a 3 step conspiracy process to prove that Dooku can take Sidious 😬

For the record I don't think Dooku has a chance against Sidious. At beating him or stalemating him. He will only lose. Because if he had even a chance of winning (or stalemating) Sidious then he would have risked it and challenged him.

In fact I don't even think he could take many wins against Windu. I think his best option against Windu is fighting defensively holding him off to a stalemate.

Because Windu is Stronger than Dooku, and Sidious is just vastly more powerful (Stronger + Immensely more Powerful TK).

For the record I don't think Dooku has a chance against Sidious. At beating him or stalemating him. He will only lose. Because if he had even a chance of winning (or stalemating) Sidious then he would have risked it and challenged him.

In fact I don't even think he could take many wins against Windu. I think his best option against Windu is fighting defensively holding him off to a stalemate.

Because Windu is Stronger than Dooku, and Sidious is just vastly more powerful (Stronger + Immensely more Powerful TK).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I would respond to all of this if you could discuss it without going crazy.

Nothing I said was particularly hostile or offensive, just blunt. But we all know I've had your number on this debate since Feb '13.

As far as my agenda goes, it's the same as Filoni's: Sidious is a BAMF and next to him, the Zabraks ain't. 👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nothing I said was particularly hostile or offensive, just blunt. But we all know I've had your number on this debate since Feb '13.

As far as my agenda goes, it's the same as Filoni's: Sidious is a BAMF and next to him, the Zabraks ain't. 👆

Urm no... Your agenda is to put Maul + Opress on the same level as the B-Team when taking on Sidious. But considering one of Filoni's first comments on that fight was addressing just that point completely contradicting your idea on the issue, it's really me whose had your number since (whenever) 😉

The Big Difference between you and Filoni- You would never say what he said about Opress putting up a better fight than the B-Team.

But yes your right about Maul being no where near Sidious in power. So you can worship Sidious based on that all you like, but there's no need to degrade Maul/Opress to B-Team level in the process.

You've been backpedaling on Obi-Wan/Maul and Sidious/Maul/Opress for over a year now, tacitly conceding to my original interpretations.

They're fodder, bro. That's all. Sidious is a zillion times better and there's nothing they or you or anyone else can do about it. All that fight ever amounted to was a protracted dissection to alleviate Sheev's boredom.

#FiloniStandsWithMe

Because as we all know, being B-Team level is a bad thing, POWER.

There were many points in the duel he could have ended it before he did.

At any point, really.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

You've been backpedaling on Obi-Wan/Maul and Sidious/Maul/Opress for over a year now, tacitly conceding to my original interpretations.

They're fodder, bro. That's all. Sidious is a zillion times better and there's nothing they or you or anyone else can do about it. All that fight ever amounted to was a protracted dissection to alleviate Sheev's boredom.

#FiloniStandsWithMe

Sidious is love. Sidious is life.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No I was trying to look at his expression right after Maul's punch- just before the backflip kick. It's at that time he was surrounded by the 2, and was avoiding a punch from Maul, when he floors Savage with that back kick, and next time we see him, he's definitely not smiling, and knocks Maul out with Tk.

I explained why he was no longer smiling. He was at a position of disadvantage (deactivated lightsabers; not in combat stance) while Maul was flying at him. That particular scene indicates that Sidious could have used the force on them mid-duel, you know, when he was just standing there smiling right before Savage flipped over him. Again, that entire sequence out side of the palace just shows that Sidious wasn't taking the fight seriously, and that they weren't pressing him at all in sabers, otherwise he'd have used the force when pausing and allowing them to strategize their moves, which is why Savage managed to leap over him in the first place. He prolonged the fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You have proof of that from Official Canon? Might as well stick with Official Canon sources here seen as we are discussing Filoni's comments so since he doesn't consider EU Legends Canon, there's no point in mixing and matching, because they are not consistent with each other.

Yeah his fight with Grievous shows he is faster than Kenobi, at least in official canon. Official canon shows Kenobi getting his ass beat by grievous or being bested in strict sabers up until ROTS. Fisto was relaxed and was hardly even pressed by Grievous, and was forcing him on the defensive throughout the duel.

