Originally posted by The_Tempest
I preface this by saying I enjoyed your post bunches and look forward tostriking you down for your heresydiscussing this with you.legend:
.gifs/.jpegs = gentle snark
strikedwords= moar gentle snark
red = recap
blue = your first point
purple = your secondI got halfway through a response, checked the character limit, and realized what I had required three individual posts.
With that and your reference to my characteristic prodigious length in mind, I’mma go for a more succinct version. {After all, education should be a pleasure, not a chore, and I’d rather prefer you enjoy
me effortlessly but comprehensively tearing apart your entire worldview until you’re naught but sexy red hair and tearseducating you.}So I’ll begin by saying that that’s a pretty nifty paradigm you’ve established but the only reason Palpatine isn’t successful on all fronts owes to
your obvious bias against the characteran incomplete understanding of the situation and, perhaps, an unconscious and unintended discrimination in the selection of a certain small red fruit.We should recap some critical details leading up to and including the controversial Jar Jar sequence that, while communicated fairly clearly by the film, might broaden your understanding and expedite your inevitable concession. The Jedi Council, Palpatine, and certain prominent Senators (e.g. Padmé Amidala & Bail Organa) have publicly condemned war as an outcome of the secessionist movement. Palpatine, in fact, delays the vote of the Military Creation Act to accommodate its opposition and vows to continue negotiations with Separatist leaders. Mace Windu recognizes that war might very well come anyway and cautions Palpatine that the Jedi are too few in number to adequately defend the Republic. And just prior to the scene in question, Obi-Wan Kenobi reports to the assembled Jedi and politicians on Coruscant that he’s tracked Jango Fett to Geonosis from Kamino; that Fett is in the employ of Nute Gunray and Count Dooku, implicating both in the attempt on Padmé’s life; and that various commerce guilds have pledged their allegiance to the Count and are mobilizing for war.
At this point, Bail Organa concedes that the Separatists are obviously seeking war.
PalpatineAnother senator declares that the debate is over and that the clone army on Kamino must be used, but Bail responds that “unfortunately, the debate is not over” and that the mired Senate will never approve the use of an army until after the Separatists have already struck, an opening thatPalpatineMas Amedda cleverly exploits by crying “crisis” and that Palpatine should be conferred emergency powers to sidestep this controversial act of legislation and unilaterally establish a formal army. Palpatine remarks that such a proposition would be “radical” and require “courage”;PalpatineMas Amedda sadly alludes that Padmé herself would do it if she were present.In objection to this scene, you raise two complaints: that Jar Jar would not easily defy the wishes of the Jedi Council and that Padmé, whose stance on central executive authority is fairly conservative, would never actually propose such an amendment.
The problem is that, at this stage in the game, Obi-Wan’s report has silenced an otherwise vocal opposition among Bail and the Jedi Council, all of whom were placing their faith in a diplomatic resolution—which has clearly failed given that the secessionists are priming for war. At no point after Obi-Wan’s report does a member of the Jedi Council or the assembled Senate opposition voice open objection to the utilization of the clone army because they realize that the game has changed irreversibly. In other words, there’s nothing for Jar Jar to defy because Palpatine has secretly worked the scenario so that all of his enemies are backed into a corner. Equipped with intelligence that the secessionists have organized, are backed by vast droid armies of powerful commerce guilds, and have threatened war, they’d have to be utter morons to not take measures to defend themselves.
Thus the narrative required the Good Guys to be Smart & Logical, making the Bad Guy who set the whole thing up Even Smarter & Moar Logical, and the writing in general Smarter & Moar Logical Still.
With respect to your second complaint, Padmé’s allegiance to the Greater Good {as she defines it} trumps specific ideology, loyalty, or political agenda. Recall in Episode 1, she hesitates to dethrone Valorum because he’s been Naboo’s “strongest supporter” until she sees that she really has no other option and then Valorum is out with the day’s trash. Or even again in Episode 1, her sense of pacifism initially prompts her to declare that she “will not condone a course of action that leads to war” and yet, by the film’s climax when she realizes that her pacifism is allowing the TradeFed to oppress her people unchecked and no one else is going to do anything about it, she’s rallying troops to her cause and invading her own palace, kicking ass and taking names and holding dudes at gunpoint to achieve her ends.
In other words, she’s had a history within the films of setting such things aside for what she feels needed to be done. It’s not a stretch at all to assume that she’d do a 180 on the Military Creation Act if the alternative is the Separatists beating a defenseless Republic into submission. Jar Jar, who was with her during the aforementioned events, knows this about her. Palpatine, who knows this about her and knows that Jar Jar also knows this about her, exploits this to achieve his ends.
