Nephthys
Silly is suggesting Palpatine was holding the Empire together with galaxy-wide battle meditation simply because of the mention of the darkside.Silly would also be suggesting that Palpatine's death unraveled the "entire" Empire and then posting a quote solely talking about the Battle of Endor.
I post two excerpts that cite Palpatine's use of the dark side as being a primary source of cohesion for the Empire and you flagrantly disregard them. You're a dishonest poopoo head who is shameless in his use of double standardssilly. he
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I was going to say Bastila, but I had no idea about Palpatine. Jumping on the bandwagon.
Originally posted by ares834
Well, Palpatine's death did unravel the Empire. Head of the snake an all that. But yeah, really not seeing any reason to believe he was holding it together because of galaxy wide BM.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I post two excerpts that cite Palpatine's use of the dark side as being a primary source of cohesion for the Empire and you flagrantly disregard them. You'rea dishonest poopoo head who is shameless in his use of double standardssilly. he
No, I accepted them. I merely offered a different interpretation than you that isn't quite as insane as yours and perfectly fits the facts.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I accepted them. I merely offered a different interpretation than you that isn't quite as insane as yours and perfectly fits the facts.
Nah. You and Q were crying "politics, politics, politics!" until I forced you both to concede that Palpatine used the dark side. Now it's just a matter of time until you concede the rest.
You'll bend or you'll break, but the outcome is inevitable: I win.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. You and Q were crying "politics, politics, politics!" until I forced you both to concede that Palpatine used the dark side. Now it's just a matter of time until you concede the rest.You'll bend or you'll break, but the outcome is inevitable: I win.
Q and I didn't concede anything. Both of us believed that Palpatine likely did use the Force to help him rule before you pulled out the second quote. It has nothing to do with the first one nor does it establish your absurd concept of galaxy wide BM. It's still referring to Palpatine's loss as the leader of the Empire as well as the diffusal of the darkside leading to fear and panic. You still only have a shoddy interpretation of a vague quote as your support.
As I pointed out, your original quote was merely describing the panic during the Battle of Endor. Not anything related to galaxy-wide chaos. The second quote establishes Palpatine using a number of Force powers to help his rule. Battle Meditation was one of them, but as has been established it's known that Palpatine used people such as Declann for that. Why would he need to use that man if he could perform galaxy wide BM?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Q and I didn't concede anything. Both of us believed that Palpatine likely did use the Force to help him rule before you pulled out the second quote. It has nothing to do with the first one nor does it establish your absurd concept of galaxy wide BM. It's still referring to Palpatine's loss as the leader of the Empire as well as the diffusal of the darkside leading to fear and panic. You still only have a shoddy interpretation of a vague quote as your support.
The first quote proclaims Sheev as the central cohesive force to the Empire {not just the dudes at Endor} and that, with his death, the dark side was diffused and lead to rapid fragmentation of Imperial forces. The second quote corroborates it by Palpatine using the Force to influence fleets and soldiers and governments and from a distance at that.
You backpedaled from politics to the Force as I predicted.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As I pointed out, your original quote was merely describing the panic during the Battle of Endor. Not anything related to galaxy-wide chaos. The second quote establishes Palpatine using a number of Force powers to help his rule. Battle Meditation was one of them, but as has been established it's known that Palpatine used people such as Declann for that. Why would he need to use that man if he could perform galaxy wide BM?
facepalm
Why would Palpatine employ guards if he can defend himself? Or Vitiate for that matter? Redundancy, bro. And no one said he was doing it 24/7.
You're silly. Sheev owns this thread as utterly as I own you and Q. Which is to say, utterly.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The first quote proclaims Sheev as the central cohesive force to the Empire {not just the dudes at Endor} and that, with his death, the dark side was diffused and lead to rapid fragmentation of Imperial forces.
Which has nothing implying battle meditation. 😐
And that it says the Empire doesn't matter because the excerpt is solely describing the effects on the Imperials at Endor.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The second quote corroborates it by Palpatine using the Force to influence fleets and soldiers
Yes. By ordering other people to perform Battle Meditation. As we know he did. 😐
And if he did use BM to aid his military, that still does not mean he did so across the entire galaxy at all times. That is a ridiculous extrapolation.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
and governments and from a distance at that.
Which has nothing to do with Battle Meditation. 😐
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You backpedaled from politics to the Force as I predicted.
I didn't suggest politics. I suggested Palpatine's death caused chaos because he was the person in charge of everything and when the person in charge of everything dies with no one to step up through the chain of command then there's chaos. His death is also obviously a severe detriment to morale.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalmWhy would Palpatine employ guards if he can defend himself? Or Vitiate for that matter? Redundancy, bro. And no one said he was doing it 24/7.
You're silly. Sheev owns this thread as utterly as I own you and Q. Which is to say, utterly.
Except the man was doing it in the very battle you're trying to establish as the basis for galaxy wide BM. Try to actually think this through, Tempest. You're claiming that Palpatine's death in the Battle of Endor caused mass chaos because he was no longer performing his BM. Except he was having someone else perform BM in that battle. So if he's not using Battle Meditation then why would his death cause chaos by a lack of Battle Meditation? 😬
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which has nothing implying battle meditation. 😐And that it says the Empire doesn't matter because the excerpt is solely describing the effects on the Imperials at Endor.
Nah. It says Palpatine was the cohesive agent to the Empire, not just the Imperials at Endor.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. By ordering other people to perform Battle Meditation. As we know he did. 😐And if he did use BM to aid his military, that still does not mean he did so across the entire galaxy at all times. That is a ridiculous extrapolation.
