Janemba vs. Super Buu

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I can live with that. 👆

My main point is simply that, from a 'power at their disposal' standpoint, Kid Buu was one of the character's weaker variations--him being referred to as the "most dangerous" version =/= him being the "most powerful" version(I explained the difference above.) Remember, a less-than-full-power SSJ3 Goku was able to give Kid Buu a good fight. A fully-powered SSJ3 Goku could have destroyed him "in an instant." Conversely, Goku stated that Super Buu was still "FAR too strong" for he and Vegeta to even try and fight. This tells us that FPSSJ3 Goku would have been less than nothing in comparison to Super Buu.
ie. Super Buu>>>>Kid Buu.

Granted, Kid Buu stomped Fat/good Buu, but that's not really saying much. When Fat Buu separated into his good and evil aspects, "most of" his power went to the evil aspect:
http://i.imgur.com/r1AuWLW.gif
So theoretically, SSJ2 Vegeta could have given Fat/good Buu a good fight... Possibly even beat him. /shrug

Again, you're taking statements from different contexts. Goku only said he could destroy kid Buu at full power in an instant, in the anime. In the manga, he said he had been trying to the entire time, and wasn't just giving Vegeta a chance to fight.

Also, even in the manga, Goku was still severely underpowered at that point, from being SSJ2 for so long after fighting for two days straight. In the anime, iirc, he even got healed by Dende before Kid Buu showed up to them flaring their power. In the manga, Kid Buu showed up right after they did as soon as he reformed. He didn't go around destroying other planets, or show up in other world.

Also, speaking observationally, Piccolo stated how strong Super Buu was in both versions of cannon. He said right when Buu transformed into Super Buu, that "his power's increased, but his body's also better for fighting now", which implies that the biggest difference between the Majin Buu Babidi summoned, and Super Buu, was that Super Buu was smarter and had a better body for fighting. This makes sense, because the only difference in Fat Buu and Super Buu, was that Fat Buu was mostly good, and Super Buu was mostly evil. The were both made up of Good Buu/Mr. Buu, and evil Buu/Black Buu. This makes sense, because Gotenks in base form was still child's play for Super Buu.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. OP didn't specify, meaning we take the one that makes most sense in the context. Janemba is anime/movie only characters, meaning we should use the same thing to decipher his and Buu's power. If someone made a thread titled, "Vegeta vs. Cell", you wouldn't assume they were taking Saiyan saga Vegeta, unless they specified, would you?

1. Wow. Just wow. That's a false equivalency if I've ever seen one. The proper way to say that would be to say:

"If someone made a thread titled, "Vegeta vs. Cell", you wouldn't assume they were taking Vegeta out of the manga but using solely anime Cell."

But either way you still run into the issue of the manga being the true canon and the only way to accurately assess the power of the characters. The anime was all over the place because they had to fill more time so things were added and a lot of it didn’t make any sense. For example in the anime it was established that Fat Buu was above SSJ2 level with his manhandling of both Gohan and Majin Vegeta yet a much stronger Kid Buu was matched by SSJ2 Goku. Makes no sense. Or how about SSJ3 Goku holing his own against Buuhan? Makes no sense since it was clearly shown that SSJ3 Goku was weaker than Gotenks, who was weaker than Gohan, who was weaker than Buutenks who was much weaker that Buuhan.

In other words the manga is the true source of the character’s and their power while the anime contradicts it several times and doesn’t always give an accurate portrayal of the power gaps between these guys. You can use the anime if you wish but at the point where it differs from the manga, the manga takes precedent

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
2. Where was "Buff" Buu shown to be a form at all OUTSIDE the anime? Never. All of what you just said is assumption, and baseless at that. Again, show me ONE scan where they said Kid Buu was weaker than Buff Buu. You can't, because they didn't. And inference from Vegeta's cocky, arrogant, but still unsure statement, can be disproven by the fact that he and Goku were both incredibly nervous still even while Vegeta said that.

2. They showed "Buff" Buu right here buddy:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-1/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html

Guess you didn't actually open my links earlier huh? 😂

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
3. How do you know?

