Asajj Ventress/Quinlan Vos vs. Darth Maul (SOD)

Originally posted by ILS
Quotes, DP?

I've posted them many times in the past, but will have to wait until I get home now to quote the ROTJ commentary one exactly how it's said.

But I've told you the source itself as evidence. The exact scene in the commentary is when Luke visits Yoda on Dagobah.

I'm pretty surprised you never looked up Lucas's thoughts on this considering how much you complain about people apparently "lowballing" Rotj Luke.

In the meantime here's Filoni's opinion:

"And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt. He had a lot of heart though, right? He had a lot going for him. And almost it was what he didn't know that made him really dangerous to the Emperor, it's just love for his father -- but he wasn't going to take you out with his lightsaber skills, that was for sure."

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4

Originally posted by ILS
1. Yes, slightly below. The Force has no bearing on his dueling outside of perhaps a slight effect on his general clairvoyance and physical stats.

2.What implies he did well is the fact he did well. They duel on-panel for a while and then they continue to duel off-panel. Bulq is winning, but he isn't outright stomping Vos otherwise Vos would have been dead before the duel had gone on for several minutes.

If you really think TCW Vos has any bearing on his main source material - Republic comics - then we have nothing else to talk about. I mean come the **** on, people, I could cite any number of feats to suggest that Cad Bane would be a smear on the pavement against comics Vos.

3. I stop debating you because of how.... different... your views are to mine in general. I don't discuss stuff with people I don't make progress with, unfortunately, and you're always extremely set in your ways, so I leave you to it.

1. This isn't just a lightsaber duel though. Maul can pwn Vos rather easily with the Force.

2. Surviving isn't really the same as doing well. I just don't see how Vos not getting stomped by Bulq suggests he can contend in a fight against the likes of Ventress or Maul.

Dude, you can't just ignore that showing. It happened, and it happened in a higher level of canon than Vos' other feats to boot.

3. I find that very intolerant and sad. You have made me sad this day, my friend.

Originally posted by Nephthys
👆

Ventress did quite well against Maul when they fought, kicking him around in both exchanges compared to him getting nothing on her.

Which hardly means much considering Maul had just been revived. We know outright he grew massively more powerful by the very next episode, let alone by SOD.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Dude, you can't just ignore that showing. It happened, and it happened in a higher level of canon than Vos' other feats to boot.

ILS generally doesn't count TCW as evidence, even when discussing some CW versions of characters like SOD Maul here.

1. This isn't just a lightsaber duel though. Maul can pwn Vos rather easily with the Force.

2. Surviving isn't really the same as doing well. I just don't see how Vos not getting stomped by Bulq suggests he can contend in a fight against the likes of Ventress or Maul.

Dude, you can't just ignore that showing. It happened, and it happened in a higher level of canon than Vos' other feats to boot.

You can look at it that way, or you can just say that it's a feat for Cad Bane, and move on. I don't really care, either way.

And let's face it, if Bane appeared in canon and got stomped by a random bounty hunter, and carthage used it against you in a debate, you would lose your shit utterly and completely because your favourite character's best showings are being overruled by one retarded fight from an animation.

3. I find that very intolerant and sad. You have made me sad this day, my friend.

DP- Filoni has once again shown a complete lack of knowledge on Luke, lol.

Luke is as good as Vader as a duelist because of his Force potential. Experience level is of no consequence to him. This has been documented repeatedly over the years, and I'm once again not throwing it out the window for some terrible opinion coming from the joker who unfortunately got free reign to shit on character history with his "opinions", which are poorly informed to begin with.

Shit I'm on fire today. I might go buy a copy of TCW dvd and snap it in half for no reason.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which hardly means much considering Maul had just been revived. We know outright he grew massively more powerful by the very next episode, let alone by SOD.

He gets massively more powerful....... and then performs worse against Kenobi than he did before?

Okaaaaaay......

Originally posted by Nephthys
He gets massively more powerful....... and then performs worse against Kenobi than he did before?

Okaaaaaay......

Originally posted by Nephthys
He gets massively more powerful....... and then performs worse against Kenobi than he did before?

Okaaaaaay......

It was Kenobi who performed better, not Maul who performed worse.

