Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And as has been exhaustively explained to you, using Yoda as a measuring stick for Opress and Maul is a bad idea.

Why? Yoda's much better than them. So if he can laugh at Yoda while clearly still trying to defeat him, then why not laugh even more at the Maul bros while taking them out.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

The difference/s are that Yoda, unlike the brothers, gave as good as he got

Obviously. Yoda's a far more powerful opponent.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
and there are plenty of moments where Sidious is taking the fight quite seriously, evincing struggle, strain, and fear. None of that with the brothers, though. They were never a challenge.

I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

My point again is- If Sidious can laugh while attempting to defeat such a dangerous foe, then how/why does his laughter mean he's holding back against much lesser foes?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Because he laughed at Yoda while he was, like, miles away from him.

No, not just from miles away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUlqDMcS_RE

At 2:10 he clearly smiles/laughs while in a Saber lock with Yoda.

No amount of walls of text with speculations and interpretations will turn assumptions into facts. This thread is nothing but a fail.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

[B]DP,
Savage didn't outpace Ventress. Their saber clashes forced her on the defense and unbalanced her, leaving her vulnerable to a physical attack. Ventress was the one outpacing him by a very noticeable degree (hence all the physical attacks she landed while disarmed). And since we are going by strict canon, prove that Ventress is faster than Fisto. Their performances against Grievous puts them in the same speed category, except Ventress only started outpacing Grievous when she was clearly frustrated (going full throttle) after being put on her ass by Grievous, whereas Fisto was casually outpacing him while fighting with a very calm demeanor. Prove Grievous was better trained during his fight with Ventress. I'd have just as much success in proving Fisto got better as of his fight with Sidious. [/B]

Savage outpaced her when he swung around her to hit her from behind.
When she was disarmed she was using her size and mobility to jump around him. Kenobi was disarmed by Ventress in TCW movie and dodged all her attacks, that doesn't make him faster than her.
Grievous was still trained by Dooku during TCW in Canon. Since he says so to Kenobi in ROTS. But yeah I'll admit it's hard to prove Ventress is faster than Fisto based solely on his 1 fight with Grievous.
I just think Opress is faster and more formidable than Fisto solely based on their fights against Sidious backed by Filoni's comments on that very subject.
Otherwise if you just compare fights with other opponents then everyone seems equal in speed. Because Fisto beats Grievous, Kenobi struggles against Grievous, Kenobi stalemates Maul, Maul fights Windu and Secura together, Windu stalemates/beats Sidious. Or another way- Fisto beats Grievous, Kenobi struggles against Grievous, Kenobi fights Anakin, Anakin fights Dooku, Dooku fights Yoda, Yoda fights Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're the only one trying to apply Filoni's comment to certain parts of the fight, which isn't your call to make. Either you accept the comment or you don't. You suggest that Sidious wasn't trying his hardest during their one on one by using out side fights to compare (Maul vs Savage) and Sidious visibly being portrayed as not taking him seriously, which is no different than the logic I'm using with the fight as a whole. Yes, Filoni made that comment, and also regarded and depicted the context of the fight much differently than how Sidious was depicted in his fight against the council members.

I'm not applying Filoni's comments just to certain parts of the fight. I'm just applying it to the Whole fight he put up. Why would anyone just apply it to the final 1 on 1? As if Opress hadn't been putting up a fight before that?
That's like ignoring the part where Fisto blocked a few of Sidious's blows, and just looking at the "Sidious stabbed him" part, as if he didn't do any better than Tiin or Kolar.
Filoni's answered the very topic we're discussing a long time ago. So I just don't see why we're still discussing it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Point is, if Sidious wanted to take Savage out with a killing blow, he'd blitz him, and there is absolutely nothing Maul could do to prevent it, given that Mace + Fisto couldn't prevent Sidious from one-shotting saber masters each, unless Maul is a great deal better than Mace, or Savage is vastly faster and more precise than actual saber masters. If Savage is skilled enough in all around combat speed, being precise enough to hold his own against Sidious far better than the B-team, that would make him a better duelist than them (by force using standards) by default, which would contradict the idea of them being saber masters and him not being one, and it wouldn't make sense for Filoni to point out that his strength makes up for his lack of skill.

