Originally posted by Marco1907
another baseless claim, did you understand when I said ''baseless claim'' ? I meant this, you said Vader is %80 of Sidious, yet Maul is unknown and you don't know him. How do you know that TCW Maul is not %90 of Sidious ? This is why you have baseless claims nothing more.
How do I know TCW Maul isnt %90 of Sidious? Well its easy. I watched TCW.
Originally posted by Dionysus
No, I said it because Sinious slaughtered you. Nothing more, nothing less.
Don't even bother with this guy. If you don't think Maul is Sidious' equal, you hate Maul. 😂
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What you think Sidious wouldn't beg for his life? And that's just a Maul thing? LOLNo it's a Sith thing. They desperately cling to life.
Maul learned well from Sidious. As Sidious proved when he begged Mace not to kill him. He may have been indirectly begging Skywalker to save him, but he WAS begging for mercy.
It's a Maul and Dooku thing to fear their abusive and sadistic master. In Maul's case, it's to the point of begging for mercy. Pretty sure Dooku would too, which explains why he let Anakin chop his head off instead of attempting to expose Palpatine's identity as Sidious: fearing his master more than death itself.
Sidious fears death (losing his power), Maul doesn't, he just fears Sidious. Maul begged for mercy, not his life.
Yes, because indirectly begging someone to save you is something anyone would do when their very life is in danger instead of continuing to weaken Mace's saber defense with lightning. Mace's struggle was real, while Palpatine being weak and loss of power was fake, which would indicate that Sidious had no reason to stop attacking, other than to pretend to be defenseless in order to force Anakin to interfere. Lucas concludes the reason for Sidious's feigning was what finalized Anakin's fall.
When Sidious's life was in danger, though; he killed his killer. He didn't beg.
Sidious is a true badass, and in all seriousness, Maul doesn't compare.
I'll address your other post later.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
@S66: No Filoni's made it very clear that was a Sith over attachment to life thing. Nothing to do with being an apprentice.All Sith seem like bad ass when they're kicking butt, but they will all seem pathetic when facing death. That's something Filoni's made pretty clear more than once.
Don't try to turn this into a debate. You tried to make a comparison between the two, and Sidious beats Maul in every category where being a badass is concerned.
Filoni also Said Maul was scared of Sidious.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No that's not what I proved at all. I proved they're not "invisible". If they were Pre-Vizsla would never have been able to go toe to toe with Maul. And that's a damn cartoon.
You used to claim it was because Maul didn't use the force to augment his speed beyond that of Viszla's for that one fight. Your view has shifted only when I called you out on your double standards for not applying the same standard with Sidious vs. Maul and Savage.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I suppose your theory is that either:A. Lucasfilm doesn't have the special effects to properly display "invisible" super speed. Not even in their animations or
B. It was simply artistic. Every single time, in every single Visual medium.
And that the only "real" speed is described to fans in the novels. So if you're not a SW Legends Eu fan you'll have no clue as to how fast they really are.
I'd say Lucas just doesn't give a shit about how fights look, otherwise he wouldn't have an old man doing the stunt of someone who can attack faster than jedi masters can react. Ian Mcdiarmid put so much emphasis on how much faster his character was supposed to be compared to other jedi, yet went on to do his own stunts, moving slower than my grandma, with his first two opponents being unable to react to his slow movements, despite being able to block blaster bolts. That scene was supposed to depict Palpatine as moving at speeds beyond just being invisible, considering that Tiin was in the same exact position when Sidious attacked him as he was in when Sidious attacked Kolar, whom Sidious attacked first. The fact that Lucas didn't care about how ridiculous one of the most important fights of the entire series looked, should tell you how much he cared about showcasing invisible speeds by slowing down the back ground. Obviously, he thought the implications were sufficient.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still none of that explains how Pre-Vizsla fights Maul, and how Jango Fett fights Kenobi and Windu, and even kills Jedi. And how Hondo goes toe to toe with frigging Anakin Skywalker!
