Originally posted by riv6672
Whats the context behind tallying votes?Both are just ways in which WBH is being made to not win a fight he can obviously win.
To get an overview what the majority thinks, what else?
We can also skip Carvers voice, it is not valid in Hulk threads. So that leaves only you, and we can assume that you are wrong. Really simple logic.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
To get an overview what the majority thinks, what else?We can also skip Carvers voice, it is not valid in Hulk threads. So that leaves only you, and we can assume that you are wrong. Really simple logic.
You might want to rethink your method of debate. As it is WB Hulk beats the snot out of him. With Prime, PIS or not, there were points of weakness that can be brought up to lower his overall stock. WB Hulk has no poor showings.
Originally posted by Stoic
Superboy was killed by Superboy Prime, but before he was put down, he gave Prime decent resistance. He would have never been able to resist WB Hulk's overwhelming power.
This is skimming over the heart of the two sides. WBH has less low showings. But I - and I probably speak for others - think that SBP's highest showings trump WBH's quite handily.
So you're not wrong. But your argument doesn't necessarily settle this.
Also, to your specific point, considering what it took to stop Prime AFTER that fight with Superboy, I don't really see it as being a knock on his record.
Originally posted by Digi
This is skimming over the heart of the two sides. WBH has less low showings. But I - and I probably speak for others - think that SBP's highest showings trump WBH's quite handily.So you're not wrong. But your argument doesn't necessarily settle this.
Also, to your specific point, considering what it took to stop Prime AFTER that fight with Superboy, I don't really see it as being a knock on his record.
The only thing that could be said to have even put damage on WB Hulk was a blade enchanted by Odin himself, and it did little to slow him down. I disagree, WB Hulk was more impressive. Superboy's resistance lessens Prime's stock considerably. It's unfortunate but true. The Hulk did everything except flex and turn an confirmed High Herald to dust (Arm'Cheddon). Prime punched Black Adam away as if he were nothing, now considering how powerful Arm'Cheddon was, and how easily he was turned to dust by indirect exposure to blows that were dished out by Betty and Bruce, I would say that a punch form WB hulk would have easily turned Adam into dust as well.
There is power, and then there is the power that was being given off by WB Hulk. towards the end of the WW Hulk arc when Bruce became excited, and took footsteps that alone threatened to sink the Eastern Seaboard, I would say that he was on Primes level of power. During the Heart of the monster arc, when he was glowing white hot, I would say that he surpassed prime's power level by several orders of magnitude. The idea that Superboy was even able to faze Prime reduced his stock. it happened, it shouldn't have, but it did. Blows like the ones that Superboy used on Prime, would have been completely ignored by this version of the Hulk.
This is not me being corrupted by favoritism, but in order to properly judge anything, one has to pick apart all of the poor showings if any, and raise them to the light. WB Hulk had none SB Prime has a couple.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Superior speed overwhelmed superior force in many situations.
Unfortunately, Prime may not have the necessary power to hurt WB hulk, and he would eventually have to come to blows with him, meaning; There would come a time when they stood toe to toe. hulk was at a point that he didn't give a phuck anymore, and was tapping into the Gamma Force like never before. He was growing exponentially more powerful by the second, and although he surely had a limit, one was never shown throughout that particular arc. Superboy Prime on the other hand.... 😬
Originally posted by Stoic
The only thing that could be said to have even put damage on WB Hulk was a blade enchanted by Odin himself, and it did little to slow him down. I disagree, WB Hulk was more impressive. Superboy's resistance lessens Prime's stock considerably. It's unfortunate but true. The Hulk did everything except flex and turn an confirmed High Herald to dust (Arm'Cheddon). Prime punched Black Adam away as if he were nothing, now considering how powerful Arm'Cheddon was, and how easily he was turned to dust by indirect exposure to blows that were dished out by Betty and Bruce, I would say that a punch form WB hulk would have easily turned Adam into dust as well.There is power, and then there is the power that was being given off by WB Hulk. towards the end of the WW Hulk arc when Bruce became excited, and took footsteps that alone threatened to sink the Eastern Seaboard, I would say that he was on Primes level of power. During the Heart of the monster arc, when he was glowing white hot, I would say that he surpassed prime's power level by several orders of magnitude. The idea that Superboy was even able to faze Prime reduced his stock. it happened, it shouldn't have, but it did. Blows like the ones that Superboy used on Prime, would have been completely ignored by this version of the Hulk.
