Originally posted by NewGuy01
And... Why does this matter again?Yep. Mace is startled to see Vos use a Vaapad maneuver and TKs him later on. I'm not sure why you brought it up, since it in no way diminishes my point.
Of course he hasn't, but that doesn't mean he couldn't. Qui-Gon hasn't stopped moving speeders either.
Also, proof that the sword was compromised of Cortosis?
That does not look like metal to me.
So?
Except that he literally tells us that he can and has used it in combat, and that it gives him a distinct edge against his fellow Jedi. 😬
Not convinced. His speed feats are somewhat better, but not to the degree that you're trying to imply.
Besides, because of his traits as a telepath, Saesee's reaction times are quicker than Jinn's as well. I don't see speed being a definitive factor in the fight tbh.
Disagreed, but like the above they're close enough here that it's negligible anyways.
And Saesee's allowed him to contend with Mace. And as much as you can say about the validity of a sparring match, the comparison between Vos's and Saesee's performances remains fairly solid. Quinlan has plenty of high-tier saber feats by this point. Saesee's performance in sparring ring with Windu remains solidly better than his own. There's really not much getting around that.
You keep mentioning this as if these disadvantages wouldn't be present here as well. It's admirable, sure, but makes no difference to the fight itself.
Anyway, differences in their physical attributes appear to be more or less nil. What it really comes down to is Qui-Gon having greater finesse and Saesee having greater power. I still stand by the notion that they're give or take evenly matched.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And... Why does this matter again?
having a conversation and sparring is not a show of skill, in fact the quote you provided stated that it was a form of "Jedi play" that to bystander it may seem like a brutal fight, but to them it was just a match - a type of match in which combatants typically hold back
Yep. Mace is startled to see Vos use a Vaapad maneuver and TKs him later on. I'm not sure why you brought it up, since it in no way diminishes my point.
Vos, was still able to keep up with Mace in that training match and lost to mace because of that TK match. Nothing that supports that Vos was losing the match, he's a practitioner of Ataru, so of course he'd be more exhausted and sweaty.
Of course he hasn't, but that doesn't mean he couldn't. Qui-Gon hasn't stopped moving speeders either.Also, proof that the sword was compromised of Cortosis?
Point taken. A normal sword would have been cut clean off by the strike a lightsaber, this one broke because of the sheer force of Jinn's blow.
That does not look like metal to me.
Yet it's solid - stone, metal, regardless, he kicks a man, and there's big dent afterwords.
So?
He would have time to improve over the course of those years. I mean, Obi-Wan did improve quite a lot over the three years.
Except that he literally tells us that he can and has used it in combat, and that it gives him a distinct edge against his fellow Jedi. 😬
And on the two occasions that he read someone's mind he was either not fighting or lowered his guard. So, though it would be an edge in this match, he would not be able to use it to its full capacity
Not convinced. His speed feats are somewhat better, but not to the degree that you're trying to imply.
Jinn has replicated the speed feats that Tiin has done and has accomplished much better as well.
Besides, because of his traits as a telepath, Saesee's reaction times are quicker than Jinn's as well. I don't see speed being a definitive factor in the fight tbh.
See the section about his Telepathy. the edge is not that great - it provides an edge, yeah. but not a significant one.
Disagreed, but like the above they're close enough here that it's negligible anyways.
Eh, more or less, yeah.
And Saesee's allowed him to contend with Mace. And as much as you can say about the validity of a sparring match, the comparison between Vos's and Saesee's performances remains fairly solid. Quinlan has plenty of high-tier saber feats by this point. Saesee's performance in sparring ring with Windu remains solidly better than his own. There's really not much getting around that.
Alright, dude. I'm really tired of arguing this part - in fact i'm pretty sure, you yourself would agree with this.
There is a Huge difference between the fight that Jinn had and the fight that Saesee Tiin had. Let's analyse.
Combatants:
Jinn Vs Maul.
Disadvantages:
- A much younger and faster combatant.
