Greatest Battle Mediator in the Mythos?

Originally posted by Selenial
Mediator?

Coleman Trebor.

👆 x100

T'ra Saa was extremely good in Legacy. She controlled the precise flow of a multi-sided battle and even accounted for powerful enemy reinforcements, allowing most of her sides' forces to escape from a deadly trap by an overwhelming enemy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Palpatine's death in ROTJ apparently unraveled the entire Empire proper: {from the novel} "For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this is simply where it led. Confusion. Desperation. Damp fear.”

Ooh, and Palpatine's death "diffused" the dark side. Forgot all about that.

I don't think that's battle meditation, though. He set up the very structure of the Empire- the political structure- to be reliant on a Sith at the core. No-one had enough power to take his place save for potentially his apprentice, and that was purposeful from day one.

Force power was sometimes involved, but much was simple political setup molded to be that way.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Sidious is apparently capable of Force Multitasking. His Battle Meditation was in fact active through the entire 2nd Death Star confrontation, and the Empire was winning right up till he bought it...then the Empire's troops fell apart.

There was a Grand Admiral on the Death Star doing battle meditation.

While Sidious has done very large scale force acts, he wasn't directing the flow of the battle that time.

Eh? When did they throw a random force sensitive grand admiral in the mix?

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Eh? When did they throw a random force sensitive grand admiral in the mix?

Grand Admiral Nial Declann

In a Who's Who of Grand Admirals as the first mention.

The original book only had Thrawn speculating that Palpatine had some sway over the fleet, and perhaps Sidious had done some magic on various commanders to reinforce loyalty or something too, but Thrawn didn't know the full details of the battle, such as the ones directly running the conflict from the DS2.

Q99
I don't think that's battle meditation, though. He set up the very structure of the Empire- the political structure- to be reliant on a Sith at the core. No-one had enough power to take his place save for potentially his apprentice, and that was purposeful from day one.

Force power was sometimes involved, but much was simple political setup molded to be that way.

The excerpt very specifically mentions the dark side, Q. There's no getting around it.

That the darkside was diffused and undirected, leading it to cause fear and confusion. That does not necessarily mean that before then it lead to order.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That the darkside was diffused and undirected, leading it to cause fear and confusion. That does not necessarily mean that before then it lead to order.

facepalm

Pretty sure that's what "cohesive force" means.

Palpatine = cohesive force to the Empire

Palpatine = dead

Dead Palpatine = chaotic Empire

All of which is supported by the excerpt. There's no getting around it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The excerpt very specifically mentions the dark side, Q. There's no getting around it.

So? That doesn't change that it was politically set up to rely on a central Sith leader, and doesn't mean he was doing a giant battle meditation type thing.

Originally posted by Q99
So? That doesn't change that it was politically set up to rely on a central Sith leader, and doesn't mean he was doing a giant battle meditation type thing.

:/

The excerpt clearly emphasizes the Force with nary a single mention of politics. Your desperate handwaving doesn't change that one iota.

Palpatine's influence over the Empire clearly transcended mundane politics. Deal with it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

The excerpt clearly emphasizes the Force with nary a single mention of politics. Your desperate handwaving doesn't change that one iota.

Handwaving? The political setup of the Empire is fairly well established, and that there really was no good way for anyone to establish their power easily once Sidious and Vader vanished.

Palpatine's influence over the Empire clearly transcended mundane politics. Deal with it.

Yes, I did mention he likely used dark side influence over many major figures in it. And 'designed to be ruled by a Sith' hardly implies things are 100% mundane, though mundane certainly play a role. And keep in mind, the force flows through all things. An organization that is following the ways of the dark side doesn't require specific powers.

It's just there's no mention of him being constantly doing a battle meditation style ability like some here are trying to imply, and nor do I think it slightly necessary to act as it did.

Well reasoned, Q99.

Palpatine's dominion over his Empire was similar to that of Emperor's dominion over his Empire much earlier in history. In absence of both, their Empires began to fracture from within.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Pretty sure that's what "cohesive force" means.

Palpatine = cohesive force to the Empire

Palpatine = dead

Dead Palpatine = chaotic Empire

All of which is supported by the excerpt. There's no getting around it.

Palpatine being the cohesive force for the empire, being the ****ing Emperor with no successor, is a no shit point of contention. That he was a cohesive force because of the darkside is something you're pulling out of your ass with a biased interpretation.

This evidence isn't nearly solid enough to suggest galaxy wide battle meditation and you know it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Palpatine being the cohesive force for the empire, being the ****ing Emperor with no successor, is a no shit point of contention. That he was a cohesive force because of the darkside is something you're pulling out of your ass with a biased interpretation.

This evidence isn't nearly solid enough to suggest galaxy wide battle meditation and you know it.

U mad?

