Originally posted by Galan007
Manga takes precedence, always. If it wasn't said or done in the manga, then it becomes non-canon anime filler. Simple. Only an idiot would seriously argue otherwise... Not surprised, though, as idiocy "seems to be your strong suite." 😂
Agreed.
Or I would be, if we weren't arguing about an anime/movie only character here. 👆
Originally posted by yungz22
woah when did goku say kid buu was stonger than buuhan that makes zero sense because buuhan was man handle both goku and vegeta.kid buu may have been more wild and ruthless than buuhan but stronger hell no.
I can link the scene if you want.
Goku says, SPECIFICALLY, "What?! He's getting stronger instead of weaker!", as he was turning from Super Buu into Kid Buu.
Yeah, Kid Buu wasn't more powerful than Buuhan. Not by a long shot. More dangerous, perhaps? Sure... He mercilessly destroyed everything in his path for the lulz w/o thinking twice, whereas his other, more intelligible, incarnations wanted a good fight beyond anything else--the genocide of ALL wasn't their #1 priority. Kid Buu also seemed better(or at least faster) with regen and technique-duping than his other incarnations. Where sheer power is concerned, however...
Buuhan>>Buutenks>Mystic Gohan>>SSJ3 Gotenks~Super Buu>>FPSSJ3 Goku>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.
^^ All of that can be substantiated by the manga. 👆
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I can link the scene if you want.Goku says, SPECIFICALLY, "What?! He's getting stronger instead of weaker!", as he was turning from Super Buu into Kid Buu.
dude just think about the logic buuhan was whooping bith vegeta and goku's ass.
but goku could fight kid buu on his own
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I can link the scene if you want.Goku says, SPECIFICALLY, "What?! He's getting stronger instead of weaker!", as he was turning from Super Buu into Kid Buu.
He says that AFTER Buu has already turned back into Super Buu so if anything you should be arguing that Kid Buu>Super Buu. He's not but at least your stance would make a little bit more sense
Originally posted by yungz22
dude just think about the logic buuhan was whooping bith vegeta and goku's ass.but goku could fight kid buu on his own
Yeah, and they were both SSJ2. Goku fought Kid Buu as a SSJ3, and still was unable to beat him. Not to mention that Vegeta and Goku both held their ground(in the anime only).
Originally posted by juggerman
He says that AFTER Buu has already turned back into Super Buu so if anything you should be arguing that Kid Buu>Super Buu. He's not but at least your stance would make a little bit more sense
Yeah, my bad, it's been a minute since I saw the scene. Still though, he did confirm that Kid Buu > Super Buu. That at least puts Goku still above Gotenks, and around Gohan's level.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yeah, my bad, it's been a minute since I saw the scene. Still though, he did confirm that Kid Buu > Super Buu. That at least puts Goku still above Gotenks, and around Gohan's level.
Actually no. It confirms that Buff Buu>Super Buu because when they said that he was changing into his muscular counterpart:
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3157-13/dragon-ball/chapter-508.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-1/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html
Then notice how Vegeta says "he's still changing"
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-1/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html
So he was not necessarily growing stronger at this point. In fact he was likely growing weaker and here's why:
They can clearly sense Kid Buu's power but Vegeta thinks they can "handle that"
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-1/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html
As opposed to how they felt against Super Buu:
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3157-12/dragon-ball/chapter-508.html
They feel they need to hide as opposed to fighting Super Buu
There are several other factors that point to Kid Buu being weaker like the fact that Goku like Goku admitting it himself:
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3156-12/dragon-ball/chapter-507.html
"He's still far too strong for us". Not just too strong but FAR too strong. And he has no reason to fib at this point since Vegeta knows about the SSJ3 form. Yet Goku was able to fight evenly with Kid Buu. That shows Super Buu>>>>SSJ3 Goku>=Kid Buu
Originally posted by juggerman
Actually no. It confirms that Buff Buu>Super Buu because when they said that he was changing into his muscular counterpart:http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3157-13/dragon-ball/chapter-508.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-1/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html
Then notice how Vegeta says "he's still changing"
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-1/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html
So he was not necessarily growing stronger at this point. In fact he was likely growing weaker and here's why:
They can clearly sense Kid Buu's power but Vegeta thinks they can "handle that"
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-1/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html
As opposed to how they felt against Super Buu:
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3157-12/dragon-ball/chapter-508.html
They feel they need to hide as opposed to fighting Super Buu
There are several other factors that point to Kid Buu being weaker like the fact that Goku like Goku admitting it himself:
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3156-12/dragon-ball/chapter-507.html
"He's still far too strong for us". Not just too strong but FAR too strong. And he has no reason to fib at this point since Vegeta knows about the SSJ3 form. Yet Goku was able to fight evenly with Kid Buu. That shows Super Buu>>>>SSJ3 Goku>=Kid Buu
1. I don't know why you're still arguing manga cannon here, when I clearly said that we are using anime, considering Janemba is a movie character. Refer to my previous post. "Basically, Manga cannon, Buu has a shot of winning, but only due to absorption. This is because in the manga, Goku said he was weaker than Super Buu, and it wasn't defined in which form.", and again, even in the manga, we saw Goku confident that he could at least distract BuuTENKS in the manga, for Gohan to find the potara.