Although Maul's size did restrict his own mobility on that Cave.

In any case SOD Maul is Peak Maul.

And let's face it, if Bane appeared in canon and got stomped by a random bounty hunter, and carthage used it against you in a debate, you would lose your shit utterly and completely because your favourite character's best showings are being overruled by one retarded fight from an animation.

Bane got his ass kicked by mercenaries and nearly died and got exhausted fighting Sithspawn lmao

Originally posted by Nephthys
👆

Ventress did quite well against Maul when they fought, kicking him around in both exchanges compared to him getting nothing on her. I'd suggest that Quinlan is basically superfluous but I think he may annoy Maul enough for them to contend with him.

Wait...when did Maul and Ventress fight?

Revenge. Obi-Wan and Ventress switch opponents twice and they fight briefly.

Originally posted by ILS
DP- Filoni has once again shown a complete lack of knowledge on Luke, lol.

Luke is as good as Vader as a duelist because of his Force potential. Experience level is of no consequence to him. This has been documented repeatedly over the years, and I'm once again not throwing it out the window for some terrible opinion coming from the joker who unfortunately got free reign to shit on character history with his "opinions", which are poorly informed to begin with.

Shit I'm on fire today. I might go buy a copy of TCW dvd and snap it in half for no reason.

Does Lucas know nothing about Luke as well?

According to Lucas, Luke is not a match for Vader as of ROTJ:

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary. Scene where Luke visits Yoda.

Now of course Lucas doesn't differentiate between Sabers, Force and All-Out. So you could still argue Luke matched Vader in Sabers but Vader held back with his Tk.

But as far as an All-Out is concerned, Lucas has made it quite clear that Luke's training was too Limited for him to truly be a match for Vader at this point.

That actually sounds like a description of the ESB fight.

"In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father"

Wasn't that what happened in the ESB fight?

"He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

Isn't this referring to when Luke doesn't finish his training with Yoda and goes off to fight Vader in order to save Leia ect?

Originally posted by ILS
That actually sounds like a description of the ESB fight.

"In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father"

Wasn't that what happened in the ESB fight?

"He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

Isn't this referring to when Luke doesn't finish his training with Yoda and goes off to fight Vader in order to save Leia ect?

No, it's in the "Return of the Jedi" commentary in the scene where Luke visits Yoda. In fact the first line is "In coming back to see Yoda."

I don't just hate on Luke for the sake of it. Luke's one of my favorite characters. But Lucas has made that pretty clear there. I think the confusion comes because Lucas has kind of revamped things since the Prequels. It seems his Original intention was to have Luke being a match Vader, but then he established this idea in the prequels of needing full on training for years with a Master.

The thing is though, Lucas doesn't explicitly state that Luke couldn't match Vader. He said that going into the fight, Luke wasn't equipped to defeat Vader.

But then, despite his inexperience, he did fight on even ground with Vader. And the reason for that, which has been explained already, is because of his inherent potential, which allowed him to nigh-instantaneously mirror Vader's form.

Originally posted by ILS
--he didn't improve in dueling skill--

Shadow Conspiracy implies otherwise, bro. That said, his most major gains were force-related, yeah.

The only time it's been explicitly stated that his lightsaber skill increased was when Jason Fry confirmed to Marco that Maul increased "in general". I can subscribe to this in terms of Force power, yes, and Force augmentation because that is linked to power.

But lightsaber skill? He was out of practice in terrible conditions for a decade, and received no further training. There's no reason whatsoever for him to be more skilled, and he has no feats which are superior to comfortably outfighting Jinn and Kenobi simultaneously.

He did receive further training, though, at the Sith Academy on Umbra. It's from a video game, but is also mentioned in Shadow Conspiracy.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Does Lucas know nothing about Luke as well?

According to Lucas, Luke is not a match for Vader as of ROTJ:

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary. Scene where Luke visits Yoda.

Now of course Lucas doesn't differentiate between Sabers, Force and All-Out. So you could still argue Luke matched Vader in Sabers but Vader held back with his Tk.

But as far as an All-Out is concerned, Lucas has made it quite clear that Luke's training was too Limited for him to truly be a match for Vader at this point.