And merely dueling him for a while doesn't indicate that Koon is equal to him. He still lost. And anyway, dueling Savage is more of a test of your physical abilities than your skill. I consider Ahsoka more skilled than freaking Savage. roll eyes (sarcastic)Lacking substantial feats, but still considered among the greatest Sith Warriors alive at the time. And Zallow crushed them and was blitzing them. It's an incredibly impressive feat. And Koon isn't above Savage Opress, so I don't know what you're on about there. Zallow doesn't need to be above Savage to be on par with Koon. And Kao was more powerful and likely as skilled as Koon was, and Malgus beat him at his weakest and least skilled point.
I still don't rate that much at all. Besides, wasn't that from before TPM? It's hardly accurate in the CW considering even Savage beat Koon. Not really a true test of skill for someone like Maul.
Well you're really not helping your case when you start claiming that someone from the PT era is above one of the best duelists of TOR because that character is a mid-tier in the PT. How would you define that other than that you consider PT characters more skilled than those of other era's, because they're from the PT era? All you've done is try to justify your bias. But even a justifiable bias is still bias.
1. It indicates a certain level of parity between them. You keep reiterating that "Koon lost" yet failing to make any mention of the fact that it was because of his mask, not a loss in terms of skill. Dueling Savage is most certainly a test of your skill as well, and the notion that Ahsoka is a better duelist than him is pretty preposterous IMO. Savage is a mixture of skill and physical stats, so I tend to tier him based on his overall fighting ability rather than raw skill, and in terms of raw fighting ability Savage, and by proxy Koon, are around Ventress' level, when you consider all of their common encounters with each other.
2. It isn't an "incredible" feat by any means, but it is impressive. It however doesn't put Zallow on Koon's level considering his relatively back and forth fight with Ventress. Ventress actually has impressive dueling feats, like dueling evenly with Kenobi, challenging Anakin frequently, forcing Mace to use "all of his skills" to repel her, and so on, so Koon dueling her with some parity puts him above both Malgus and Zallow.
Saying Kao is "likely" as skilled as Koon is pure conjecture on your part, and you again fail to make mention of context - Kao was fatigued when Malgus poured on his final assault.
3. Disregard it all you want. Yeah, it was from a few months prior to TPM IIRC, in the novel Shadow Hunter. Even then Maul's lightsaber training had been completed so he would be as skilled as he was during TPM. I don't think I need to go over why Koon didn't merely "lose" to Savage again.
4. I'm not saying Plo Koon is above Malgus purely because of what era is he from - I'm comparing their feats. I was saying that Malgus' accolade alone does not put him above Koon, because none of the duelists Malgus would have been presumably better than have Koon's feats. You can keep accusing me of bias but I don't really care, to be honest, I have nothing against TOR era and I've dabbled in more than just PT in my reading.
I didn't say he'd beat Koon easily in skill, but he would beat him in lightsabers. He beat Zallow who was fast enough to blitz the finest Sith Warriors the Empire had, he matched Aryn who was fast enough to appear in multiple places at once and Malgus himself was fast enough that the world seemed frozen in time at one point. He's stronger than Aryn who was ale to throw him 30 meters with one hand and kicked Adraas hard enough to shoot him across a room and split a marble column in half. And he's much more powerful than Koon is, which adds a significant advantage to a lightsaber duel.He's just all around better than Koon is in every way.
You've merely repeated Malgus' feats which I'm well aware of. Again, in my opinion the fight goes down depending on how Malgus chooses to fight, if he exercises his power advantage he can win, if he focuses on dueling he's probably going to lose.
I'm willing to agree to disagree with you if you feel like we're at an impasse? Because we're beginning to repeat some of our initial points now.
Merely dueling with Savage isn't impressive. Malgus defeated Ven Zallow in a duel, the same guy who moments earlier was blitzing some of the greatest Sith Warriors in the Empire. And he defeated the Jedi Battlemaster in Keo Cen Darach, who showed extremely impressive skill and force power in the duel. The guy was wielding a double-bladed lightsaber in one hand, he was pretty damn good. And he more than held his own with Aryn Leneer, who was better than both of them.
Zallow has no real feats of skill to compare with Savage fighting evenly with Ventress, killing Adi Gallia, and being a pain to Kenobi/Skywalker. He is literally featless apart from dying to Malgus. Beating no-name fodder characters isn't as impressive as what we've seen from Savage, Malgus at this point is more powerful than Savage and likely as skilled.
Maul's opinions aren't worth much. This is the same guy who thought he could solo the Jedi Temple. And that definitely IS era bias. PT characters aren't better just because you think the era had stronger duelists. And a mid-tier duelist from that era isn't "a tier or so" above the best duelist of another era just because of that. erm
Source for Maul saying he could solo the Jedi temple? He said Plo Koon would be a challenge for him, and Plo's skill is already attested to the feat of skill he performed by fighting Ventess with one arm. This is a superior feat to anything Malgus displayed at this time.
Plo wins via superior skill first round
And Malgus gets slaughtered the 2nd round
Originally posted by ILS
I'm willing to agree to disagree with you if you feel like we're at an impasse? Because we're beginning to repeat some of our initial points now.
I forgot to reply but yeah. I'll quickly reply to a few things though.
Originally posted by ILS
1. It indicates a certain level of parity between them. You keep reiterating that "Koon lost" yet failing to make any mention of the fact that it was because of his mask, not a loss in terms of skill. Dueling Savage is most certainly a test of your skill as well, and the notion that Ahsoka is a better duelist than him is pretty preposterous IMO. Savage is a mixture of skill and physical stats, so I tend to tier him based on his overall fighting ability rather than raw skill, and in terms of raw fighting ability Savage, and by proxy Koon, are around Ventress' level, when you consider all of their common encounters with each other.
You can fight someone for a few pages without actually being equal to them. I wouldn't say Adi Gallia is Ventress/Obi-Wan level just because she lasted 2 minutes against Savage. And that Koon lost because of his mask is irrelevant. Why do you think Malgus can't do the same thing?
Ahsoka has more lightsaber skill than Savage. I didn't say she was better than him in a duel.
Originally posted by ILS
2. It isn't an "incredible" feat by any means, but it is impressive. It however doesn't put Zallow on Koon's level considering his relatively back and forth fight with Ventress. Ventress actually has impressive dueling feats, like dueling evenly with Kenobi, challenging Anakin frequently, forcing Mace to use "all of his skills" to repel her, and so on, so Koon dueling her with some parity puts him above both Malgus and Zallow.
I'd say it is an incredible feat, yeah. Blitzing the best Sith Warriors in the Empire would be like blitzing Magnaguards for the PT equivalent (the really good ones, not the shitty ones that even Ahsoka can beat). Even Anakin and Obi-Wan have issues with them sometimes.
IIRC Koon fought Ventress right at the start of the Clone Wars. So she wasn't nearly as good at that point as she was later. Dueling her doesn't indicate superiority to Malgus and Zallow in either case.
Originally posted by ILS
I think it'd be pretty hard to beat Koon in sabers considering Malgus isn't as good a duelist as Koon.
Malgus has superior speed, strength and durability (he can tank multiple lightsaber blows) plus he's considerably more powerful. Even if Koon does have the skill advantage, he's still outmatched and it won't matter.