2. Secondly, don't even try saying, "oh, anime ain't cannon.", because you're basing your entire argument off of buff Buu, a form of Kid Buu that was only introduced in the anime. In the manga, as you showed, he just randomly became buff, and then became Kid Buu. Vegeta and Goku never indicated or even suggested any kind of decrease from Buff to Kid Buu.
3. Thirdly, you could clearly see that even Vegeta was unconfident when saying he thought they could handle Kid Buu, as he had a nervous sweat drop running down his face. Very noticeably, I might add.
As you can see, Goku is also very nervous, and clearly less confident than Vegeta.
4. Also, Vegeta has been proven wrong in the past when judging a book by its cover. In fact, it's very likely that he was simply saying they would win, judging Kid Buu by his stature. He did the same thing when fighting Android 18, and when he fought PF Cell, and got pwned. Goku is usually right about these things though, and he was clearly nervous just like Vegeta.
5. Notice that in the scan you just provided, Goku yelled for "Everyone", to hide, and not just Vegeta. He was clearly talking about the still unconscious children and Piccolo he and Vegeta were holding, which is why in the next panel, you see them placing the four on the ground near trees before flying back to Buu. Why would they fly back to him if THEY themselves were trying to hide from him? lol.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. I don't know why you're still arguing manga cannon here, when I clearly said that we are using anime, considering Janemba is a movie character. Refer to my previous post. "Basically, Manga cannon, Buu has a shot of winning, but only due to absorption. This is because in the manga, Goku said he was weaker than Super Buu, and it wasn't defined in which form.", and again, even in the manga, we saw Goku confident that he could at least distract BuuTENKS in the manga, for Gohan to find the potara.2. Secondly, don't even try saying, "oh, anime ain't cannon.", because you're basing your entire argument off of buff Buu, a form of Kid Buu that was only introduced in the anime. In the manga, as you showed, he just randomly became buff, and then became Kid Buu. Vegeta and Goku never indicated or even suggested any kind of decrease from Buff to Kid Buu.
3. Thirdly, you could clearly see that even Vegeta was unconfident when saying he thought they could handle Kid Buu, as he had a nervous sweat drop running down his face. Very noticeably, I might add.
As you can see, Goku is also very nervous, and clearly less confident than Vegeta.
4. Also, Vegeta has been proven wrong in the past when judging a book by its cover. In fact, it's very likely that he was simply saying they would win, judging Kid Buu by his stature. He did the same thing when fighting Android 18, and when he fought PF Cell, and got pwned. Goku is usually right about these things though, and he was clearly nervous just like Vegeta.
5. Notice that in the scan you just provided, Goku yelled for "Everyone", to hide, and not just Vegeta. He was clearly talking about the still unconscious children and Piccolo he and Vegeta were holding, which is why in the next panel, you see them placing the four on the ground near trees before flying back to Buu. Why would they fly back to him if THEY themselves were trying to hide from him? lol.
are you really trying to argue that buuhan was weaker than kid buu?
