Originally posted by Bentley
In such case, the agent killing you is not an unexisting entity, because it doesn't exist.Otherwise I can get lots of people with heart problems and make entire pantheons of aliens, comicbook characters and other fictional forces, set them up, and make them all murderers.
You have lost me.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You have lost me.
You can be killed by the fact that you believe something or for something that you thought was a different thing than it actually was. But if a dog (real creature) kills me and I think it's a dragon (non-existing creature), and I was killed because I thought it was a dragon (had my anti-dragon charm on me, doesn't ward off dogs), the dragon is still not a murderer.
Because he doesn't exist and an unexisting entity can't kill. So no, belief never plays a part in changed what really happens in the context we're dealing with anyways.
Originally posted by Star428
Lord, have mercy on these poor deceived souls.
While I don't mind having the mercy of the lord I don't appreciate you calling my soul poor and deceived.
Originally posted by Bentley
You can be killed by the fact that you believe something or for something that you thought was a different thing than it actually was. But if a dog (real creature) kills me and I think it's a dragon (non-existing creature), and I was killed because I thought it was a dragon (had my anti-dragon charm on me, doesn't ward off dogs), the dragon is still not a murderer.Because he doesn't exist and an unexisting entity can't kill. So no, belief never plays a part in changed what really happens in the context we're dealing with anyways.
Bentley, Let me explain it this way:
We have a gnostic who believes that the god of the bible is a murderer. While on the other hand, we have a protestant who believes that the god of the bible is not a murderer.
Is the god of the bible a murderer or not?
The answer is: it depends on what you believe.
I say the answer that I believe is no.
The reason I come to that answer is because the god of the bible is a personification, and therefore, not real, and not God.
Can a fictional character commit murder in real life?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Bentley, Let me explain it this way:We have a gnostic who believes that the god of the bible is a murderer. While on the other hand, we have a protestant who believes that the god of the bible is not a murderer.
Well, the distinction I established stems from my way of separating the first assumption (the discussion about gnostic beliefs and protestant beliefs) with the second one (whether or not God -of the biblical tradition- exists or not).
For the first question, that admits the existence of God and that his acts have been -more or less- faithfully recorded on scripture, there is a question of point of view. Yes, the gnostic and the protestant evaluate the actions differently, but that still wouldn't mean their interpretations faithfully describe the actions of the divinity (because we admit the divinity existed and acted, for the sake of their argument). In either case, their opinion and belief doesn't matter to the actual truth, it can be fitting or not to describe the events in question, but belief changes nothing.
Belief only matters when we work from the Bible as a text, and they are discussing about it as a reality.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is the god of the bible a murderer or not?The answer is: it depends on what you believe.
I say the answer that I believe is no.
The reason I come to that answer is because the god of the bible is a personification, and therefore, not real, and not God.
Can a fictional character commit murder in real life?
Again, in this case, your belief doesn't actually change the reality of God's existence. Yes, if gods are fictional they can't be murderers, but belief isn't affecting whether gods exist or not.
My point is, arguing about belief is mooth in either point. The actual existence of some events is the point in contention, because we are arguing not about interpreting the Bible (a book), but interpreting the reality behind the book (which is assumed to be historical for the sake of the argument).
Of course, maybe I misread the question and made it into a more complex argument than it was originally. I tend to do that because I suck 👆
Originally posted by Bentley
Well, the distinction I established stems from my way of separating the first assumption (the discussion about gnostic beliefs and protestant beliefs) with the second one (whether or not God -of the biblical tradition- exists or not).
Originally posted by Bentley
For the first question, that admits the existence of God and that his acts have been -more or less- faithfully recorded on scripture, there is a question of point of view. Yes, the gnostic and the protestant evaluate the actions differently, but that still wouldn't mean their interpretations faithfully describe the actions of the divinity (because we admit the divinity existed and acted, for the sake of their argument). In either case, their opinion and belief doesn't matter to the actual truth, it can be fitting or not to describe the events in question, but belief changes nothing.
Originally posted by Bentley
Belief only matters when we work from the Bible as a text, and they are discussing about it as a reality.
Originally posted by Bentley
Again, in this case, your belief doesn't actually change the reality of God's existence. Yes, if gods are fictional they can't be murderers, but belief isn't affecting whether gods exist or not.
Originally posted by Bentley
My point is, arguing about belief is mooth in either point. The actual existence of some events is the point in contention, because we are arguing not about interpreting the Bible (a book), but interpreting the reality behind the book (which is assumed to be historical for the sake of the argument).
Originally posted by Bentley
Of course, maybe I misread the question and made it into a more complex argument than it was originally. I tend to do that because I suck 👆
Originally posted by Greatest I am
You keep showing us your poor morals.Let's see if we can help you think in a moral way.
As above, so below.
Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.
Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?
In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.
Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?
For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.
Regards
DL
your analogy is off and unsound...
God didn't punish Jesus... -_-
Jesus sacrificed Himself, what God did was sent Jesus to the world to save the people from sin... if you want parallelism, here's a correct one...
"And he began to tell the people this parable: A man planted a vineyard, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country for a long while.
When the time came, he sent a servant to the tenants, that they should give him some of the fruit of the vineyard; but the tenants beat him, and sent him away empty-handed.
And he sent another servant; him also they beat and treated shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed.
And he sent yet a third; this one they wounded and cast out.
Then the owner of the vineyard said, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; it may be they will respect him.
But when the tenants saw him, they said to themselves, This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
And they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them?"
Luke 20:9-15
and Jesus - who was sent by God - sacrificed Himself:
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time."