Again I'm confused. Why does them being "Saber Masters" make them better than him in a Saber fight, when he's already beaten other reputable Saber Masters in sword fights. And I'm definitely confused how it makes any of them as fast as him?
Filoni never said it's just Savage's "strength" that makes up for his lack of skill. He said he's just all "Rage and Power." Yet Filoni completely accepts Opress as being a very powerful villain whose difficult to beat.

Anyway I do appreciate you putting this down to 2/3 main points. But just doesn't look like we're going to agree on the Opress vs Fisto thing. To me it seems by the same argument of Fisto beating Grievous, you could start putting Fisto as Maul's equal too. Which would just be well over the top IMHO.

Again, there were times Sidious clearly wasn't taking Yoda seriously... but there were many more moments where he visibly was. Not the case with the brothers. Yoda was a challenge, they weren't. If Sidious wanted them dead quickly, as you yourself concede, they'd have died much sooner. That's tantamount to a backhanded concession that he wasn't fighting his hardest.

Don't get me started on the inane notion of "WELL HE WASNT TRYING HIS HARDEST IN FORCE BUT HE WAS IN SABERS BECAUSE REASONS"

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Again, there were times Sidious clearly wasn't taking Yoda seriously...

So you think he could have killed Yoda in those moments he was laughing?

You don't think he was taking Yoda seriously when they were in a Saber lock, because he chuckled?

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Yoda was a challenge, they weren't.

No ones's denying that. But it's got nothing to do with the laughing. Nor does it translate into a B-Team level blitz.

Is Ventress a challenge for Count Dooku? No. Is Ventress competition for Count Dooku? No. Did Ventress ever land even 1 hit on Dooku? No. Did Ventress ever have a chance of defeating or even stalemating Dooku 1 vs 1? No.

So does all of that mean Count Dooku speed blitzes Ventress? Well we've clearly seen the answer to that is No.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If Sidious wanted them dead quickly, as you yourself concede, they'd have died much sooner. That's tantamount to a backhanded concession that he wasn't fighting his hardest.

I've admitted if he just went all out with Tk/FL from the beginning, then it's very possible the fight would have ended a heck of a lot sooner, probably without Sidious even pulling out a Saber.

But that's also true of his fight with Yoda given he actually KO'd Yoda at the beginning.

It's also true for pretty much every Jedi/Sith who ever faces Grievous.

It's also probably true for that one on one Dooku and Ventress had.

So that's all more down to CIS than anything else. Him being cocky with his Force powers at the beginning of a fight has little to no reflection on the Lightsaber battle that follows.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Don't get me started on the inane notion of "WELL HE WASNT TRYING HIS HARDEST IN FORCE BUT HE WAS IN SABERS BECAUSE REASONS"

Well he didn't get into an extended Force battle for chuckles, so not sure why he'd get into an extended Saber battle for chuckles. He clearly showed them he can easily Overpower them both combined with The Force. So why didn't he clearly show that during the Saber fight?

You'd have a much better argument if he did.

And again Filoni's flat out said Opress simply put up a better fight than the Jedi Council. So I don't see why we're still going around in circles here, when Filoni has flat out answered the very point we're talking about long long ago.

I mean how often are we fortunate enough to have the Creator/Director address the very point of debate. And yet people still want to argue it 😬

I can only imagine if Filoni said commented on the Fisto/Grievous fight with something like "Fisto performed better against him than Kenobi".. I can only imagine how you and Sidious66 would have declared it as canon fact that Fisto > Kenobi a long time ago had he said anything even remotely like that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So you think he could have killed Yoda in those moments he was laughing?

If you're referring to when Yoda was KO'd or distracted with the Senate pod and Sidious did nothing but laugh, then probably. He at the very least could have pressed his advantage but did nothing.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You don't think he was taking Yoda seriously when they were in a Saber lock, because he chuckled?