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. I don't know why you're still arguing manga cannon here, when I clearly said that we are using anime, considering Janemba is a movie character. Refer to my previous post. "Basically, Manga cannon, Buu has a shot of winning, but only due to absorption. This is because in the manga, Goku said he was weaker than Super Buu, and it wasn't defined in which form.", and again, even in the manga, we saw Goku confident that he could at least distract BuuTENKS in the manga, for Gohan to find the potara.2. Secondly, don't even try saying, "oh, anime ain't cannon.", because you're basing your entire argument off of buff Buu, a form of Kid Buu that was only introduced in the anime. In the manga, as you showed, he just randomly became buff, and then became Kid Buu. Vegeta and Goku never indicated or even suggested any kind of decrease from Buff to Kid Buu.
3. Thirdly, you could clearly see that even Vegeta was unconfident when saying he thought they could handle Kid Buu, as he had a nervous sweat drop running down his face. Very noticeably, I might add.
As you can see, Goku is also very nervous, and clearly less confident than Vegeta.
4. Also, Vegeta has been proven wrong in the past when judging a book by its cover. In fact, it's very likely that he was simply saying they would win, judging Kid Buu by his stature. He did the same thing when fighting Android 18, and when he fought PF Cell, and got pwned. Goku is usually right about these things though, and he was clearly nervous just like Vegeta.
5. Notice that in the scan you just provided, Goku yelled for "Everyone", to hide, and not just Vegeta. He was clearly talking about the still unconscious children and Piccolo he and Vegeta were holding, which is why in the next panel, you see them placing the four on the ground near trees before flying back to Buu. Why would they fly back to him if THEY themselves were trying to hide from him? lol.
And here we..... GO!
1. When makes you decide what we are using here? Are you the OP? Nope. So yeah stop it. Also are you seriously trying to argue that Goku being able to distract Buu means anything at all?
2. Do you need me to post the page again showing Buff Buu? I never said Buff Buu fought or was shown at length but it was a form we clearly see in the manga. His power increasing in that form is akin to Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks. His power went thru the roof so of course they commented on it but he didn't mantain the form or the power. It's quite simple really
3. Yet had Buu's power been as high as it was in his "Buff" state the comment wouldn't have been made at all.
4. I never said Vegeta was right. Hell just a couple of chapters later he was proven dead wrong. That doesn't take away what I said tho. His power increased by a lot and Goku and Vegeta noticed. The same Goku and Vegeta that knew damn well that Super Buu was too powerful for them. So if a guy "far too stong" for them was growing even stronger why the hell would Vegeta think they could take him?
Size means nothing and Vegeta knows it. Unless you think he's forgotten the ass whipping puny Frieza layed on him or the fact that Gohan as a pint sized kid made him look like a noob when he assended to SSJ2 against Cell or when the tiny Cell Jrs rocked his socks off. Come on man. You make Vegeta sound like a true moron. He even states several times in the Buu Saga that he knows he's out of his league. So why the sudden boost of confidence? It's obviously due to Kid Buu no mantaining the power that they sensed previously.
5. Are you saying Goku was telling the unconcious people to hide let they could comply? And I like how you ignore the fact that they flew over to see the changes happening but still stayed far away enough not to be noticed. They didn't actually "reveal" themselves until their lives were in jeopardy
^ I can live with that. 👆
My main point is simply that, from a 'power at their disposal' standpoint, Kid Buu was one of the character's weaker variations--him being referred to as the "most dangerous" version =/= him being the "most powerful" version(I explained the difference above.) Remember, a less-than-full-power SSJ3 Goku was able to give Kid Buu a good fight. A fully-powered SSJ3 Goku could have destroyed him "in an instant." Conversely, Goku stated that Super Buu was still "FAR too strong" for he and Vegeta to even try and fight. This tells us that FPSSJ3 Goku would have been less than nothing in comparison to Super Buu.
ie. Super Buu>>>>Kid Buu.
Granted, Kid Buu stomped Fat/good Buu, but that's not really saying much. When Fat Buu separated into his good and evil aspects, "most of" his power went to the evil aspect:
http://i.imgur.com/r1AuWLW.gif
So theoretically, SSJ2 Vegeta could have given Fat/good Buu a good fight... Possibly even beat him. /shrug
Originally posted by juggerman
And here we..... GO!1. When makes you decide what we are using here? Are you the OP? Nope. So yeah stop it. Also are you seriously trying to argue that Goku being able to distract Buu means anything at all?