This is not me being corrupted by favoritism, but in order to properly judge anything, one has to pick apart all of the poor showings if any, and raise them to the light. WB Hulk had none SB Prime has a couple.
Unfortunately, Prime may not have the necessary power to hurt WB hulk, and he would eventually have to come to blows with him, meaning; There would come a time when they stood toe to toe. hulk was at a point that he didn't give a phuck anymore, and was tapping into the Gamma Force like never before. He was growing exponentially more powerful by the second, and although he surely had a limit, one was never shown throughout that particular arc. Superboy Prime on the other hand.... 😬
Good. This is the first coherent argument for Hulk in the entire thread, and a good argument in general.
The remaining flaw, as I see it, is that you're still focusing on a single feat of Prime's. And lifting up the Black Adam feat as the good feat. It certainly was really, really good. BA is a beast. And it was only months after the WW3 arc, where Adam was tanking and wrecking numerous high heralds. No-selling an attack and wrecking BA is huge. But SBP has WAY better feats than that. There's the Monarch fight, the speedblitz one-shot of a planet, the casual planet moving in Infinite Crisis, the Source Wall/Mxy stuff, Ion, stuff that I'm likely forgetting, etc. etc.
The speed advantage is also not so easily tossed aside. Yes, they'd likely have to come to blows. But the speed edge is an edge. You're not going to convince many people that Prime absolutely wouldn't be able to harm Hulk. If you could, everyone would agree with you. But at that point, to the unconvinced, flight and reaction speed are huge, as are the ranged attacks that he can utilize as part of his advantages.
All that said, there's an argument to be made for Hulk that's entirely credible. It's quite possibly the correct assessment of the fight. I don't personally think so, but it's there to be made.
Originally posted by Digi
Good. This is the first coherent argument for Hulk in the entire thread, and a good argument in general.The remaining flaw, as I see it, is that you're still focusing on a single feat of Prime's. And lifting up the Black Adam feat as the good feat. It certainly was really, really good. BA is a beast. And it was only months after the WW3 arc, where Adam was tanking and wrecking numerous high heralds. No-selling an attack and wrecking BA is huge. But SBP has WAY better feats than that. There's the Monarch fight, the speedblitz one-shot of a planet, the casual planet moving in Infinite Crisis, the Source Wall/Mxy stuff, Ion, stuff that I'm likely forgetting, etc. etc.
The speed advantage is also not so easily tossed aside. Yes, they'd likely have to come to blows. But the speed edge is an edge. You're not going to convince many people that Prime absolutely wouldn't be able to harm Hulk. If you could, everyone would agree with you. But at that point, to the unconvinced, flight and reaction speed are huge, as are the ranged attacks that he can utilize as part of his advantages.
All that said, there's an argument to be made for Hulk that's entirely credible. It's quite possibly the correct assessment of the fight. I don't personally think so, but it's there to be made.
WWiii, was horrible, I would even place it lower in terms of cheese than the WW Hulk arc, and that was pretty bad. Every hero that BA put the boot to acted like rookies. They didn't use any of their powers on him, and instead seemingly ran face first into his fists. It was deplorable to say the least, and the only thing that stopped me from destroying the entire run, was because my sons enjoyed it.
Monarch came later, wasn't that an elder Prime, and not Superboy Prime? I'm asking because that was at a time that I lost touch with comics. Speed would be a much larger factor if SB Prime could go for the quick BFR, because this is how I see him wining every time. I don't however see him being able to over power a Hulk that can consciously amplify his every physical stat exponentially. Some claim to have seen WB Hulk die during HOTM, I never saw this occur.