Not to mention that being a saber master would require one to be fast by jedi standards, and good enough to use their speed in combat, whether it's reaction speed or striking speed. A saber master would have advanced all around combat speed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thing is the demeanor Sidious had when fighting the B-Team is not his only demeanor when not messing around, as we clearly saw in his fight against Yoda.

This has been explained to you numerous times. You have a habit of bringing up things that have been cleared up.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course Yoda was a proper challenge and struggle so there were immensely more serious instances for Sidious in that fight where we visibly see Sidious's struggle, but it doesn't change his overall demeanor in that fight, showing he will laugh in fights even when he's clearly not messing around, as long as he's confident of the outcome.

During his saber duel with Yoda, Sidious showed signs of frustration, anger, fear and strain more than anything else. Hardly comparable.

Stop grasping at straws.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well no because Filoni never mentioned the 1 0n 1, or the 2 0n 1, before Savage went down. He just gave Savage credit for the fight he put up against Sidious before getting killed. There's no reason to think that just means their 1 on 1, when none of the Council members ever faced Sidious 1 on 1, and Savage was clearly already tired and wounded by the time his 1 on 1 came along.

Again, grasping at straws.

Filoni wasn't specific at all. He made that single statement without mentioning the clearly noticeable circumstance.

My point is, he didn't mention that Sidious was toying with Savage during their one on one, therefore, by your logic, Sidious was fighting his hardest, and Savage performed better against Sidious than he did against Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But yes of course 1 on 1 Sidious can take Savage out faster than Maul did. Dooku also takes Savage out incredible quickly one on one (their training session). But just having Ventress help him clearly made a huge difference.

Not by your logic. Evidently, you don't use feats out side of that fight to determine how seriously Sidious was taking that fight or how quickly he could have ended it, so why do so now?

Filoni didn't mention that Sidious was toying around during the one on one, therefore he lasted that long because he's just that good by your logic.

If you're going to keep harping on that single comment, then it's not up to you to determine which parts of the fight the comment applies to. Either you consider it or you don't, since Filoni wasn't specific.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well technically he didn't go "straight" for the kill with the Council Members. He only took out his Sabers after the Jedi ignited theirs. Same with Maul/Opress, and same with Yoda in fact.

He was sitting down pretending to be surprised by their arrival to make it seem as if the jedi were trying to take control of the republic by force. You've read the novel. Stop.

When he did ignite his saber, though, he went straight for the kill. He flew at them and attacked first, not relenting. That's Sidious's style of fighting. He's an aggressive saber duelist. He wasn't aggressive at all against the bros. And Before you say something silly like, "they were pressing him and forcing him on the defensive," I'll remind of the ease in which he used a force attack on Maul while Maul was flying at him, which indicates that Sidious could have used the force any time he wanted if he was being pressed, considering all those pauses he did during mid-combat, which suggests that he wasn't being pressed and that if he was, he'd not neglect the use of his powers. Then of course, there's the time he forced Maul on the edge of the balcony and relented his attack to start smiling all maniacally.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The reason I harp on about that 1 comment is because Filoni has already answered the topic we go around and around in circles with. The fact that Opress (so clearly Maul as well), put up a better fight than the Jedi B-Team.

You're the only one who keeps going around in circles. To assume Sidious couldn't blitz Savage, would suggest that you either believe Maul to be superior to Windu, who couldn't prevent his team from being butchered in seconds, or you believe Savage is a better back up and far more threatening than three saber masters, despite the fact that Filoni doesn't even think he's skilled enough to be labeled one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When he's answered such a specific question for us I don't see why we have to keep on going in circles over it.

You're the one who keeps bringing up invalid points, and switching up your logic when it suits you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He maybe. I'm just pointing out that the more powerful the opponent, the more of a threat they are, rather than 2 or 3 less powerful opponents.

Not when the his power couldn't come to play against Sidious. Him and Maul couldn't even repulse Sidious TK grip on them. They couldn't even prevent Sidious from force pulling them off the balcony as he was falling.

Again, Savage's superiority over most opponents is irrelevant when it comes to Sidious, so what does his advantage over others have to do with Sidious?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Despite Opress's lack of Saber mastery he clearly eats Council Members for Breakfast, and has defeated some extremely skilled Saber duelists.

Probably because of the advantages he holds over most of them, which are advantages that clearly didn't come to play against Sidious.