Any jedi who can react to multiple blaster bolts coming from different angles, shouldn't be on the receiving end of physical attacks from non-force users. If the writers don't care about how fighting a random human is inconsistent with a jedi's precognition, then why would they care about it being inconsistent with their other abilities? I mean, nightbrothers can punch wholes through concrete, yet Viszla takes physical attacks from Maul like a G, and even matches him in a saber lock (Maul's the guy who easily parried all of Savage's blows, BTW). Either Visla is just that durable and strong, or it's....inconsistent?
Hell, even in TCW cartoons, Ventress disarmed several clone troopers before they were able to react. Either Ventress is a lot faster than Maul, or Viszla is a great deal faster than top of the line human soldiers. Or how about the fact that the writers can be inconsistent? Yes, even in TCW.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'll explain again to see if you can understand the point this time.They have clear superhuman reflexes, coordination. And clear superhuman speed when they leap around. Our when they sprint.
But in their normal striking and movements during Lightsaber fights- All the visual evidence Live action and Animation shows "slight" superhuman speed at best. The only thing that contradicts that so far are Legends Novels.
No, the movie and the cartoons contradict themselves. It's not just in the movies and the cartoons, the EU does it too, such as Mandalore The Ultimate one shotting jedi, without any explanation as to how he does it, other than him being an exceptional warrior, which still doesn't explain why a jedi's force senses aren't sufficient to handle non- force sensitive warriors. It's ignorant writing. It's as if the writers are ignorant about a force users advantages despite those advantages being consistent in just about every source they appear in.
Your explanation makes absolutely no sense. You're suggesting that a force user can accelerate their speed to do acrobats and such, but can't do the same with striking speed? Damn, they need to focus on what's more important: fancy stunts or taking out a threatening opponent as fast as possible? I guess Sidious learned that it was more important to take out threatening opponents as fast as he could by the time he faced Mace and the B-team than doing fancy cartwheels/backflips/leaps as he was doing during his fight with Maul and Savage. After all, all those heavy implications of him toying with the bros are out of the question. Perhaps a better explanation for taking out force using masters before they could react, owed to Sidious learning to focus on enhancing his speed more on saber attacks than fancy stunts and leaps.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Now maybe it'll be different next year when Episode 7 changes that(might even see something on the trailers this year). But in the mean time the evidence so far is lacking. And evidence supporting the contrary is plenty.
It's not lacking. It's actually more consistent than fighting evenly with random humans.
Despite all that being said, though, I guess it's just safe to conclude that Maul, "being equal to Sidious in speed," would put Vizsla above master force users in speed, seeing as he held his own against Maul, rather than acknowledging that PIS/CIS is common among fiction?
BTW, just so you know, you are in the EU section.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Don't try to turn this into a debate. You tried to make a comparison between the two, and Sidious beats Maul in every category where being a badass is concerned.Filoni also Said Maul was scared of Sidious.
What? You're the one debating this. I'm just telling you how it is.
Maul is very much like Sidious just a less powerful version.
Maul begged for his life, so did Sidious.
You can try and argue all you want that Sidious was "faking" his begging, it doesn't change that it's been outright confirmed from the guys who showed Maul begging that All Sith including Sidious are pathetic like that when it comes down to it.
And LOL @ Sidious being more of a bad ass then Maul in every category. He's more powerful, but that's it. His creepiness and seriously ugly looking face really don't compare to Maul's bad ass look and vibe he gives off at all. Not at all.
The fact that you're even comparing them in that category is frankly laughable.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66You used to claim it was because Maul didn't use the force to augment his speed beyond that of Viszla's for that one fight. Your view has shifted only when I called you out on your double standards for not applying the same standard with Sidious vs. Maul and Savage.
Don't go changing history like that.
You get pretty irritating when you hang on to old arguments and try to use them against me in current ones either completely out of context, or outright changing what I originally said like you're doing here.
FYI I used to say (and still do) that Maul purposefully didn't use TK on Pre-Vizsla.