- Combatant is using a double bladed weapon which Jinn is unfamiliar with.
- He fought the sith lord alone, while Fatigued.
Now, Jinn has all of this going against him. what does Tiin having going against him in a sparring match? Now, there's also a really big fat factor that you seem to be forgetting. Jinn was fighting for his and Obi-Wan's life, Tiin was not fighting for his life, he was having a sparring match where both combatants hold back tremendously.
You keep mentioning this as if these disadvantages wouldn't be present here as well. It's admirable, sure, but makes no difference to the fight itself.
Again, it shows that he can keep up with Maul's energetic and more acrobatic fighting style.
Anyway, differences in their physical attributes appear to be more or less nil. What it really comes down to is Qui-Gon having greater finesse and Saesee having greater power. I still stand by the notion that they're give or take evenly matched.
And I like-wise stand by the notion that Jinn is the superior. A sparring match hold no real value in a real fight. Especially in a fight where one is trying to stay alive. Tahl sparred with Jinn and showed little strain when using Ataru, does that mean She would match him[Jinn]? Asajj Ventress sparred with Dooku during OCW, does that mean she would match him[Dooku]? There is a great disparity between a real fight and a Sparring match.
Apologies if i seem aggressive, that's not my intention. But yeah, this is why i believe Jinn would win.
Vos, was still able to keep up with Mace in that training match and lost to mace because of that TK match. Nothing that supports that Vos was losing the match.
Except that Mace is much more relaxed, and is literally slapping Vos around. I don't see how anyone could interpret his performance as being even with Saesee's. I get the feeling you're just being stubborn.
Point taken. A normal sword would have been cut clean off by the strike a lightsaber, this one broke because of the sheer force of Jinn's blow.
That doesn't equate to it compromising of Cortosis. Would have been a really cool feat if it were, though.
Yet it's solid - stone, metal, regardless, he kicks a man, and there's big dent afterwords.
Well, there's a pretty significant difference between cracking concrete and cracking steel.
And on the two occasions that he read someone's mind he was either not fighting or lowered his guard. So, though it would be an edge in this match, he would not be able to use it to its full capacity
Well for one thing, Palpatine being able to capitalize on something doesn't mean Jinn could. Secondly, he doesn't need to fully probe Qui-Gon's mind--All he has to do is pick up monosyllabic thoughts, which he has demonstrably done in combat countless times before.
the edge is not that great - it provides an edge, yeah. but not a significant one.
His superior precognitive and telepathic abilities provides the advantage of faster reaction times. Faster reaction times makes up for disparity in speed.
Eh, more or less, yeah.
Glad you agree.
A sparring match hold no real value in a real fight.
Except it does. And even if it didn't, Saesee is still a celebrated master of the lightsaber, and considered to be one of the best swordsmen in history--He doesn't really need anything else to solidify his position as one of the Order's finest warriors.
In short: Mace and Shaak Ti agree with me. Poo on you. Sayonara.
Asajj Ventress sparred with Dooku during OCW, does that mean she would match him[Dooku]?
Ventress did no better in that sparring match than she did in their real fight, what's your point?
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except that Mace is much more relaxed, and is literally slapping Vos around. I don't see how anyone could interpret his performance as being even with Saesee's. I get the feeling you're just being stubborn.
A Vos who was quote "Unbalanced" I'm not being stubborn, I just don't think Tiin is all that impressive. - his hype doesn't compare to his actual showings, which are not that far from what a typical Jedi Knight can accomplish - with the exception of the Speeder feat and his Telepathic abilities.
That doesn't equate to it compromising of Cortosis. Would have been a really cool feat if it were, though.
Indeed, that also doesn't equate to it being a normal sword.
Well, there's a pretty significant difference between cracking concrete and cracking steel.
Perhaps, yet Jinn has done it, with a single kick. his strength - and his overall ability is quite underrated - though no doubt you'd say the same for Tiin.
Well for one thing, Palpatine being able to capitalize on something doesn't mean Jinn could.