Stop using ABC type arguments.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, (And Kenobi on occasion as well). Plus he's battered Ventress, and shown himself to be more of a threat to Count Dooku than Kenobi ever was.

Brute strength, something that barely had an effect on Sidious, and something that can't prevent him from being blitzed by Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Filoni never said Opress wasn't as "Fast" as other Council Members. Given how he fought Ventress and Adi Gallia I think he's clearly pretty damn fast.

Sidious would blitz Ventress and Adi, so what's your point? Savage being fast enough to react to and hold his own against force users who are miles below Sidious in speed is meaningless.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So not sure how putting him above Fisto or Tiin is lowballing them. It's because he's better than them individually that he puts up a better struggle alongside Maul than all 3 of the Council do alongside Windu. Although technically it was only Fisto who actually traded Saber blows with Sidious while Sidious was simultaneously trading blows with Windu).

Savage's superiority over most force users comes from his brute strength and TK (you're the one who quoted Filoni on this). His advantages over most force users are not advantages that would save him from being blitzed by Sidious.

Maul is confirmed by a highly reputable source to be "quicker and deadlier" than Sheev.

Sheev is lucky Maul held back.

Sidious would blitz Ventress and Adi, so what's your point? Savage being fast enough to react to and hold his own against force users who are miles below Sidious in speed is meaningless.

Originally posted by Arhael
Proof? 😮‍💨

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Originally posted by Arhael
Damn, Yoda's visions are useless. Inserting the hood into the scene, where there wasn't one.

At least it looks a lot better than the movie version of that Blitz.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not to mention that being a saber master would require one to be fast by jedi standards, and good enough to use their speed in combat, whether it's reaction speed or striking speed. A saber master would have advanced all around combat speed.

What are you saying? That being a Saber Master by default makes one as fast as Savage? Do you not think All Jedi Masters are Saber Masters?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This has been explained to you numerous times. You have a habit of bringing up things that have been cleared up.

No just because you and Tempest "claim" it's been thoroughly addressed several times doesn't mean you have successfully done so. In fact I and others have rebutted your explanations numerous times. Yet you have the same habit of going back to that same point "But Sidious was laughing!!"

Your and Tempest's explanations do not answer the point at hand:

If Sidious can laugh while fighting Yoda (a fight he's clearly not going to mess about with), then why can't he laugh while seriously fighting Maul+Opress who are miles and miles below Yoda?

If Sidious can emjoy himself while fighting Yoda (a fight he's clearly not going to mess about with), then why can't enjoy himself while seriously fighting Maul+Opress who are miles and miles below Yoda?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
During his saber duel with Yoda, Sidious showed signs of frustration, anger, fear and strain more than anything else. Hardly comparable.

Yes because Yoda pressed him. Yoda is an opponent miles and miles ahead of Maul+Opress. That doesn't take away from the fact that Sidious also smiled, crackled and laughed in a fight he obviously took deadly serious.

Sidious also showed 1 sign of frustration against the brothers, when he KO'd Mual with TK. He also showed signs of anger twice. Once right before his initial Tk attack- He clearly says "You are trying to deceive me" with anger. He also says "You have been replaced" again with clear Anger in his voice.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, grasping at straws.

Filoni wasn't specific at all. He made that single statement without mentioning the clearly noticeable circumstance.

My point is, he didn't mention that Sidious was toying with Savage during their one on one, therefore, by your logic, Sidious was fighting his hardest, and Savage performed better against Sidious than he did against Maul.

What? He clearly meant the whole fight Opress put up. Why would he have to specify he's talking about the 2 on 1? Why would he only talk about the final part of the fight when Opress was already tired and injured?

The fact that Filoni has clearly addressed the point why Opress didn't get blitz shows I'm not the one grasping here.

My point was directly addressed and agreed upon a long time ago.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not by your logic. Evidently, you don't use feats out side of that fight to determine how seriously Sidious was taking that fight or how quickly he could have ended it, so why do so now?

Which feats? Him blitzing the Council. Opponents that you've yet to prove are as fast as Maul and Savage, and a point that again, has been clearly addressed by Filoni.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He was sitting down pretending to be surprised by their arrival to make it seem as if the jedi were trying to take control of the republic by force. You've read the novel. Stop.

The Novel isn't part of the new official canon. He doesn't say in the film "Oh no please don't, whay are you attacking me" e.t.c while recording it, in the film, or script for that matter.