Not when the next second he's snarling, squirming, and straining.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No ones's denying that. But it's got nothing to do with the laughing. Nor does it translate into a B-Team level blitz.

If you concede they're not a challenge, DP, and you concede that he probably could have crushed them outright with the Force... how can you logically infer that he was going "all out"?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is Ventress a challenge for Count Dooku? No. Is Ventress competition for Count Dooku? No. Did Ventress ever land even 1 hit on Dooku? No. Did Ventress ever have a chance of defeating or even stalemating Dooku 1 vs 1? No.

So does all of that mean Count Dooku speed blitzes Ventress? Well we've clearly seen the answer to that is No.

Because the gap between the brothers and Sidious is more profound than the one between Ventress and Dooku?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've admitted if he just went all out with Tk/FL from the beginning, then it's very possible the fight would have ended a heck of a lot sooner, probably without Sidious even pulling out a Saber.

But that's also true of his fight with Yoda given he actually KO'd Yoda at the beginning.

Yup.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's also true for pretty much every Jedi/Sith who ever faces Grievous.

It's also probably true for that one on one Dooku and Ventress had.

So that's all more down to CIS than anything else. Him being cocky with his Force powers at the beginning of a fight has little to no reflection on the Lightsaber battle that follows.

Indeed. The difference is that the power disparity is actually addressed in the duel and by Filoni. We don't see Sidious conveniently forget to use the Force against the brothers. We see him use it, pin them helplessly, and let them go. He's courting battle, unlike the examples of PIS you cite.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he didn't get into an extended Force battle for chuckles, so not sure why he'd get into an extended Saber battle for chuckles. He clearly showed them he can easily Overpower them both combined with The Force. So why didn't he clearly show that during the Saber fight?

You'd have a much better argument if he did.

...Because the whole point was that he could have killed them quickly and effortlessly. That's why he let them go.

Your argument is that Sidious wanted them dead, could have done it with the Force but didn't for some mysterious reason, and then fought for his life in a lightsaber duel against two challenging opponents. Then you go back and concede that they're not challenges and he could have killed them without touching his lightsaber, but didn't because shut up.

It's an errant argument that contradicts itself on a number of levels. Mine is much more straightforward: if he wanted them dead quickly, he'd have killed them quickly. The fact that he didn't kill them quickly indicates that he was courting battle and wanting to have some fun before the inevitable.

And behold: no citations of PIS, no contradictions, no ass-pulls. Simple, straightforward, and supported by the source material.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And again Filoni's flat out said Opress simply put up a better fight than the Jedi Council. So I don't see why we're still going around in circles here, when Filoni has flat out answered the very point we're talking about long long ago.

I mean how often are we fortunate enough to have the Creator/Director address the very point of debate. And yet people still want to argue it 😬

I can only imagine if Filoni said commented on the Fisto/Grievous fight with something like "Fisto performed better against him than Kenobi".. I can only imagine how you and Sidious66 would have declared it as canon fact that Fisto > Kenobi a long time ago had he said anything even remotely like that.

Cool story. I know you really want to wank Obi-Wan. That's fine. But this whole "LOL HE'S NUMBER FOUR!!!!1!" has never been supported. He's no Yoda, he's no Mace, and he's no prodigy like Anakin. He's just an extremely skilled warrior, like the rest of the Jedi Council.

The gap between Obi-Wan and the big boys is just that big. Sorry. 😬

Originally posted by Arhael
No amount of walls of text with speculations and interpretations will turn assumptions into facts. This thread is nothing but a fail.

This from the guy who declares Vaapad non-canon and then turns around and cites Ganner Rhysode's last stand.

Between that and your persistent argument that "IT'S NOT UNUSUAL AT ALL FOR PEOPLE FIGHTING DESPERATELY FOR THEIR LIVES TO SMILE, LAUGH, AND OTHERWISE EXPRESS LEISURE," I'd say your perspective is... skewed at best.