So whilst you’re more than welcome to object to
PalpatineMas Amedda’s delivery of certain lines or even the lines themselves in that scene—each subjective issues—your criticism of the story’s logic vis a vis this particular scene has no weight.I challenge you to do so at your earliest convenience; I'm honestly not sure you can.
Your hang-up, across six films and [b]fifteen years worth of other source material
, has been thus far has been limited to one scene that, when moved beyond cursory examination and predisposition, actually works just fine. {Your totally legitimate but subjective(!) beef with line choices & delivery notwithstanding.}Your insinuation that Kreia is as or more effective than Sidious as a manipulator is intriguing but only in that you declare it in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary. I’m not sure how one can ascribe superiority in the realm of manipulation other than by the scope, depth, and success of the manipulations themselves and Sidious enjoys a vast and titanic advantage in all three realms of consideration.
But perhaps you mean to suggest that you personally found Kreia to be more convincing than Sidious—another subjective issue. And were I confined to certain portrayals of His Imperial Majesty {such as Episode 6}, I might more readily see your perspective. But as it stands for me, Kreia is a Dark & Mysterious Woman who wears Dark Hooded Robes and speaks in characteristic Ominous and Sinister Tones who isn’t really particularly Affable or Nice. Essentially, she’s Sidious as we were introduced to him back in the early ‘80s or Sidious-as-Sidious and there's very little reason whatsoever to trust her in that guise. Despite what popular culture might tell us, realistic successful manipulators are generally successful because they conceal their natures and exude trustworthiness. {Barring outright threats or blackmail.} That’s why George went to great lengths to portray Sidious-as-Palpatine as an affable, unassuming guy who never asked for great power and who went to great lengths to secure power in roundabout ways rather than a linear fashion where people in-universe and out- could then turn and point and say “HEY, THAT GUY IS TOTES EVIL & AMBITIOUS!”
Sidious-as-Sidious is another matter and, in his guise as the Dark Lord, Sidious typically uses more linear tactics: blackmail, threats, torture, etc. But Kreia is just as charming and trustworthy {which is to say, not at all} and so her effectiveness is contrived imo.
There’s a lot to critique about Star Wars and the prequels, but Palpatine’s rise to power and his methods aren’t one of them. [/B]
Oh, stop. You read every bit of it, Neph. Don't lie.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I preface this by saying I enjoyed your post bunches and look forward tostriking you down for your heresydiscussing this with you.legend:
.gifs/.jpegs = gentle snark
strikedwords= moar gentle snark
red = recap
blue = your first point
purple = your secondI got halfway through a response, checked the character limit, and realized what I had required three individual posts.
With that and your reference to my characteristic prodigious length in mind, I’mma go for a more succinct version. {After all, education should be a pleasure, not a chore, and I’d rather prefer you enjoy
me effortlessly but comprehensively tearing apart your entire worldview until you’re naught but sexy red hair and tearseducating you.}So I’ll begin by saying that that’s a pretty nifty paradigm you’ve established but the only reason Palpatine isn’t successful on all fronts owes to
your obvious bias against the characteran incomplete understanding of the situation and, perhaps, an unconscious and unintended discrimination in the selection of a certain small red fruit.We should recap some critical details leading up to and including the controversial Jar Jar sequence that, while communicated fairly clearly by the film, might broaden your understanding and expedite your inevitable concession. The Jedi Council, Palpatine, and certain prominent Senators (e.g. Padmé Amidala & Bail Organa) have publicly condemned war as an outcome of the secessionist movement. Palpatine, in fact, delays the vote of the Military Creation Act to accommodate its opposition and vows to continue negotiations with Separatist leaders. Mace Windu recognizes that war might very well come anyway and cautions Palpatine that the Jedi are too few in number to adequately defend the Republic. And just prior to the scene in question, Obi-Wan Kenobi reports to the assembled Jedi and politicians on Coruscant that he’s tracked Jango Fett to Geonosis from Kamino; that Fett is in the employ of Nute Gunray and Count Dooku, implicating both in the attempt on Padmé’s life; and that various commerce guilds have pledged their allegiance to the Count and are mobilizing for war.
At this point, Bail Organa concedes that the Separatists are obviously seeking war.
PalpatineAnother senator declares that the debate is over and that the clone army on Kamino must be used, but Bail responds that “unfortunately, the debate is not over” and that the mired Senate will never approve the use of an army until after the Separatists have already struck, an opening thatPalpatineMas Amedda cleverly exploits by crying “crisis” and that Palpatine should be conferred emergency powers to sidestep this controversial act of legislation and unilaterally establish a formal army. Palpatine remarks that such a proposition would be “radical” and require “courage”;PalpatineMas Amedda sadly alludes that Padmé herself would do it if she were present.In objection to this scene, you raise two complaints: that Jar Jar would not easily defy the wishes of the Jedi Council and that Padmé, whose stance on central executive authority is fairly conservative, would never actually propose such an amendment.