If we took what was written on panel literally, Bruce, and Betty did more damage to the Dark Dimension, than just turn the planet they fought on, and a it's Moon to dust. That however can be seen in a different light depending on who is being asked.
The ruling in the Forum, is that WB Hulk is the one from the HOTM story arc, but real talk, the Green Scar was the World Breaker according to canon, and in a far calmer state, he took a hit to his internal organs from a being capable of hitting with the force of just over 113 times the force that Hercules could generate with his most potent strike.
SB Prime was great, but at this level, I am forced to look at both characters low points in order to gauge who is greater, because neither had any glaring weaknesses.
I have to address the speed disparity, because there is certainly one there, and it's the elephant in the room. Prime would have to come to blows with this version of the Hulk. I'm not sure if his blows would be able to hurt the Hulk, and what adds further doubt is the doubling, and doubling, and doubling... etc... of this Hulk's power. How high could Prime go? Collateral damage will not win any debates, but indirectly destroying a planet from the power of a punch makes up a few yards.
Originally posted by Stoic
WWiii, was horrible, I would even place it lower in terms of cheese than the WW Hulk arc, and that was pretty bad. Every hero that BA put the boot to acted like rookies. They didn't use any of their powers on him, and instead seemingly ran face first into his fists. It was deplorable to say the least, and the only thing that stopped me from destroying the entire run, was because my sons enjoyed it.Monarch came later, wasn't that an elder Prime, and not Superboy Prime? I'm asking because that was at a time that I lost touch with comics. Speed would be a much larger factor if SB Prime could go for the quick BFR, because this is how I see him wining every time. I don't however see him being able to over power a Hulk that can consciously amplify his every physical stat exponentially. Some claim to have seen WB Hulk die during HOTM, I never saw this occur.
If we took what was written on panel literally, Bruce, and Betty did more damage to the Dark Dimension, than just turn the planet they fought on, and a it's Moon to dust. That however can be seen in a different light depending on who is being asked.
The ruling in the Forum, is that WB Hulk is the one from the HOTM story arc, but real talk, the Green Scar was the World Breaker according to canon, and in a far calmer state, he took a hit to his internal organs from a being capable of hitting with the force of just over 113 times the force that Hercules could generate with his most potent strike.
SB Prime was great, but at this level, I am forced to look at both characters low points in order to gauge who is greater, because neither had any glaring weaknesses.
I have to address the speed disparity, because there is certainly one there, and it's the elephant in the room. Prime would have to come to blows with this version of the Hulk. I'm not sure if his blows would be able to hurt the Hulk, and what adds further doubt is the doubling, and doubling, and doubling... etc... of this Hulk's power. How high could Prime go? Collateral damage will not win any debates, but indirectly destroying a planet from the power of a punch makes up a few yards.
I'm trying to remember...I don't think it was an elder Prime. I think he had just absorbed more energy and "looked" older. Maybe I'm wrong. It was a weird explanation. I also think he later changed back to his younger look for similar reasons.
That incarnation of him also, if I'm not mistaken, is the one that survived the Monarch-explosion that destroyed a universe. I wasn't holding it back to play as a trump card, I just forgot about it until now.
Monarch is another ABC argument waiting to happen, while we're talking about him. Cheese or not, Black Adam was near his pre-FP peak when Prime no-sold him. But Monarch was even another level of beast. If we award Prime the win or even stalemate with Monarch, we're giving him nigh-effortless wins over dozens of heralds, and likely a few that were Trans.-level.
In any case, I've been counting the older-looking one in this, since it's the same character. If we split them into two versions, it obviously hurts his feat count.
Anyway, like I said, your opinion is an entirely valid one, and more thoroughly articulated than many. I remain unconvinced, but you've forced me to admit that it's a much closer fight than I initially thought. I don't think it's clear, and won't really disagree strongly with those repping Hulk.