The only thing Sidious capitalize on was on Saesee Tiin lowering his guard to read his mind, requiring great focus
Secondly, he doesn't need to fully probe Qui-Gon's mind--All he has to do is pick up monosyllabic thoughts, which he has demonstrably done in combat countless times before.
And will that be enough? Maul has superior reflexes and yet he was put on the defense, knocked out of combat and was losing to Jinn during their final bout on Naboo.
His superior precognitive and telepathic abilities provides the advantage of faster reaction times. Faster reaction times makes up for disparity in speed.
Faster than moving before anyone could breath? becoming a blur, moving faster than eye could follow? faster than being able to keep up with Darth Maul? Perhaps, but that alone wont grant Tiin the victory.
Glad you agree.
😛
Except it does. And even if it didn't, Saesee is still a celebrated master of the lightsaber, and considered to be one of the best swordsmen in history
No it doesn't dude. Come on, Arhael brings up a good point, Corran Horn beat Luke in a sparring match, does that automatically mean Corran could defeat Vader? Lumiya? Caedus? or Palpatine?
--He doesn't really need anything else to solidify his position as one of the Order's finest warriors.
Quotes and accolades are only one part of the equation my friend. His hype is good, his feats however, are sub-par and easily replicated by Jinn. Tulak Hord will not beat Yoda based solely on hype, Soara Antana of the Jedi Quest books is supposedly a renowned lightsaber duelist, yet she will not beat or even go near Anakin Skywalker, Kas'im or Revan.
In short: Mace and Shaak Ti agree with me. Poo on you. Sayonara.
If you wanna play like that, Mace and Jinn are considered peers.. and Anoon's peers(Jedi Council, Jedi Knights, Masters etc) think him to have "unrivaled skilled" yet he himself says Mace and Jinn are superior to him.
Ventress did no better in that sparring match than she did in their real fight, what's your point?
What about Tahl? What about Corran against Luke? What about Grevious against Dooku? The point is, just because they spar together, it doesn't make them equals. does Talon sparring/fighting against Nihl mean she's his equal? does Bastila sparring with revan mean she is his equal? and most importantly. Does Feemor and Xanatos sparring with Jinn, make them both his peers?
A Vos who was quote "Unbalanced"
Vos is always unbalanced. That is literally the defining trait of his character until after the Siege of Saleucami. I feel you are in need of reading Vos's source material--It's fairly good.
Maul was losing to Jinn during their final bout on Naboo.
Lol. Maul was in complete control of the entire fight up to the finale, and the one time Jinn gained the advantage he was immediately thereafter cut down. He wasn't even close to winning that fight.
Perhaps, but that alone wont grant Tiin the victory.
Never claimed it would.
Corran Horn beat Luke in a sparring match,
I don't recall this, but if he did, good for him. And yeah, I think Corran has a fair shot at taking down Lumiya, though admittedly I don't know enough about him to make a definite call.
Quotes and accolades are only one part of the equation my friend.
According to you.
Tulak Hord will not beat Yoda based solely on hype,
No, but he will beat Bane. homer
Soara Antana of the Jedi Quest books,
Who in fvck's name is that?
If you wanna play like that, Mace and Jinn are considered peers.. and Anoon's peers think him to have "unrivaled skilled" yet he himself says Mace and Jinn are superior to him.
I know, that's probably the best Jinn has going for him in terms of skill tbh.
The point is, just because they spar together, it doesn't make them equals.
I've never claimed Saesee was Mace's equal, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.
Talon sparring/fighting against Nihl mean she's his equal?
She probably is.
Does Feemor and Xanatos sparring with Jinn, make them both his peers?
No, because they were getting tooled. 😂
Come on, Arhael brings up a good point,
**Rules:**- Only NewGuy01 and I are allowed to make arguments for our selected characters.
- Any and all arguments that were NOT made by either NewGuy or myself will not be taken into consideration.
You're officially disqualified, Xtasy. Good run, but you're done.