3. Cuz logic and stuff. You just refuse to admit it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Again, Vegeta's never been that good at reading ki's OR facing his own weakness to begin with. Remember how he commented how weak Cell looked in perfect form compared to his second form? That was right before he got curb-stomped like a child while Cell was just warming up. Not to mention that he even SAID that he thought he and Goku could take Kid Buu, but was, as you said, disproven mere pages later. If you acknowledge that his statement was false, then why are you using it in the first place? lol

Actually he’s pretty good at reading ki after Namek. Vegeta was cocky with Cell because Cell was HOLDING BACK HIS POWER! Once he released some of it Vegeta knew with was up shit's creek. And again Vegeta was right about Goku being able to take out Kid Buu. Goku just wasted too much time and burnt thru his power.

Here let me break it down for you ok? And I'll be using links, but since I know you don't bother looking at them all I'll decribe what they show too.

First we have an amped SSJ2 Vegeta losing badly to Fat Buu right? So much so that he needs to blow himself up in order to win. Even this isn't enough.

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3117-10/dragon-ball/chapter-468.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3117-11/dragon-ball/chapter-468.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3118-3/dragon-ball/chapter-469.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3118-9/dragon-ball/chapter-469.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3118-10/dragon-ball/chapter-469.html

Then the next time we see Vegeta we know he is well aware of his best shot at the Maj failed. Add that to the fact that he also lost his amp AND Majin Buu has gotten a shit ton stronger and you have a very somber and realistic Vegeta who knows he is about to get shit stomped:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3150-12/dragon-ball/chapter-501.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3153-4/dragon-ball/chapter-504.html

He admitted he was no match for Buu. And then after Buu is powered down A LOT Goku still says he’s too strong and Vegeta does not disagree:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3156-12/dragon-ball/chapter-507.html

So we have Vegeta openly admitting when he is out of his league several times due to Majin Buu’s strength. So why in the world would he be cocky in the face of a much stronger Buu? You’re stance makes zero sense given ALL the information we’re shown. The only way it makes sense is if Kid Buu were weaker than Super Buu and sensing this drop in power, Vegeta’s confidence grew.

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3158-3/dragon-ball/chapter-509.html

And he was not wrong, he said “I think WE can handle that”. Not “I” but “WE” meaning a group effort. He knew he couldn’t do it himself but with Goku’s SSJ3 form THEY could win. That “WE” may have also included their children so in the end he was right.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
4. As I just said, Vegeta was clearly nervous when saying that, and has been shown to make untrue statements while under pressure MANY times in the past. Are you forgetting that he said practically the same thing to Frieza?

4. Big difference with Frieza tho was that Vegeta had just undergone a massive power increase. Several in fact. The opposite is true with Buu. Vegeta lost power while Buu gained some. No reason at all to be cocky.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What? None of that is true at all. In fact, the scan SPECIFICALLY shows Vegeta stating that the reason they could "take" Kid Buu, was because he was a "midget". He was clearly only countering Goku's statement of his power rising, by giving an observation of his small size. He's made the same mistake dozens of times before, it's pretty obvious that he was doing the same here. He wasn't able to come to terms with his inferiority until he watched Goku fight Kid Buu, and let go of his pride to admit Goku was better. Again, you're basing your entire argument off of a statement you JUST admitted was false. Not to mention the fact that you're reading "He's a midget! I think we can handle that!", as, "He's weaker than before! We can handle that!", when in fact it is clearly an observation of his stature, which should more accurately be read as, "He's smaller now! That should mean he's weaker now!".

Again you have to completely ignore that fact that Vegeta admitted quite a few times that Buu was out of his league. There is no logical reason Vegeta would think Buu got a power boost and that made him less of a threat. Just think about that. You’re saying Buu got stronger and that Vegeta knew it and still thought “Hell I was stronger and he was weaker and he kicked my ass, but now that he’s grown in power and my power has lessened it should be a much closer fight! Maybe I’ll win!!!!”

