My reputation for fragility is just people being stupid and mistaking any amount of emphasis and passion in my words as anger.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalmYou're trying too hard, Neph. Leave this to NemeBro.
Lol, how is this even a valid comparison? Kreia does more than just talk, and her voice acting is particularly excellent at any rate with a lot of subtlety, character and emotion, plus she actually gets to talk about interesting things. We only see "Sidious" like 4 times in the first few movies, he tells the Trade Feds to kill the Jedi, he tells them he's sending Maul, he talks to Maul for like 10 seconds and then he talks to Dooku for like 10 seconds. I wasn't criticising the character, just that he was sorely under-utilised and underplayed. He really wasn't allowed to make an impact in the first two movies imo, which is a shame because he's the character with the most life and energy in RotS.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, how is this even a valid comparison? Kreia does more than just talk, and her voice acting is particularly excellent at any rate with a lot of subtlety, character and emotion, plus she actually gets to talk about interesting things. We only see "Sidious" like 4 times in the first few movies, he tells the Trade Feds to kill the Jedi, he tells them he's sending Maul, he talks to Maul for like 10 seconds and then he talks to Dooku for like 10 seconds. I wasn't criticising the character, just that he was sorely under-utilised and underplayed. He really wasn't allowed to make an impact in the first two movies imo, which is a shame because he's the character with the most life and energy in RotS.
#trapsprung
I'm just effortlessly and with great sexual pleasure pointing out to you that it's so damn easy to caricaturize. And not just Palpatine.
You can't be counted on to discuss these things honestly or reasonably, so leave it to He Who Bested DDM. excellent
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The interesting part about Palpatine is that, rather than try to conquerthe worldthe galaxy at proverbial gunpoint, he instead manipulates those around him into surrendering absolute power. That's why I find that more interesting than your typical Tom, Sith & Harry who simply try RAWR SMASH their way into absolute power. They're boring whereas Palpatine's methods are fairly unique in mainstream cinema given his goal and actually successful.
Sure, but even that is not particularly original. Melkor from Tolkien's Legendarium, once he could no longer just RAWR SMASH everything into submission, played quite a manipulative game. Sauron even more-so, when he coolly manipulated the Numenoreans into destroying themselves and would have destroyed much of Valinor without the literal intervention of God. Sure, Palpatine is a magnificent bastard and chessmaster, but so are lots of characters. Lex Luthor for example, who battles someone who is for all intents and purposes a living god with his intelligence and the vast resources he acquired with that intelligence. He very rarely grabs for power openly, he prefers to maintain good publicity and gain power through legal means (with some backstage backstabbing). Like when he became president.
Don't get me wrong, I certainly get Palpatine's appeal and actually do enjoy quite a few of his scenes (like his forcing Maul to cry and beg for his life at his feet), but I still would say that Traya is a somewhat more original villain in Star Wars. As is Nihilus, maybe, but you might be aware of earlier cosmic horrors that were in the franchise.
Also, to be honest, your description of Sidious applies to Traya too. She certainly has the power to throw down when she needs to, like when she killed the Jedi Masters, but most of the game she is on your side and trying to manipulate the Exile into furthering her own goal (and killing Nihilus IIRC, who is a threat to her plans due to the enormity of his power and the persistence of his hunger).
Traya also demonstrates something that to my knowledge Palpatine never did. Doubt. She outright acknowledges the possibility that she is just one more in a long line of deluded Sith and that she might be a hypocrite for using a power she claims to hate. That she has this fallible persona makes her a more human character than Palpatine, who, while not actually infallible, certainly believes he is.
The accusation of bad writing or incompetence of the heroes leveled at the heroes of the PT has been consistently debunked. The reason they failed to stop Sidious is that Sidious actually played an effective game and wasn't Obviously Evil in his attempts to secure power. The prologue to AOTC illustrates this quite nicely: his private goal is to foment galactic war and yet he takes public actions to obstruct the creation of a military (he mentions trying to delay the vote for the military creation act to acommodate its opposition). In other words, he goes out of his way to give his enemies no room to suspect him, even publicly obstructing his private goals.
You know what, I'll go ahead and admit that his manipulation of the Republic is fine. 👆
It's the Jedi that are the problem. I've already mentioned how they consistently treat Anakin in the worst possible way they could, as if they were trying to give him the doubts and insecurities which led to his fall.
Palpatine didn't really break his cover here either, but his winning Anakin to his side would have been far less likely to work had the Jedi not given Anakin every reason to distrust them.
So I'd need to see examples of where their incompetence came into play because pretty much everyone Neph and co. have ever tossed my way, I have conquered utterly.
Read above.
No arguments here that the execution left something to be desired, but the actual storyline remains head and shoulders above that of any other Star Wars era.