In future quote me directly instead of making s*** up.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'd say Lucas just doesn't give a shit about how fights look, otherwise he wouldn't have an old man doing the stunt of someone who can attack faster than jedi masters can react. Ian Mcdiarmid put so much emphasis on how much faster his character was supposed to be compared to other jedi, yet went on to do his own stunts, moving slower than my grandma, with his first two opponents being unable to react to his slow movements, despite being able to block blaster bolts. That scene was supposed to depict Palpatine as moving at speeds beyond just being invisible, considering that Tiin was in the same exact position when Sidious attacked him as he was in when Sidious attacked Kolar, whom Sidious attacked first. The fact that Lucas didn't care about how ridiculous one of the most important fights of the entire series looked, should tell you how much he cared about showcasing invisible speeds by slowing down the back ground. Obviously, he thought the implications were sufficient.
Right, none of this explains why this "invisible" speed to which Jedi can't even react, isn't shown anywhere in TCW animation.
And your whole Blocking Blaster Bolts argument is self defeating. Because unless you're honestly claiming Sidious moves faster than Blaster Bolts then he's clear slower than than other things those Jedi have reacted to. Meaning he gets past their defenses due to partially speed, but also many other factors- Most importantly much better Pre-Cog, but also skill, surprise fear and mobility.
Heck looking at what Yoda did to Ventress, he could have even frozen them.
And btw the same scene was revisualized for Yoda's vision in TCW animation. Still nothing even resembling invisible speed.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Any jedi who can react to multiple blaster bolts coming from different angles, shouldn't be on the receiving end of physical attacks from non-force users. If the writers don't care about how fighting a random human is inconsistent with a jedi's precognition, then why would they care about it being inconsistent with their other abilities? I mean, nightbrothers can punch wholes through concrete, yet Viszla takes physical attacks from Maul like a G, and even matches him in a saber lock (Maul's the guy who easily parried all of Savage's blows, BTW). Either Visla is just that durable and strong, or it's....inconsistent?
Anyone can get hit in close-quarter combat. That's not the same at all as blocking blaster fire.
So is this your argument? Inconsistencies = we can make up whatever we want.
At least I've seen Maul fight Pre-Vizsla. But I've never seen even Yoda or Sidious fight at invisible speeds, let alone Maul.
Oh Saber locks are inconsistent in pretty much every fight. Kenobi got into a Saber lock with Maul and Opress combined in 1 scene, whilst Dooku has been floored by 1 Strike of Opress's. That all depends on how much the combatant is drawing upon the Force in that 1 Blade lock.
Shadow Conspiracy for instance notes when Sidious locks blades with both Maul and Opress, how he strains reaching through the Force to do so.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Hell, even in TCW cartoons, Ventress disarmed several clone troopers before they were able to react. Either Ventress is a lot faster than Maul, or Viszla is a great deal faster than top of the line human soldiers. Or how about the fact that the writers can be inconsistent? Yes, even in TCW.
Ventress has Pre-Cog. Something Clone Troopers don't, but Maul does.
When have I ever said or even suggested that Jedi/Sith are not faster than "top of the line human soldiers."
It's funny how you'd rather jump to consistent inconsistency over Jedi/Sith not being "invisible" even though we've never once seen them being "invisible."
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, the movie and the cartoons contradict themselves. It's not just in the movies and the cartoons, the EU does it too, such as Mandalore The Ultimate one shotting jedi, without any explanation as to how he does it, other than him being an exceptional warrior, which still doesn't explain why a jedi's force senses aren't sufficient to handle non- force sensitive warriors. It's ignorant writing. It's as if the writers are ignorant about a force users advantages despite those advantages being consistent in just about every source they appear in.
No the movies and animation don't contradict themselves actually, because they've never depicted this "invisible combat speed," so there's nothing to contradict.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Your explanation makes absolutely no sense. You're suggesting that a force user can accelerate their speed to do acrobats and such, but can't do the same with striking speed? Damn, they need to focus on what's more important: fancy stunts or taking out a threatening opponent as fast as possible? I guess Sidious learned that it was more important to take out threatening opponents as fast as he could by the time he faced Mace and the B-team than doing fancy cartwheels/backflips/leaps as he was doing during his fight with Maul and Savage. After all, all those heavy implications of him toying with the bros are out of the question. Perhaps a better explanation for taking out force using masters before they could react, owed to Sidious learning to focus on enhancing his speed more on saber attacks than fancy stunts and leaps.
Again you can't just make up your own speed never once depicted visually, just because my explanations make no sense to you.