You must really think he’s retarded.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
5. Most likely. In fact, in the heat of the moment, Goku didn't even look or pay any mind to the unconscious people he and Vegeta were holding. He likely was yelling to them, and anyone that could have been around Buu at the time, since he didn't know, as he simply realized that they all grew back to normal size. It's very likely that he didn't even have time to notice that they were still unconscious until they actually started flying.

Also, Vegeta and Goku were flying in the clear, open sky, pretty close to Kid Buu. The fact that he didn't notice them was just to stress how little he cared about his surroundings. The phucker was born, yelled for a second, then shot a planet busting ki blast at the surface. He didn't notice Vegeta and Goku until they actually did something to him, which was deflect his blast. If that was Cell, he would have looked at them, and started fighting. You're forgetting that Kid Buu was the most unpredictable, and destructive villain in the series. He just didn't care.

5. I’m not forgetting anything. They hid from Buu. Then, as the changes were happening they got closer to him to watch what was going on. They didn’t try to attract his attention and they didn’t try to be noticed at all. They just watched. Nothing that you said contradicts this.

Oh god please no! This is meant to be about Janemba!

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Again, you're taking statements from different contexts. Goku only said he could destroy kid Buu at full power in an instant, in the anime. In the manga, he said he had been trying to the entire time, and wasn't just giving Vegeta a chance to fight.

none none

Originally posted by Galan007

none none

Um, is that NOT what I literally JUST said? Vegeta monologues about how Goku can beat him in an instant in SSJ3, but Goku says he's been trying to the whole time.

See? Goku says it would take a MINUTE to gather enough ki to kill Kid Buu, and in the end, he was still wrong because it takes more ki to stay in SSJ3 than he can build up. Either way, Goku in the manga was UNABLE to beat Kid Buu, but in the anime, he specifically said he WAS. 👆

Are you truly THIS incapable of comprehending BASIC narrative?

Goku stated that he'd been trying to reach full power as a SSJ3, but was unable to because he required at least a minute to devote solely to powering up, and Kid Buu never gave him that much time. When Vegeta finally entered the fray, and attempted to buy Goku time, his stamina was already depleted from the lengthy battle with Kid Buu he'd just been involved in, which rendered him unable to reach full power as a SSJ3.

HAD Goku been able to fully power up, however, he could have destroyed Kid Buu "in an INSTANT." Conversely, Goku explicitly stated that Super Buu was "FAR" more powerful than himself.
ie. Super Buu>>>FPSSJ3 Goku>>>Kid Buu.

You can try and contort things all you'd like, but those ARE the facts. No amount of your childish antics can change that. 👆

I've been reading this just to watch you guys go at it, and upon scanning through the Buu saga again I found some choice tidbits.

This might by my favourite.

Goku is literally worse than Hitler.

Originally posted by Galan007
Are you truly THIS incapable of comprehending BASIC narrative?

Goku stated that he'd been trying to reach full power as a SSJ3, but was unable to because he required at least a minute to devote solely to powering up, and Kid Buu never gave him that much time. When Vegeta finally entered the fray, and attempted to buy Goku time, his stamina was already depleted from the lengthy battle with Kid Buu he'd just been involved in, which rendered him unable to reach full power as a SSJ3.

HAD Goku been able to fully power up, however, he could have destroyed Kid Buu "in an INSTANT." Conversely, Goku explicitly stated that Super Buu was "FAR" more powerful than himself.
ie. Super Buu>>>FPSSJ3 Goku>>>Kid Buu.

You can try and contort things all you'd like, but those ARE the facts. No amount of your childish antics can change that. 👆

Are you trying to make yourself look stupid?

Either that, or you literally don't know how to read. Look at the scan again.

Since your english teacher obviously did such a bad job, let me educate you here.

In the scan, you can clearly see Vegeta say, "While SS3 at full power, you can destroy him in an instant.", to which Goku replies, "That's what I've been trying to do, but I haven't been able to yet."