Why, though? The subject matter is plenty interesting in of itself sure, but what ideas does the story put forth? What thought does it provoke? Overrated as Kotor 2 is as a deconstruction IMO it does have interesting ideas that generate discussion. The most discussion I've seen the prequels generate is about whether or not they are good.
BTW, I appreciate how levelheaded and reasonable you are about this. It's so easy to drive Neph to anger on this subject.
Well, like I said, I don't have a great deal of emotional attachment to the subject matter, which probably makes it easy for me to not get mad about it lol.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
#trapsprungI'm just effortlessly and with great sexual pleasure pointing out to you that it's so damn easy to caricaturize. And not just Palpatine.
You can't be counted on to discuss these things honestly or reasonably, so leave it to He Who Bested DDM. excellent
Is it really a trap when your post made no sense, I pointed out that it made made no sense and clarified what I meant and then you farcically claim you were tricking me into (gasp) actually replying to you? I wasn't caricaturize'ing Palps, I was literally describing his role in the first two movies. That's literally what he does. 😖hrug:
And unless you think I'm going to lie about whats in the movies, my honesty doesn't really have much relevance.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure, but even that is not particularly original. Melkor from Tolkien's Legendarium, once he could no longer just RAWR SMASH everything into submission, played quite a manipulative game. Sauron even more-so, when he coolly manipulated the Numenoreans into destroying themselves and would have destroyed much of Valinor without the literal intervention of God. Sure, Palpatine is a magnificent bastard and chessmaster, but so are lots of characters. Lex Luthor for example, who battles someone who is for all intents and purposes a living god with his intelligence and the vast resources he acquired with that intelligence. He very rarely grabs for power openly, he prefers to maintain good publicity and gain power through legal means (with some backstage backstabbing). Like when he became president.Don't get me wrong, I certainly get Palpatine's appeal and actually do enjoy quite a few of his scenes (like his forcing Maul to cry and beg for his life at his feet), but I still would say that Traya is a somewhat more original villain in Star Wars. As is Nihilus, maybe, but you might be aware of earlier cosmic horrors that were in the franchise.
Also, to be honest, your description of Sidious applies to Traya too. She certainly has the power to throw down when she needs to, like when she killed the Jedi Masters, but most of the game she is on your side and trying to manipulate the Exile into furthering her own goal (and killing Nihilus IIRC, who is a threat to her plans due to the enormity of his power and the persistence of his hunger).
Traya also demonstrates something that to my knowledge Palpatine never did. Doubt. She outright acknowledges the possibility that she is just one more in a long line of deluded Sith and that she might be a hypocrite for using a power she claims to hate. That she has this fallible persona makes her a more human character than Palpatine, who, while not actually infallible, certainly believes he is.
You know what, I'll go ahead and admit that his manipulation of the Republic is fine. 👆
It's the Jedi that are the problem. I've already mentioned how they consistently treat Anakin in the worst possible way they could, as if they were trying to give him the doubts and insecurities which led to his fall.
Palpatine didn't really break his cover here either, but his winning Anakin to his side would have been far less likely to work had the Jedi not given Anakin every reason to distrust them.
Read above.
Why, though? The subject matter is plenty interesting in of itself sure, but what ideas does the story put forth? What thought does it provoke? Overrated as Kotor 2 is as a deconstruction IMO it does have interesting ideas that generate discussion. The most discussion I've seen the prequels generate is about whether or not they are good.
Well, like I said, I don't have a great deal of emotional attachment to the subject matter, which probably makes it easy for me to not get mad about it lol.
Nailed it.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure, but even that is not particularly original. Melkor from Tolkien's Legendarium, once he could no longer just RAWR SMASH everything into submission, played quite a manipulative game. Sauron even more-so, when he coolly manipulated the Numenoreans into destroying themselves and would have destroyed much of Valinor without the literal intervention of God. Sure, Palpatine is a magnificent bastard and chessmaster, but so are lots of characters. Lex Luthor for example, who battles someone who is for all intents and purposes a living god with his intelligence and the vast resources he acquired with that intelligence. He very rarely grabs for power openly, he prefers to maintain good publicity and gain power through legal means (with some backstage backstabbing). Like when he became president.Don't get me wrong, I certainly get Palpatine's appeal and actually do enjoy quite a few of his scenes (like his forcing Maul to cry and beg for his life at his feet), but I still would say that Traya is a somewhat more original villain in Star Wars. As is Nihilus, maybe, but you might be aware of earlier cosmic horrors that were in the franchise.
Don't misunderstand me: I'm not claiming that Palpatine is an entirely original character. Other villains in popular culture have utilized similar methods, but few in mainstream cinema are given the same intimate exploration that Palpatine is and fewer still are actually effective. I'd say the vast majority of baddies in the science fiction/fantasy genre attempt to achieve their ends through rawr smash conquest, which doesn't do much for me given that trope's oversaturation.