But while they might not be sensible, they sure are funny, so I encourage you to continue at your earliest convenience. 👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This from the guy who declares Vaapad non-canon and then turns around and cites Ganner Rhysode's last stand.

Between that and your persistent argument that "IT'S NOT UNUSUAL AT ALL FOR PEOPLE FIGHTING DESPERATELY FOR THEIR LIVES TO SMILE, LAUGH, AND OTHERWISE EXPRESS LEISURE," I'd say your perspective is... skewed at best.

But while they might not be sensible, they sure are funny, so I encourage you to continue at your earliest convenience. 👆

Irony is that you criticize my logic without even realizing how stupid is your claim that Sidious wasn't fighting for his life. Of course he was! A tiny mistake could result in him getting bisected by either brother, the threat was constant and there was a chance of him dying at any point during fight.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I know you really want to wank Obi-Wan.

LOL Since when?

Originally posted by Arhael
Who cares who it is coming from?

Because what is and what isn't canon doesn't matter when it suits your argument? 😂

Originally posted by Arhael
Doesn't change the fact that all you do here is posting walls of speculations and assumptions that account to nothing. Sidious laughs and grins during fight with Yoda despite the fact that he tried to run away first. It is within Sidious' insane personality to be a clown, when there is a threat to his life.

We see Sidious treat Yoda seriously plenty of times, that's how we know he's a legitimate threat. No such luck for the brothers.

Originally posted by Arhael
Irony is that you criticize my logic without even realizing how stupid is your claim that Sidious wasn't fighting for his life. Of course he was! A tiny mistake could result in him getting bisected by either brother, the threat was constant and there was a chance of him dying at any point during fight.

Irony is that one could apply this logic to Sheev and a flight of goddamn stairs. One tiny mistake could result in a broken neck. facepalm

Lol @ Sidious laughing = toying xD

@tempest, just deal with it already, Savage is much better than those fools Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, of course he can tag your precious Sheev.

Lol your posts Temp. That's exactly why you are my favorite poster.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's exactly why you are my favorite poster.

No, because you both are Sidious fanboys.

Any notion that Sids wasn't taking Yoda seriously is pretty hilarious and stupid all wrapped into one. He clearly took Yoda seriously, in fact, he tried to run from him he took him so serious.

Originally posted by Marco1907
@tempest, just deal with it already, Savage is much better than those fools Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, of course he can tag your precious Sheev.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Lol, is that why he got killed without Sidious even looking at him?

LOL At least he blocked some strikes first.

Filoni flat out said Opress put up a better fight than those Jedi Council stooges. The point has clearly been addressed by the Supervising Director.

So move on, deal with it and stop grasping at straws.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because what is and what isn't canon doesn't matter when it suits your argument? 😂

We see Sidious treat Yoda seriously plenty of times, that's how we know he's a legitimate threat. No such luck for the brothers.

We see Sidious not treating Yoda seriously plenty of times, that's how we know it is no different for the brothers.

^
That was my counter argument to make things even.

Now this:

Maul being able to fight two opponents one of which is Sidious' near equal is an actual feat. It's not a speculation of vague quotes, it's a legitimate feat, which non of your assumptions and speculations will get read off. It is a proof enough that "never wavering from his position of superiority" would require Sidious to fight best of his ability. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Arhael
In the reply where I said that I gave other reasons apart from that, so doesn't really matter.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Arhael
We see Sidious not treating Yoda seriously plenty of times, that's how we know it is no different for the brothers.

^
That was my counter argument to make things even.

Except... it's not even, since Sidious actually showed signs of struggle, strain, and fear when he fought Yoda.

Originally posted by Arhael
Now this:

Maul being able to fight two opponents one of which is Sidious' near equal is an actual feat. It's not a speculation of vague quotes, it's a legitimate feat, which non of your assumptions and speculations will get read off. It is a proof enough that "never wavering from his position of superiority" would require Sidious to fight best of his ability. Deal with it.