A man whose profound bias has made him legendary for his double standards lobbing that word around for no reason is enough to elicit a hearty chuckle. I chuckled, heartily, Neph.

It's also peculiar that that same man, who allegedly went to university for English and writing, demonstrates a staggering ignorance of both when the situation calls for it.

It's all there in the excerpt, my son. No reference to the political design of the Empire, no reference to a lack of constitutional mechanism to designate a successor, only a clear and exact reference to the dark side.

You lose. 👆

Q99
Handwaving? The political setup of the Empire is fairly well established, and that there really was no good way for anyone to establish their power easily once Sidious and Vader vanished.

Q, I'm... well aware of this.

Q99
Yes, I did mention he likely used dark side influence over many major figures in it. And 'designed to be ruled by a Sith' hardly implies things are 100% mundane, though mundane certainly play a role. And keep in mind, the force flows through all things. An organization that is following the ways of the dark side doesn't require specific powers.

It's just there's no mention of him being constantly doing a battle meditation style ability like some here are trying to imply, and nor do I think it slightly necessary to act as it did.

The excerpt makes it quite clear, though, that Palpatine as a director of the dark side was what provided cohesiveness and order among his servants. Declann's presence doesn't contradict the ROTJ novel or Thrawn's subsequent observations of it. Absent that cohesive presence, the Empire fractured. As much as you and Neph wish otherwise, the dark side is clearly mentioned whereas politics aren't.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's all there in the excerpt, my son. No reference to the political design of the Empire, no reference to a lack of constitutional mechanism to designate a successor, only a clear and exact reference to the dark side.

Only that the darkside being unfocused led to chaos. The excerpt says that the central force of the Empire was gone and that the darkside being unfocused and diffused was leading to fear and confusion. The novel also makes it clear that the general confusion was actually incited by the damage to the Death Star which lead to reactor meltdowns and mass hysteria. The factors were threefold, the sudden death of the Emperor, the mass damage and shitstorm brewing and that the darkside had been diffused by Palpatine's death. The last one doesn't need to be caused by a lack of battle meditation, Palpatine had made himself the linchpin for the darkside in the galaxy. The place where he died would cause a nexus to form from his explosively released energies. It only makes sense that his death would cause these issues, as large amounts of darkside energy is known to do.

As Q99 has already proved, Palpatine wasn't even using battle meditation in that battle, it was Declann.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only that the darkside being unfocused led to chaos. The excerpt says that the central force of the Empire was gone [b]and that the darkside being unfocused and diffused was leading to fear and confusion. The novel also makes it clear that the general confusion was actually incited by the damage to the Death Star which lead to reactor meltdowns and mass hysteria. The factors were threefold, the sudden death of the Emperor, the mass damage and shitstorm brewing and that the darkside had been diffused by Palpatine's death. The last one doesn't need to be caused by a lack of battle meditation, Palpatine had made himself the linchpin for the darkside in the galaxy. The place where he died would cause a nexus to form from his explosively released energies. It only makes sense that his death would cause these issues, as large amounts of darkside energy is known to do.

As Q99 has already proved, Palpatine wasn't even using battle meditation in that battle, it was Declann. [/B]

No.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook
Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire
couldn’t last without his dread power: he had
designed it that way. No one ever suspected how
much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He
shaped those of his government by using the Force
against them. He used it to control his fleets and
to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to
destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of
conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no
way the Empire could endure, as he had designed
it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some
primordial ichor and was the key to all his power.

Palpatine clearly exerted tremendous dark side influence over the Empire in an unprecedented scale. He's awesome like that.

Nephthys
Palpatine had made himself the linchpin for the darkside in the galaxy.

This does please me, though. 😄

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No.

Palpatine clearly exerted tremendous dark side influence over the Empire in an unprecedented scale. He's awesome like that.

This does please me, though. 😄

None of which suggests galaxy wide battle meditation. Obviously battle meditation is indicated in the part about his fleets and soldiers, but we already know he actually used other's for that purpose, at least in the case of the Battle of Endor. Which kind of makes this whole argument pointless. Palpatine's death wouldn't take away battle meditation directly.

Shaping those in government implies telepathy. Destroying enemies from a distance and learning of conspiracies implies sorcery and farsight. Not battle meditation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of which suggests galaxy wide battle meditation. Obviously battle meditation is indicated in the part about his fleets and soldiers

Nothing suggests battle meditation except the part that does? mmm

You're silly.

I was going to say Bastila, but I had no idea about Palpatine. Jumping on the bandwagon.

Silly is suggesting Palpatine was holding the Empire together with galaxy-wide battle meditation simply because of the mention of the darkside.

Silly would also be suggesting that Palpatine's death unraveled the "entire" Empire and then posting a quote solely talking about the Battle of Endor.