I Timothy 2:5-6
and i guess you didn't read the part where God exalted Jesus because of what He went through?
"Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Acts 2:36
"Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Philippians 2:9-11
and for the record, according to the Bible, it's the people who crucified Jesus... it's not God who punished Him... Jesus sacrificed Himself...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
😂 Satan is mythology. He was made up by humans. The fact he does not exist is not his master plan. 🙄 Humans are to blame for all of the evil in the world.
I find it incredibly odd that you say that you don't push your beliefs onto others, but then turn around and do the opposite. What's the deal with that? If someone believes in that God exists, or that Satan has deceived the entire world, why continue to press on with the 'they are myths stance"? If you did not realize that you were doing it, realize that you have been, reflect on it, and correct yourself if you truly have no intent on pushing your beliefs onto others. If not, keep on keeping on, but steer away from the denial.
Originally posted by Stoic
I find it incredibly odd that you say that you don't push your beliefs onto others, but then turn around and do the opposite.
Originally posted by Stoic
What's the deal with that?
Originally posted by Stoic
If someone believes in that God exists, or that Satan has deceived the entire world, why continue to press on with the 'they are myths stance"?
Originally posted by Stoic
If you did not realize that you were doing it, realize that you have been, reflect on it, and correct yourself if you truly have no intent on pushing your beliefs onto others.
Originally posted by Stoic
If not, keep on keeping on, but steer away from the denial.
Originally posted by Stoic
I find it incredibly odd that you say that you don't push your beliefs onto others, but then turn around and do the opposite. What's the deal with that? If someone believes in that God exists, or that Satan has deceived the entire world, why continue to press on with the 'they are myths stance"? If you did not realize that you were doing it, realize that you have been, reflect on it, and correct yourself if you truly have no intent on pushing your beliefs onto others. If not, keep on keeping on, but steer away from the denial.
finally!
👆
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I’m not PUSHING anything. I believe what I believe to be absolutely true. Satan does not exist.
well, maybe the term "pushing" is not particularly accurate on what you're doing... but it's pretty close...
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Adherents of every religion say the same thing. Telling someone that they're wrong, you're right and here's the religious why... is kinda pushing. Lightly, maybe. But still pushing.
I'm asserting, and I have every right to assert. The difference is, those "adherents" you speak of want to be the only ones who are allowed to assert. I'm not going to stop anyone else from asserting, but they are the ones who are complaining.
Let's remember what I said that created all this condemnation.
There is no Satan. All of the evil in the world is the responsibility of humans. There is no temper pushing us to do evil. We make the choice to do evil or good. There is no scapegoat or forgiver. We live in the world we create.
What is so wrong in telling people the truth?
Originally posted by ShakyamunisonOkay... not making demands that others shut up is a good thing. But it's not the same as not pushing your "truth" on others.
I'm asserting, and I have every right to assert. The difference is, those "adherents" you speak of want to be the only ones who are allowed to assert. I'm not going to stop anyone else from asserting, but they are the ones who are complaining.
Originally posted by ShakyamunisonThat same line can be spoken by anyone of any creed, and it would have the exact same amount of validity: none. Your truth is yours, not theirs.
Let's remember what I said that created all this condemnation.There is no Satan. All of the evil in the world is the responsibility of humans. There is no temper pushing us to do evil. We make the choice to do evil or good. There is no scapegoat or forgiver. We live in the world we create.
What is so wrong in telling people the truth?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Okay... not making demands that others shut up is a good thing. But it's not the same as not pushing your "truth" on others.That same line can be spoken by anyone of any creed, and it would have the exact same amount of validity: none. Your truth is yours, not theirs.
If someone were to tell you that the sky is green, would that be their truth, and the sky, being blue, your truth?
Or if someone believes the Earth to be flat, should we not tell them that it is a sphere?
You are making excuses for barbaric beliefs that only hold society back. A world without Satan is a world that has to take responsibility for the evil that it creates.
Originally posted by ShakyamunisonIt doesn't matter about our certainty of the truth. No matter how right I'm convinced I am, it's my truth, even if others agree with me about it. Proselytize about Satan's non-existence all you want and insist that this truth you speak is THE truth.
If someone were to tell you that the sky is green, would that be their truth, and the sky, being blue, your truth?Or if someone believes the Earth to be flat, should we not tell them that it is a sphere?
You are making excuses for barbaric beliefs that only hold society back. A world without Satan is a world that has to take responsibility for the evil that it creates.
Your insistence regarding this belief is no different than some Christian's insistence regarding yours. Your truth is correct to you, their truth is correct to them, mine to mine. I agree with you about this one, and I'll disagree with you about another. I'll push my beliefs about something, just as you're pushing yours now. But don't do yourself such disservice by insisting that your attempts to push your own version of the truth on others isn't really pushing because it's so obviously the truth. Your pushing your viewpoint on others. Pretty much everyone here is.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It doesn't matter about our certainty of the truth. No matter how right I'm convinced I am, it's my truth, even if others agree with me about it. Proselytize about Satan's non-existence all you want and insist that this truth you speak is THE truth.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Your insistence regarding this belief is no different than some Christian's insistence regarding yours.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Your truth is correct to you, their truth is correct to them, mine to mine.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I agree with you about this one, and I'll disagree with you about another. I'll push my beliefs about something, just as you're pushing yours now.
Originally posted by Star428
Lord, have mercy on these poor deceived souls.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But don't do yourself such disservice by insisting that your attempts to push your own version of the truth on others isn't really pushing because it's so obviously the truth. Your pushing your viewpoint on others. Pretty much everyone here is.