Likewise, Eldritch Abominations and Treacherous Advisors aren't totally original either.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, to be honest, your description of Sidious applies to Traya too. She certainly has the power to throw down when she needs to, like when she killed the Jedi Masters, but most of the game she is on your side and trying to manipulate the Exile into furthering her own goal (and killing Nihilus IIRC, who is a threat to her plans due to the enormity of his power and the persistence of his hunger).
Sure, but I guess I found Traya's manipulations a bit more transparent given how much she telegraphs her manipulations. Traya is essentially Sidious-as-Sidious, speaking in Low Ominous Tones in a Dark Hooded Robe and essentially being Obviously Evil or at the very least Obviously Untrustworthy but Sidious-as-Palpatine is actually pretty unassuming and convincing, particularly in TPM and AOTC.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Traya also demonstrates something that to my knowledge Palpatine never did. Doubt. She outright acknowledges the possibility that she is just one more in a long line of deluded Sith and that she might be a hypocrite for using a power she claims to hate. That she has this fallible persona makes her a more human character than Palpatine, who, while not actually infallible, certainly believes he is.
Sure but then again Palpatine is both a malignant narcissist and sociopath. By his very nature, he's possessed of an enormous arrogance.
Originally posted by NemeBro
It's the Jedi that are the problem. I've already mentioned how they consistently treat Anakin in the worst possible way they could, as if they were trying to give him the doubts and insecurities which led to his fall.
The Jedi were clearly aloof and detached {in general, really} in their treatment of Anakin, but this isn't symptomatic of bad writing so much as it is a deliberate creative choice to portray the Jedi as that way. I suppose I don't see what you see by the examples you provided. The Jedi granted Anakin a seat on the Council due to external pressure from Palpatine but didn't confer the rank of Master upon him for two reasons: an F-U to Palpatine and they obviously didn't think Anakin was deserving of the title, his obvious power notwithstanding. With respect to Yoda essentially telling Anakin to "lol get over it," this is again a consistent theme: the Jedi as an institution don't tolerate attachments that could conflict to their greater devotion to the order and the Force.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Palpatine didn't really break his cover here either, but his winning Anakin to his side would have been far less likely to work had the Jedi not given Anakin every reason to distrust them.
There again, though, the Jedi really didn't do anything illogical and therefore stupid. Wrong and stupid are two different things and while I certainly agree that the Jedi failed utterly in the prequels, the logic in most of their decisions was quite sound. For example, what ultimately tipped the scales for Anakin was Mace's decision to execute Palpatine, a decision that was certainly logical given how enormously powerful Palpatine was physically and his political clout with the Republic. Mace's decision ultimately played into Palpatine's hands, but Mace himself had no way of knowing that and Mace's decision was based on sound logic.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why, though? The subject matter is plenty interesting in of itself sure, but what ideas does the story put forth? What thought does it provoke? Overrated as Kotor 2 is as a deconstruction IMO it does have interesting ideas that generate discussion. The most discussion I've seen the prequels generate is about whether or not they are good.
The prequels have provoked a great deal of commentary usually when their quality is questioned. I'd say a lot more people talk a shitton more about the prequels (even in-depth) than KotOR 2.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Well, like I said, I don't have a great deal of emotional attachment to the subject matter, which probably makes it easy for me to not get mad about it lol.
It's a gift only few of us share. We must do our part to spread it to others.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I disagree TBH. ESB was slow at times, but it was overall the best of the SW movies.I do think RotS and ESB were the two most enjoyable overall, though. (At least when it comes to re-watch-ability. Not sure if that translates into the movies actual quality.)
👆
ESB and ROTS are my 2 favorite of the saga not including ANH.
The reason I don't include ANH is simply because it's not fair to judge it now on it's rewatchabilty value compared to the others. But fact is it's the film that introduced us to the Star Wars Universe and is the most fun of all 6 movies. On that basis it's probably the best.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sure, but I guess I found Traya's manipulations a bit more transparent given how much she telegraphs her manipulations.
😬
7.40
He's fairly obvious in general.
Originally posted by Nephthys
😬7.40
He's fairly obvious in general.
😬
He really doesn't. I already explained to you how AOTC itself is a stellar example of the lengths Sidious goes to not telegraph his bids for power. Sidious wants to start the Clone Wars. For that to happen, he needs the Republic to form a military. So rather than campaign for the creation of one (as many real world politicians would), he publicly goes to great lengths to delay the vote to accommodate the opposition and reaffirms his stance in negotiation.
He needs emergency powers to create an army with the Senate in gridlock, but does he campaign or ask for them (as Hitler, a real world successful politician did)? Nope. He has his flunkies do it for him whilst he "reluctantly" accepts and vows to lay them down the second they're no longer needed.
You're not very good at this, Neph. Whether that owes to ignorance or dishonesty is unclear (likely a bit of both), but we're back to square one. Let's leave it to NemeBro or Beefy.