2. Do you need me to post the page again showing Buff Buu? I never said Buff Buu fought or was shown at length but it was a form we clearly see in the manga. His power increasing in that form is akin to Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks. His power went thru the roof so of course they commented on it but he didn't mantain the form or the power. It's quite simple really
3. Yet had Buu's power been as high as it was in his "Buff" state the comment wouldn't have been made at all.
4. I never said Vegeta was right. Hell just a couple of chapters later he was proven dead wrong. That doesn't take away what I said tho. His power increased by a lot and Goku and Vegeta noticed. The same Goku and Vegeta that knew damn well that Super Buu was too powerful for them. So if a guy "far too stong" for them was growing even stronger why the hell would Vegeta think they could take him?
Size means nothing and Vegeta knows it. Unless you think he's forgotten the ass whipping puny Frieza layed on him or the fact that Gohan as a pint sized kid made him look like a noob when he assended to SSJ2 against Cell or when the tiny Cell Jrs rocked his socks off. Come on man. You make Vegeta sound like a true moron. He even states several times in the Buu Saga that he knows he's out of his league. So why the sudden boost of confidence? It's obviously due to Kid Buu no mantaining the power that they sensed previously.
5. Are you saying Goku was telling the unconcious people to hide let they could comply? And I like how you ignore the fact that they flew over to see the changes happening but still stayed far away enough not to be noticed. They didn't actually "reveal" themselves until their lives were in jeopardy
1. OP didn't specify, meaning we take the one that makes most sense in the context. Janemba is anime/movie only characters, meaning we should use the same thing to decipher his and Buu's power. If someone made a thread titled, "Vegeta vs. Cell", you wouldn't assume they were taking Saiyan saga Vegeta, unless they specified, would you?
2. Where was "Buff" Buu shown to be a form at all OUTSIDE the anime? Never. All of what you just said is assumption, and baseless at that. Again, show me ONE scan where they said Kid Buu was weaker than Buff Buu. You can't, because they didn't. And inference from Vegeta's cocky, arrogant, but still unsure statement, can be disproven by the fact that he and Goku were both incredibly nervous still even while Vegeta said that.
3. How do you know? Again, Vegeta's never been that good at reading ki's OR facing his own weakness to begin with. Remember how he commented how weak Cell looked in perfect form compared to his second form? That was right before he got curb-stomped like a child while Cell was just warming up. Not to mention that he even SAID that he thought he and Goku could take Kid Buu, but was, as you said, disproven mere pages later. If you acknowledge that his statement was false, then why are you using it in the first place? lol
4. As I just said, Vegeta was clearly nervous when saying that, and has been shown to make untrue statements while under pressure MANY times in the past. Are you forgetting that he said practically the same thing to Frieza?
What? None of that is true at all. In fact, the scan SPECIFICALLY shows Vegeta stating that the reason they could "take" Kid Buu, was because he was a "midget". He was clearly only countering Goku's statement of his power rising, by giving an observation of his small size. He's made the same mistake dozens of times before, it's pretty obvious that he was doing the same here. He wasn't able to come to terms with his inferiority until he watched Goku fight Kid Buu, and let go of his pride to admit Goku was better. Again, you're basing your entire argument off of a statement you JUST admitted was false. Not to mention the fact that you're reading "He's a midget! I think we can handle that!", as, "He's weaker than before! We can handle that!", when in fact it is clearly an observation of his stature, which should more accurately be read as, "He's smaller now! That should mean he's weaker now!".
5. Most likely. In fact, in the heat of the moment, Goku didn't even look or pay any mind to the unconscious people he and Vegeta were holding. He likely was yelling to them, and anyone that could have been around Buu at the time, since he didn't know, as he simply realized that they all grew back to normal size. It's very likely that he didn't even have time to notice that they were still unconscious until they actually started flying.
Also, Vegeta and Goku were flying in the clear, open sky, pretty close to Kid Buu. The fact that he didn't notice them was just to stress how little he cared about his surroundings. The phucker was born, yelled for a second, then shot a planet busting ki blast at the surface. He didn't notice Vegeta and Goku until they actually did something to him, which was deflect his blast. If that was Cell, he would have looked at them, and started fighting. You're forgetting that Kid Buu was the most unpredictable, and destructive villain in the series. He just didn't care.