Nice ABC argument, Arhael! Maul blocked a strike from Mace Windu, so he's in Palpatine's league now? Your arguments and insinuations are irretrievably moronic, though they do make for a fine comedy routine. Encore, encore!

To sum it up: from start to finish, Sidious is smiling and laughing his ass off, having the time of his life. This is not the behavior of someone desperately fighting for their lives. And Filoni's already confirmed that the brothers can't even compete with him, meaning it wouldn't warrant Sidious's best efforts anyway.

Palpatine's better by miles and miles and miles and he wasn't fighting his hardest.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Except... it's not even, since Sidious [b]actually showed signs of struggle, strain, and fear when he fought Yoda. [/B]

Yeah except no one's claiming the Brothers = Yoda.

Stop ignoring the point that Sidious laughed his ass off against Yoda, by diverting to another topic of Yoda being a far more powerful opponent than the Brothers. In fact Yoda being such a struggle for Sidious is actually clear proof that Sidious does laugh while NOT fooling around.

So answer the question, does Sidious's laughter while being in a Saber lock with Yoda mean he was toying with Yoda whilst in the middle of a Saber fight with him?

Don't divert the topic to who he struggled more against, because we know you're a smart debator like that. Answer the question at hand.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nice ABC argument, Arhael! Maul blocked a strike from Mace Windu, so he's in Palpatine's league now? Your arguments and insinuations are irretrievably moronic, though they do make for a fine comedy routine. Encore, encore!

Oh come on Tempest, I know you're not actually naive enough to think that whole fight consisted of 1 strike and 1 block. All 3 of those combatants were in different positions in all 3 scenes of the fight we saw. That fight was carrying on while Dooku was subduing Kenobi and killing another Jedi.

So yeah if Mace (Sidious's near equal in Sabers) could Blitz Maul, he certainly would have. Mace certainly isn't one to toy, or to hold back against a Sith Lord.

And I like how you keep trying to exaggerate our arguments in an attempt to make us seem stupid. Taking our argument from "Sidious doesn't blitz Maul/Opress," to "Maul is in Palpatine's league!"
Like I said you're a smart debator like that. But your fandom is blinding your logic in this scenario.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Filoni's already confirmed that the brothers can't even compete with him, meaning it wouldn't warrant Sidious's best efforts anyway.

I do find it amusing how you pick and choose Filoni's comments as you see fit.

If you want to go by Filoni's comments, then this debate is over, as he's answered it a long time ago. Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than the Jedi Council. End of.

Once you accept that confirmed fact, then and then only can you rave about how superior Sidious is to Maul + Opress, and I doubt anyone's going to argue it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Concession accepted.

Except... it's not even, since Sidious actually showed signs of struggle, strain, and fear when he fought Yoda.

Another moment of strain on his face is during lightning contest, he happened to be grinning bigger part of it, the rest of it was expression of pain rather than fear. Maul and Sidious did not have lightning contest, so irrelevant.

With Yoda the only times we see fear on his face is when he tried to run away before the fight even started and when before he dodged the platform. Also, Sidious showed no fear whatsoever during fight with Windu until he got disarmed. Not expressing fear during fight with brothers doesn't tell anything and fear does not always have facial expression anyway

You are really grasping at straws here. Regardless, judging performance by facial expressions is as idiotic as it gets.

Nice ABC argument, Arhael! Maul blocked a strike from Mace Windu, so he's in Palpatine's league now? Your arguments and insinuations are irretrievably moronic, though they do make for a fine comedy routine. Encore, encore!

ABC logic works greatly, when we need to establish, if characters combat prowess is relatively close or not.

Good example is AotC. Dooku beat both Anakin and Kenobi. Because Yoda made Dooku run away, it is obvious that he would beat Anakin and Kenobi with even more ease.

If Sidious as you say "miles and miles" better than Maul, so would be Windu. Maul being able to engage Windu (who beat Sidious) and Secura at the same time is proof enough that Sidious wasn't heaving easy time and needed to work hard in order to constantly dominate Maul. ABC logic works perfectly here.