Look at the dialogue. The verb in Vegeta's sentence, which is the basis of Goku's statement in reply, is clearly the word, "destroy". Goku says that's what he's been trying to DO. There is nothing else in the context that can be construed as a thing for him to do. He can't "at full power". He can't "in an instant". He can't "While SS3". He CAN "destroy".

Do you still need help, or do you get it now? 👆

This is ridiculous.

Originally posted by BloodRain
This is ridiculous.

👆

im still trying to figure out how the anime takes precedence over the manga

It doesn't.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Are you trying to make yourself look stupid?

Either that, or you literally don't know how to read. Look at the scan again.

Since your english teacher obviously did such a bad job, let me educate you here.

In the scan, you can clearly see Vegeta say, "While SS3 at full power, you can destroy him in an instant.", to which Goku replies, "That's what I've been trying to do, but I haven't been able to yet."

Look at the dialogue. The verb in Vegeta's sentence, which is the basis of Goku's statement in reply, is clearly the word, "destroy". Goku says that's what he's been trying to DO. There is nothing else in the context that can be construed as a thing for him to do. He can't "at full power". He can't "in an instant". He can't "While SS3". He [B]CAN "destroy".

Do you still need help, or do you get it now? 👆 [/B]

The only way for Goku to destroy Kid Buu was by fully powering up. However, he'd "been trying to" fully power up/destroy Buu, but doing so required a solid minute of 'charging'--and Buu never gave him that much time. IF Goku could have reached FPSSJ3, he would've destroyed Kid Buu "in an INSTANT."

At least I know for sure that you truly ARE incapable of comprehending BASIC narrative. Good job going full-tard. 👆

Either way Goku still was able to fight evenly with Baby Buu but made it clear that Super buu was far too much for him. Semantics aside there is nothing that can be said to counter this

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, you are the essence of idiot. This is the simplest of dialogue, yet you've managed to phuck it up.

The only way for Goku to destroy Kid Buu was by fully powering up. However, he'd "been trying to" fully power up/destroy Buu, but doing so required a solid minute of 'charging'--and Buu never gave him that much time. IF Goku could have reached FPSSJ3, he would've destroyed Kid Buu "in an INSTANT."

At least I know for sure that you truly ARE incapable of comprehending BASIC narrative. Good job going full-tard. 👆

I don't... Do you literally have some kind of mental impairment?

NOWHERE IN THE ENTIRE SCAN, did Vegeta say the words charging, or powering up.

You're literally sitting there lying about the scan that's been posted for everyone to see. It's very clear what the scan is saying, no matter how much you lie and try to change that.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I can link the scene if you want.

Goku says, SPECIFICALLY, "What?! He's getting stronger instead of weaker!", as he was turning from Super Buu into Kid Buu.

@ 1:43

Vegeta: How could he be increasing instead of decreasing?!

Goku: If this keeps up, he's gonna be stronger than he was before!

Vegeta: Yes, I know.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
YouTube video

@ 1:43

Vegeta: How could he be increasing instead of decreasing?!

Goku: If this keeps up, he's gonna be stronger than he was before!

Vegeta: Yes, I know.

Thanks. I was gonna post it, but I honestly couldn't find it at all, lol.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
YouTube video

@ 1:43

Vegeta: How could he be increasing instead of decreasing?!

Goku: If this keeps up, he's gonna be stronger than he was before!

Vegeta: Yes, I know.

buff buu was stronger than kid buu

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I don't... Do you literally have some kind of mental impairment?

NOWHERE IN THE ENTIRE SCAN, did Vegeta say the words charging, or powering up.

You're literally sitting there lying about the scan that's been posted for everyone to see. It's very clear what the scan is saying, no matter how much you lie and try to change that.

here it is right here
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3160-13/dragon-ball/chapter-511.html

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3161-1/dragon-ball/chapter-512.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNuXZR-pGzg at 41:48

they talk about goku trying to reach full power ssj3

Originally posted by chasedown
here it is right here
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3160-13/dragon-ball/chapter-511.html

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3161-1/dragon-ball/chapter-512.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNuXZR-pGzg at 41:48

they talk about goku trying to reach full power ssj3

lol well that settles it