Those "fancy" cartwheels/backflips/leaps is where their real speed likes. Which btw are still not invisible.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Despite all that being said, though, I guess it's just safe to conclude that Maul, "being equal to Sidious in speed," would put Vizsla above master force users in speed, seeing as he held his own against Maul, rather than acknowledging that PIS/CIS is common among fiction?
Didn't Maul floor Vizsla after a few seconds of Saber fighting, before he began shooting stuff at him, or am I missing something? Didn't Maul take a Saber wielding Vizsla with an arm twist without any weapon, or am I missing something else?
And when did I claim Maul's speed was "equal" to Sidious's?
He displayed equal skill and speed in their final fight after his Brother got killed. But I doubt he fought at that same level against Vizsla, seen as Vizsla didn't just kill Opress.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, just so you know, you are in the EU section.
Which has what to do with what?
Clearly you're not actually reading the crux of my argument which is that this "invisible" combat speed has never been shown to us VISUALLY in any Star Wars Live Action or Animation.
That's where I stated that "Perhaps" Episode 7 will change that. But so far the evidence is none existant.
Originally posted by Sinious
How do I know TCW Maul isnt %90 of Sidious? Well its easy. I watched TCW.
Yeah, you don't have the source. I say Maul is %90 of Sidious, now prove it otherwise.
The reason Lucas gave that percentage because Vader fanboys like you can understand the significant gap between crippled Vader and Sidious, Sidious never see Vader as a rival. But Maul was. (Sidious said this himself not me, and TCW written by Lucas)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9VWlrJJOJM
So that puts Maul ahead of Vader. Now if you don't have any source about Vader's superiority on Maul from Lucas, from movies or from comicbooks, from novels etc. , don't waste my time with fanboy replies of yours. Because this is really getting irritating for me, people just gives more credit to Vader because he is just popular, nothing more.
Originally posted by Arhael
Concept of invisible speed doesn't add up. Every super fast sweep would require counter-balancing. If someone could deliver super-human speed attack, it would simply take them off feet.
Yes, that's why the speed they leap or sprint at can not be the same as the speed they continuously move at mid-combat.
And even their leaps and jumps are not invisible.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah, you don't have the source. I say Maul is %90 of Sidious, now prove it otherwise.The reason Lucas gave that percentage because Vader fanboys like you can understand the significant gap between crippled Vader and Sidious, Sidious never see Vader as a rival. But Maul was. (Sidious said this himself not me, and TCW written by Lucas)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9VWlrJJOJM
So that puts Maul ahead of Vader. Now if you don't have any source about Vader's superiority on Maul from Lucas, from movies or from comicbooks, from novels etc. , don't waste my time with fanboy replies of yours. Because this is really getting irritating for me, people just gives more credit to Vader because he is just popular, nothing more.
😆
Again,
Vader never got played like a doll by Sidious the way Maul did.
Now watch the ending of Sidious vs Maul & Savage and cry. All Maul ever does in the storyline is fail and die.
Btw I love the fact that you think fanboyism effected Vader's role in the mythos. Darth Vader is the first Sith Lord ever written and he has never been overused like Maul. Maul has been saved by the fans far too many times.
Maul is the most inferior, irrelevant and unintelligent of Sidious' apprentices and there is nothing you can do or say to change that. Deal with it, boy.
Originally posted by SiniousShit like this, Marco? This is your doing.
All Maul ever does in the storyline is fail and die.Btw I love the fact that you think fanboyism effected Vader's role in the mythos. Darth Vader is the first Sith Lord ever written and he has never been overused like Maul. Maul has been saved by the fans far too many times.
Maul is the most inferior, irrelevant and unintelligent of Sidious' apprentices and there is nothing you can do or say to change that. Deal with it, boy.
Originally posted by SiniousVader never got played like a doll by Sidious the way Maul did.
Well he did get taken out pretty quick in the Dark Side ending to TFUII by Palpatine on Endor.
Force Lightning Blitz.
Of course that wasn't canon but as far as I know the dark side endings represent what would have happened were different decisions made.
In either case it's clear that Vader, like all of Sidious' s previous apprentices, was in no position to challenge Palpatine on his own.