Originally posted by ILS
It's not a stomp either way, but the team definitely wins a majority. Maul can take something like three wins.I'm kind of baffled at the preconceived notions people have about Ventress and RotJ Luke. They barely get the respect they deserve on here.
I actually have a very high opinion of Ventress putting her above the vast majority of Council Members and approx on par with Opress (even though he beat her when they fought).
But she's simply not on the same level as SOD Maul. Not at all.
As for ROTJ Luke, it's not really that baffling. It's Lucas who first put it out there in the DVD commentary for ROTJ, that Luke wasn't a match for Vader yet, and that his training was in fact incomplete.
Then there's the opinion of Filoni, a creator of the 2nd highest level of canon, whose lived and breathed SW first hand through Lucas for the past several years, who actually goes to the extreme of thinking that any PT Council member would trash ROTJ Luke.
So given all that, whether you agree or not, you can't honestly blame anyone for putting ROTJ Luke below the likes of Maul/Vader/Dooku when Lucas has pretty much flat out said ROTJ Vader > ROTJ Luke.
And I don't even see the need to place ROTJ Luke so high, not even for the greatest Luke fans given we all know he's destined to become the most powerful Jedi ever Post-ROTJ.
Originally posted by ILS
It's not a stomp either way
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Ventress did quite well against Maul when they fought, kicking him around in both exchanges compared to him getting nothing on her. I'd suggest that Quinlan is basically superfluous but I think he may annoy Maul enough for them to contend with him.
TCW Vos obviously doesn't hold a candle to how he's been shown in the comics, I thought people knew that.
Getting stomped by Kolar isn't a detriment to Vos - it's a feat for Kolar. Outside of that instance Vos has decent dueling feats, and after he improved enough to contend with Sora Bulq (reaching his prime) he should be enough to at least challenge Maul as much as Qui-Gon Jinn did.
Sure it's a feat for Kolar. But Kolar is still firmly below Ventress and Maul. So either would likely stomp him regardless of his supposed improvement. Which I've heard isn't actually that much, and that "contending with Sora Bulq" translated into "got stomped by Sora Bulq and caught him off-guard".
le sigh*
1. Kolar stomping Vos puts him close to Maul or Ventress.
2. He contended with Bulq in the dueling portion of their fight, but got thrown around with TK which is no detriment to his skill. Catching him off-guard has no bearing on the point of the fight where Vos did well.
And Vos has other feats of dueling skill outside of the Bulq fight to suggest he's better than a non-factor. I'm probably arguing with the wrong person, though. Doesn't seem like you're going to change your view on him any time soon.
1. But below. And firmly below with the Force.
2. Not getting stomped by Bulq doesn't imply he's equal to him or that he was doing well. I saw the fight and he seemed on the defensive the whole time.
And he also has feats like getting stomped by Cad Bane that suggests he's out of his league. However, if you'll look at what I actually said, I actually said he wouldn't be a non-factor and may be just enough to make the team a competitive force. Also you seem to give up on debating me super easily.
1. Yes, slightly below. The Force has no bearing on his dueling outside of perhaps a slight effect on his general clairvoyance and physical stats.
2.What implies he did well is the fact he did well. They duel on-panel for a while and then they continue to duel off-panel. Bulq is winning, but he isn't outright stomping Vos otherwise Vos would have been dead before the duel had gone on for several minutes.
If you really think TCW Vos has any bearing on his main source material - Republic comics - then we have nothing else to talk about. I mean come the **** on, people, I could cite any number of feats to suggest that Cad Bane would be a smear on the pavement against comics Vos.
3. I stop debating you because of how.... different... your views are to mine in general. I don't discuss stuff with people I don't make progress with, unfortunately, and you're always extremely set in your ways, so I leave you to it.