Except that excerpt makes no reference to him employing others to do so. It says he {Palpatine} used it {the dark side} to influence his fleets and soldiers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which has nothing to do with Battle Meditation. 😐
I didn't say it did, my son.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't suggest politics. I suggested Palpatine's death caused chaos because he was the person in charge of everything and when the person in charge of everything dies with no one to step up through the chain of command then there's chaos. His death is also obviously a severe detriment to morale.
Aka politics. But both excerpts cite the Force, not politics.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except the man was doing it in the very battle you're trying to establish as the basis for galaxy wide BM. Try to actually think this through, Tempest. You're claiming that Palpatine's death in the Battle of Endor caused mass chaos because he was no longer performing his BM. Except he was having someone else perform BM in that battle. So if he's not using Battle Meditation then why would his death cause chaos by a lack of Battle Meditation? 😬
I'm saying that Sheev used the dark side to influence the Empire, which is explicitly confirmed by two excerpts. No Sheev means no dark side to influence the Empire. Declann is inconsequential. The first excerpt doesn't say Admiral Declann was the cohesive force to the Empire. The second excerpt doesn't say Admiral Declann used the Force to guide fleets and soldiers and shape governments. It says Sheev.
It's all about Sheev, bro. Sheev owns this thread.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept. I mean, Palpatine was able to cloud the vision of the entire jedi order on a galactic scale and maintain it while not actively meditating. Sidious' control over the dark side was just that great. No other sith before or after him compares.
Neph's just bitter that Sidious is still king and that everyone's going to forget about Vitiate and Bane in less than 5 years.
Not jealous, I just find this utterly absurd.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. It says Palpatine was the cohesive agent to the Empire, not just the Imperials at Endor.
The quote was written to describe the panic after Sidious' death and the Death Star getting f'ed up. The whole quote is this:
"The first bridge explosion took Green Leader with it; the subsequent uncontrolled joyride snagged ten more fighters, two cruisers, and an ordnance vessel. By the time the whole exothermic conglomerate finally crashed into the side of the Death Star, the impact was momentous enough to actually jolt the battle station, setting off internal explosions and thunderings all through its network of reactors, munitions, and halls.
For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.
Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, coughdisruption of chain-of-command.cough Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruisers - smelling fear in the enemy - merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.
For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected - this was simply where it led.
Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear."
It's only talking about the guys in the Death Star.
And of course Palpatine was the cohesive force for the Empire. But the novel isn't talking about the entire empire nor does it describe panic across the empire, just this one battle. And that doesn't have anything to do with battle meditation.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except that excerpt makes no reference to him employing others to do so. It says he {Palpatine} used it {the dark side} to influence his fleets and soldiers.
Just like Tarkin used the Death Star to destroy Alderaan. But he didn't push the button himself. Don't be so literal, the actions of those under someones command can be spoken of as if the person of authority did them.
And like I said, you can use Battle Meditation...... and not have to use it across the entire galaxy. He could have just gone and done it. At the absolute maximum he does it across the galaxy, not over the entire galaxy. That's frankly a retarded interpretation.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I didn't say it did, my son.
Then why mention it in this debate about Palpatine's battle meditation?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Aka politics. But both excerpts cite the Force, not politics.
AKA Command, leadership, cult of personality etc.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm saying that Sheev used the dark side to influence the Empire, which is explicitly confirmed by two excerpts. No Sheev means no dark side to influence the Empire. Declann is inconsequential. The first excerpt doesn't say Admiral Declann was the cohesive force to the Empire. The second excerpt doesn't say Admiral Declann used the Force to guide fleets and soldiers and shape governments. It says Sheev.It's all about Sheev, bro. Sheev owns this thread.
Now who's bending? That he used the Force to influence the Empire doesn't mean battle meditation. That he may be capable of battle meditation doesn't mean galaxy-wide battle meditation. That his forces experience fear after his death does not imply battle meditation. Nothing remotely suggests what you've taken from this. This is not a feat of battle meditation.
You didn't answer my question or remotely support your argument here. There's no reason for the forces at Endor to go nuts from to lack of battle meditation from the guy who isn't using battle meditation. There is no mention of the rest of the empire going nuts from a lack of galaxy-wide battle meditation. In fact theres mass celebration. The only one confirmed to be using battle meditation is Declann.
I guess if you want to get strict with the definition, no, it's not battle meditation since he's not meditating at all times, but it does imply that the empire as a whole was an extension of his will and guided by it via the dark side.
Not sure if you've watched the movie Willow (also a Lucasfilm), but in it, Bavmorta implies that her army was guided by her powers, IIRC. Same with Palpatine, except on a galactic scale. It's not absurd at all. It's just another effect his control over the dark side granted him, just like clouding the visions of thousands of jedi spread across the galaxy despite Yoda's and the rest of the council's attempt to pierce it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
👆
So you agree with everything else? Because you do realize that it's even more impressive in that he doesn't have to meditate in order to maintain such a control over his empire with the dark side on a galactic scale, which is what the quote makes clear, otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for the quote to go on about Palpatine's death causing such a confusion, since 1) he wasn't meditating at the time, as you said, and 2) nobody on the death star other than Vader and Luke knew he was killed. It wouldn't make sense that Palpatine's death diffusing the dark side, thus nondirecting it, would have any impact on the empire, unless he did indeed control his forces with the dark side.
Palpatine made himself the linchpin for the darkside. And he released a shitton of energy when he died. A nexus formed around the area, in fact. The darkside was previously focused through Sidious (and Vader?), so it makes sense that when he died it would suddenly be undirected and start effing shit up.
Regardless, the quote is only talking about the guys on the Death Star. It proves nothing about anything else.