He knew they were coming. But he didn't just jump them straight for the kill before anyone could make any kind of move.

He in fact talked to them first, waited for them to ignite their Sabers FIRST and then took out his Saber (still talking in fact) before going in to attack them.

Same with Maul+Opress, except he actually attacked them first, without them directly threatening him in the slightest. But again he only took out his Sabers after the Brothers took out theirs.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When he did ignite his saber, though, he went straight for the kill. He flew at them and attacked first, not relenting. That's Sidious's style of fighting. He's an aggressive saber duelist. He wasn't aggressive at all against the bros. And Before you say something silly like, "they were pressing him and forcing him on the defensive," I'll remind of the ease in which he used a force attack on Maul while Maul was flying at him, which indicates that Sidious could have used the force any time he wanted if he was being pressed, considering all those pauses he did during mid-combat, which suggests that he wasn't being pressed and that if he was, he'd not neglect the use of his powers. Then of course, there's the time he forced Maul on the edge of the balcony and relented his attack to start smiling all maniacally.

You and Tempest analyze every second of the fight to a fanatical degree trying to prove Sidious was extending the fight.

I do agree if Sidious went completely "all out" with TK attacks from the outset, it likely would have been a much shorter fight, and he may not even have needed his Lightsabers. But even that doesn't mean he was "purposefully" extending the fight. I mean shouldn't EVERY Jedi/Sith do that right from the outset when fighting Grievous? Does the fact that they don't mean they are purposefully extending the fight? It's just what's in character for combatants to do. It's in character for Sidious to do Force attack right from the onset, act a bit cocky, then start fighting again properly, as we saw against his Ultimate Foe- Yoda.

Plus considering he never used TK against the Council, I don't see what any of that proves in relation to comparing the Maul Brothers to the Council Members in question.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're the only one who keeps going around in circles. To assume Sidious couldn't blitz Savage, would suggest that you either believe Maul to be superior to Windu, who couldn't prevent his team from being butchered in seconds, or you believe Savage is a better back up and far more threatening than three saber masters, despite the fact that Filoni doesn't even think he's skilled enough to be labeled one.

I'm suggesting Savage is much better back up than either of those individual masters. Only 1 of whom actually got the chance to fight alongside Mace.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, Savage's superiority over most opponents is irrelevant when it comes to Sidious, so what does his advantage over others have to do with Sidious?

Probably because of the advantages he holds over most of them, which are advantages that clearly didn't come to play against Sidious.

Brute strength, something that barely had an effect on Sidious, and something that can't prevent him from being blitzed by Sidious.

Sidious would blitz Ventress and Adi, so what's your point? Savage being fast enough to react to and hold his own against force users who are miles below Sidious in speed is meaningless.

Savage's superiority over most force users comes from his brute strength and TK (you're the one who quoted Filoni on this). His advantages over most force users are not advantages that would save him from being blitzed by Sidious.

Filoni never said Opress's "Only" advantages were "Strength" and "Tk".

He said he lacks skill and training. Not speed or power. And he never even suggested that Opress isn't a really formidable opponent. He in fact emphasizes how powerful they had to show him, to make Kenobi's final victory over him all the more exciting/impressive.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Stop using ABC type arguments.

Hey? That's exactly what you used to "prove" Fisto is faster than Kenobi.

In official canon:

1. Luminara and Barriss are both known for their "Incredible" Lightsaber skills (official site). That suggests something above just being "Masters." Luminara is obviously a Master in all respects anyway.
Anyway Ventress early in TCW was easily stalemating Luminara. Later in TCW we know Sidious noted Ventress becoming considerably more powerful.
Yet Savage still beat her. Even used superior "speed" against her when disarming her.

2. Opress beats "Masters" in direct Saber combat. Council level Masters no less.

3. Fisto has an impressive feat in besting Grievous. But Ventress flat out beat a better trained Grievous in pure Sabers. (In official canon Dathomir is not a dark side nexus as far as I'm aware). And this was reinforced by Filoni saying Grievous isn't a match for someone of Ventress's caliber.

4. No Vapaad dark side superconducting loop in official canon (well not yet) means Mace is at least a "near equal" to Sidious in Pure Sabers if nothing else. Yet Mace did not blitz Maul.