The problem is that, at this stage in the game, Obi-Wan’s report has silenced an otherwise vocal opposition among Bail and the Jedi Council, all of whom were placing their faith in a diplomatic resolution—which has clearly failed given that the secessionists are priming for war. At no point after Obi-Wan’s report does a member of the Jedi Council or the assembled Senate opposition voice open objection to the utilization of the clone army because they realize that the game has changed irreversibly. In other words, there’s nothing for Jar Jar to defy because Palpatine has secretly worked the scenario so that all of his enemies are backed into a corner. Equipped with intelligence that the secessionists have organized, are backed by vast droid armies of powerful commerce guilds, and have threatened war, they’d have to be utter morons to not take measures to defend themselves.
Thus the narrative required the Good Guys to be Smart & Logical, making the Bad Guy who set the whole thing up Even Smarter & Moar Logical, and the writing in general Smarter & Moar Logical Still.
With respect to your second complaint, Padmé’s allegiance to the Greater Good {as she defines it} trumps specific ideology, loyalty, or political agenda. Recall in Episode 1, she hesitates to dethrone Valorum because he’s been Naboo’s “strongest supporter” until she sees that she really has no other option and then Valorum is out with the day’s trash. Or even again in Episode 1, her sense of pacifism initially prompts her to declare that she “will not condone a course of action that leads to war” and yet, by the film’s climax when she realizes that her pacifism is allowing the TradeFed to oppress her people unchecked and no one else is going to do anything about it, she’s rallying troops to her cause and invading her own palace, kicking ass and taking names and holding dudes at gunpoint to achieve her ends.
In other words, she’s had a history within the films of setting such things aside for what she feels needed to be done. It’s not a stretch at all to assume that she’d do a 180 on the Military Creation Act if the alternative is the Separatists beating a defenseless Republic into submission. Jar Jar, who was with her during the aforementioned events, knows this about her. Palpatine, who knows this about her and knows that Jar Jar also knows this about her, exploits this to achieve his ends.
So whilst you’re more than welcome to object to
PalpatineMas Amedda’s delivery of certain lines or even the lines themselves in that scene—each subjective issues—your criticism of the story’s logic vis a vis this particular scene has no weight.I challenge you to do so at your earliest convenience; I'm honestly not sure you can.
Your hang-up, across six films and [b]fifteen years worth of other source material
, has been thus far has been limited to one scene that, when moved beyond cursory examination and predisposition, actually works just fine. {Your totally legitimate but subjective(!) beef with line choices & delivery notwithstanding.}Your insinuation that Kreia is as or more effective than Sidious as a manipulator is intriguing but only in that you declare it in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary. I’m not sure how one can ascribe superiority in the realm of manipulation other than by the scope, depth, and success of the manipulations themselves and Sidious enjoys a vast and titanic advantage in all three realms of consideration.
But perhaps you mean to suggest that you personally found Kreia to be more convincing than Sidious—another subjective issue. And were I confined to certain portrayals of His Imperial Majesty {such as Episode 6}, I might more readily see your perspective. But as it stands for me, Kreia is a Dark & Mysterious Woman who wears Dark Hooded Robes and speaks in characteristic Ominous and Sinister Tones who isn’t really particularly Affable or Nice. Essentially, she’s Sidious as we were introduced to him back in the early ‘80s or Sidious-as-Sidious and there's very little reason whatsoever to trust her in that guise. Despite what popular culture might tell us, realistic successful manipulators are generally successful because they conceal their natures and exude trustworthiness. {Barring outright threats or blackmail.} That’s why George went to great lengths to portray Sidious-as-Palpatine as an affable, unassuming guy who never asked for great power and who went to great lengths to secure power in roundabout ways rather than a linear fashion where people in-universe and out- could then turn and point and say “HEY, THAT GUY IS TOTES EVIL & AMBITIOUS!”
Sidious-as-Sidious is another matter and, in his guise as the Dark Lord, Sidious typically uses more linear tactics: blackmail, threats, torture, etc. But Kreia is just as charming and trustworthy {which is to say, not at all} and so her effectiveness is contrived imo.
There’s a lot to critique about Star Wars and the prequels, but Palpatine’s rise to power and his methods aren’t one of them. [/B]
Excellent post. A lot of these points highlight reasons why I have always argued against the notion that Yoda was responsible for the war and the jedi order's downfall despite the fact that there were situations he could have handled better, but that's with any fallible character.