So where is the proof in the new "Offical" Canon that Fisto, Tiin or Kolar are as fast or formidable as Opress? There isn't any.

The fight we saw in "The Lawless" added to Filoni's direct comparison clearly indicates Opress is above any of those 3, in Speed and Overall Saber/Close Combat ability. And Maul is far above Opress.

I love how Sidious being the most powerful Sith just isn't good enough for them.

DP, I don't know if you take requests, but I love the stuff about how people who are laughing and smiling are obviously taking shit super-seriously. Could you go more in-depth about that?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I love how Sidious being the most powerful Sith just isn't good enough for them.

Tell me you're not still bitter over the fact that Sidious is better than Bane in every facet of life.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP, I don't know if you take requests,

No I'm too famous for that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
but I love the stuff about how people who are laughing and smiling are obviously taking shit super-seriously. Could you go more in-depth about that?

I'm not saying that laughing and smiling equates to taking things super-seriously.

I'm saying we already know Sidious is willing to laugh and smile while doing something that he's serious about doing. I mean even as he killed Opress he was smiling/laughing. Even as he was in the fight of his life against Yoda, he laughed and smiled when he could.

Obviously against opponents like Maul+Opress who are miles and miles below Yoda, he can laugh and smile a heck of a lot more than he could against Yoda. Doesn't mean he's not serious about being there and "kicking their butt" as Filoni would put it. Or "destroying his rivals" as the Official site puts it.

And as has been exhaustively explained to you, using Yoda as a measuring stick for Opress and Maul is a bad idea. No one disputes that Sidious took some of his fight with Yoda casually. The difference/s are that Yoda, unlike the brothers, gave as good as he got and there are plenty of moments where Sidious is taking the fight quite seriously, evincing struggle, strain, and fear. None of that with the brothers, though. They were never a challenge.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP, I don't know if you take requests, but I love the stuff about how people who are laughing and smiling are obviously taking shit super-seriously. Could you go more in-depth about that?

Because he laughed at Yoda while he was, like, miles away from him. Cleary that overshadows his consistent looks of frustration, strain and fear throughout his fight with Yoda. Very comparable to his laughing, smiling, pausing and trolling of the brothers throughout the entire fight.

DP,
Savage didn't outpace Ventress. Their saber clashes forced her on the defense and unbalanced her, leaving her vulnerable to a physical attack. Ventress was the one outpacing him by a very noticeable degree (hence all the physical attacks she landed while disarmed). And since we are going by strict canon, prove that Ventress is faster than Fisto. Their performances against Grievous puts them in the same speed category, except Ventress only started outpacing Grievous when she was clearly frustrated (going full throttle) after being put on her ass by Grievous, whereas Fisto was casually outpacing him while fighting with a very calm demeanor. Prove Grievous was better trained during his fight with Ventress. I'd have just as much success in proving Fisto got better as of his fight with Sidious.

You're the only one trying to apply Filoni's comment to certain parts of the fight, which isn't your call to make. Either you accept the comment or you don't. You suggest that Sidious wasn't trying his hardest during their one on one by using out side fights to compare (Maul vs Savage) and Sidious visibly being portrayed as not taking him seriously, which is no different than the logic I'm using with the fight as a whole. Yes, Filoni made that comment, and also regarded and depicted the context of the fight much differently than how Sidious was depicted in his fight against the council members.

Point is, if Sidious wanted to take Savage out with a killing blow, he'd blitz him, and there is absolutely nothing Maul could do to prevent it, given that Mace + Fisto couldn't prevent Sidious from one-shotting saber masters each, unless Maul is a great deal better than Mace, or Savage is vastly faster and more precise than actual saber masters. If Savage is skilled enough in all around combat speed, being precise enough to hold his own against Sidious far better than the B-team, that would make him a better duelist than them (by force using standards) by default, which would contradict the idea of them being saber masters and him not being one, and it wouldn't make sense for Filoni to point out that his strength makes up for his lack of skill.

@Emperordmb, if you're unable to grasp the point of the thread and the arguments in it then don't make comments like that, as it makes you look even more pathetic when you cry and complain when someone puts Bane's feats in proper context, thus making Bane not nearly as powerful as you want him to be. In other words, don't troll and then cry when being trolled.